Religion — Page 31

Referring to your actual torment was never a persecution complex, and I should have not rushed to use strong language.  Technically, neither is your above comment, but it sure is much closer to it.  I love how you you define me by the bad parts of the Bible that you decide must be accepted, while you shove the good parts of the Bible that really shape my character and the character of every believing and non-believing person of Western values to the back.  Who do you think you are to define my belief system?  I share the same sacred reverence for my fellow men and women and kindred creatures.  You don't have to believe in "ancient fairy tales," because the more modern ones you cling to seem to suit you just fine: the sort of fairy tales that convince you that I am figuratively hurling stones at you.

It saddens me to read about how you've been injured, but it saddens me further that you've let such injury go to your heart.  You've spoken many times about turning the other cheek and tolerance for others and holding fellow men and women sacred, but apparently that only extends so far for you.  Walk the walk, my friend.

Accepting there are bad and good parts of the Bible is a start.

Denouncing the bad is the best praise one can give to the good.

Amputation is probably the best treatment.

It's hard to find something to mock about the words attributed to Jesus.

This is why Life Of Brian never bothered.

The frame around the character of Jesus makes you want to hug him all the more.

He is inside this hateful culture born from a hateful God and yet he defends the oppressed and heals the sick and gets persecuted for it (I'm sure He wouldn't like being said to have a persecution complex) and never says anything bad about gays. Not once.

I like weird stories, I'm a Doctor Who fan so I have to like them but do I hold stories sacred over people?

I don't mock religions to defend just me if it were just me I would live in a cave far away from the internet.

I hardly have contact with people including sexual contact, as it is so dropping the internet would be easy for me

I can't stand by and have the thing that has marked me out for persecution compared to the thing used by people to mark me out for persecution.

Because I know it's not just me. I had it easy.

If your family and friends were not Mormons would you seek out the book of Mormon, would you be open to it if it sort out you?

Because I didn't chose all the crap that's happened to me, I didn't seek it out, it was everywhere, even in my home, in the hearts of my parents who I love and it came from that book that sits next to the book of Mormon.

Maybe the book is an expression of xenophobia and if that book didn't give a sense of normality to those feelings another book would have or the general feeling of the mob would.

But its the car that carries Jesus.

If it carried Hitler I could throw the whole thing down the toilet but I don't want to throw away Jesus.

He's Buddha to me.

just for the record I too am sorry to hear of the persecution Bingowings has received.  What he fails to release is that I believe the persecution goes against everything I believe Christianity to be about.   

I interpret the Bible differently from you. I don't believe the God of the Old Testament was a hateful God. But I definitely do not understand the rationale behind such commands, and I certainly reject them with everything in me. It is for that reason that I offered (if you read several pages back) that much of the Bible is tainted by man's handling of God's word. I would love to discuss this further, as I feel it merits discussion. But instead, I want to first try to do the Christ-like thing.

Bingowings, it is clear that your sexual orientation is a very personal and deep subject (as I expect it would be). I've never tried to be disrespectful towards you in any way regarding that subject. If I ever have, I apologize. You'll perhaps recall that I defended homosexuals quite publicly on this site:

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Star-Wars-Renascent-NOW-AVAILABLE/post/545384/

(Sadly, it appears Anchorhead got carried away and deleted the worthwhile posts as well as the rubbish)

I will not argue with you further on this. Instead, I hope you'll see that I love ALL my fellow men--even those I fervently disagree with. If you wish to mock my beliefs and my religion, that is your prerogative. I will then likely ignore you so as not to be further hurt by your comments. But hopefully you'll see that I hold no hard feelings against you and forgive me for my own shortcomings as a human being.

To be honest my sexual orientation can go (expletive deleted) itself.

It just there.

I would hardly notice it if the world and her girlfriend didn't bring it up everytime I try to live a quiet life.

I'm not going to marry a woman and furnish my family tree with off shoots from myself.

I feel that honesty is served by answering questions when they are raised (at work and family meetings and such) and then some bright spark kicks off somewhere.

I used to have sex.

I've been going out with the same chap for almost a decade and before him I went out with a different same chap for almost a decade I'm now middle aged, it's not a major part of my life anymore.

But because of my past, my life has played out a bit differently. I have had different experiences and in that sense it's had an impact.

I don't worship a gay deity or sing gay hymns or eat special gay food (I don't even like most show tunes).

Mr fleetime is painfully common and after four decades it just wares me down but the crap in his post comes from that Old Testament that people will not chuck away and those letters of Paul.

And if I were a member of a tribe of American first people I might have a problem with the Book of Mormon.

It is importing the Abrahamic tradition to a convenient location.

Not that Natives of the Americas had uniformly benign faith systems.

The Aztecs were clever people, kind to the elderly, great engineers but they did do a bit too much of the ripping out of hearts and dancing around in other people's skin thing.

I still enjoy the fact that fleetline lives next to Disneyland.

A little bit ironic.

vote_for_palpatine said:

46fleetline - what is your opinion on tvbracket? Is it not the UK's number one brand for tvbrackets?

It would be cool to hear something constructive. Thanks.

darth_ender said:

You forget, Bingo, I wasn't even talking to you initially.  I understand that many have hurt or killed homosexuals in the name of God and with a Bible in their hands.  People have done awful things in the name of God.  I don't justify what they did.  But people have done awful things in the name of just about anything, even seemingly worthy causes, I'm afraid

The difference here being that the Bible in their hands is the thing telling them to do it.

Bingowings said:

thrown in your direction month after month for four decades you will earn the entitlement to call me out on having a persecution complex.

There are economic points to be made about Fascism and I'd be prepared to listen to them. But for obvious reasons I would be uncomfortable hanging with a devotee of Hitler.

You and Warb sound like nice guys but you walk around with a book a vile as Mein Kampf that has been used as the justification for evil above and beyond any attitude you may have about a man putting his penis in another consenting man.

And somehow you feel confused and upset when I poke fun at your pantomime.

I am just poking fun at it.

I'm not throwing bricks at it.

I'm not hanging you for it.

As Bingo has stated here, he is doing you no harm. Relax. Put him on ignore if you need to.

When you talk about your religion and about God, you are merely expressing your beliefs; the exact same thing Bingo is doing now. If reading his beliefs offends you, I recommend the ignore feature. It works really well, so long as you don't feel the need to constantly click to read the posts anyway.

I, for one, like reading Bingo's perspectives.

Normally so do I.  I just kindly asked for a little more respect (directed at you and Puggo, not Bingo) and got what I felt were snarky comments.  I think there is no need at this point, as I think we have worked through the major points of contention.  I have a lot to respond to you about, but I have (unsuccessfully) been trying to stay away, and your replies will require much more time.  Don't worry, I haven't forgotten.

Religion is no match for a blaster at my side.

Warbler said:

Bingowings said:

 but you walk around with a book a vile as Mein Kampf

you should be banned for this.

Why?? Is freedom of speech and free trade of ideas and opinions no longer sacred? Isn't that the singularly greatest thing about the internet?

Read your book, Warb, it is full of a lot of stuff that is very hateful and harmful to many. You are more than content to ignore those things and figure out ways to make them somehow not count, but countless people through the centuries have not done so, and have acted on those vile things. Put blinders on and look the other way all you want, white wash it and ignore it, but it is still there and it has still done great harm. Just because you are willing to whitewash the harmful stuff and look the other way, doesn't mean those who have been beaten down by it need to step aside and refrain from expressing their opinions on that tripe.

If you are getting bent out of shape because you feel your God is being belittled, well, along the lines of something you might say, He should have thought of that before He put that vile stuff in His book.*

*Or allowed, with His omnipotent power, for men to corrupt His book with that stuff.

Bingowings said:

that has been used as the justification for evil above and beyond any attitude you may have about a man putting his penis in another consenting man.

the people that did that must have overlooked a lot of stuff.   

You overlook a lot of it too.

Bingowings said:

And somehow you feel confused and upset when I poke fun at your pantomime.

yeah, imagine us getting upset when you make fun of something we hold sacred.   what a shock. 

Yeah, imagine Bingo not having respect for a book that claims the solution to his lifestyle is putting him to death. And explicitly states that he is dammed to a lake a fire after he dies because of his orientation; and makes modern, decent, and fairly open minded people disapprove of his lifestyle for reasons they openly admit they have no clue.

CP3S said:

Warbler said:

Bingowings said:

 but you walk around with a book a vile as Mein Kampf

you should be banned for this.

Why?? Is freedom of speech and free trade of ideas and opinions no longer sacred? Isn't that the singularly greatest thing about the internet?

I have been told many times by many different people that free speech does not apply to forums.   Yes, he has the right to think and say anything he wants and not get in trouble with any government,  but that doesn't mean he can say whatever he likes on a forum.   If this was my forum, he'd be gone.   He compared the Bible to Mein Kampf, I find extremely offensive.   If I called him an extremely offensive word for gay people that begins with an f,  would you just say "its ok, Warb has the right to say anything he like.  If Bingo doesn't like it, he can be put Warb on ignore"?

CP3S said:

but countless people through the centuries have not done so, and have acted on those vile things.

and doing so, they've ignored other parts of the Bible.   

CP3S said:

If you are getting bent out of shape because you feel your God is being belittled, well, along the lines of something you might say, He should have thought of that before He put that vile stuff in His book.*

I'll tell you what I am bent out of shape about,  I am sick of the double standard that is applied to Christianity.   If people made comments about Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc, that have been about Christianity, they'd be labeled a bigot.     Can you imagine how offended a Muslim would be if he heard someone compare the Koran to Mein Kampf?    I constantly hear comedians on TV make jokes about Christianity, that they would never get away with making about Islam or other religions.   I am sick and tired of it, I can no longer stand by and see my religion mocked.   I want Christianity shown the respect that I and the rest of you show to other religions.   

oh, thanks for called the Bible tripe, very nice of you.     

CP3S said:

Bingowings said:

that has been used as the justification for evil above and beyond any attitude you may have about a man putting his penis in another consenting man.

the people that did that must have overlooked a lot of stuff.   

You overlook a lot of it too.

whatever.

CP3S said:

Bingowings said:

And somehow you feel confused and upset when I poke fun at your pantomime.

yeah, imagine us getting upset when you make fun of something we hold sacred.   what a shock. 

Yeah, imagine Bingo not having respect for a book that claims the solution to his lifestyle is putting him to death.

if he thinks that is what the Bible says is the solution to his life style, he has clearly missed some passages of the Bible.  (the commandment not to kill, love everyone, if you have sinned you can't cast the first stone . . . )

CP3S said:

And explicitly states that he is dammed to a lake a fire after he dies because of his orientation;

you forget it also gives him a way out.

I can write freely here it's an unmoderated board on a forum not belonging to Warb. 

And the Bible is exactly like Mein Kampf.

It contains some of the most vile material ever put to page and a couple of ideas that actually might work for everyone hidden in the ugliness.

A society run along biblical laws would be arguably worse and at best as bad as anything Hitler put his name to.

Jesus himself felt as much when he stopped the biblically proscribed punishment for adultery.

The Koran is as bad as Mein Kampf but much more artistic.

The Taiping Jing that I read was not the real Taiping Jing.

The Lotus Sutra is as good as anything Jesus said (that's because a lot of it is the same stuff only said earlier).

The Bhagavad Gita is a passable soap opera and a better read than the Book Of Mormon (sorry Ender but the stories are better you be better discussing which one is true with an out and out Hindu).

The Principia Discordia at least makes sense but it reads like it was written by a spaced out junkie who thought he was Satan.

Dianetics is really bad space opera mixed with cod awful self help nonsense.

Have I missed anyone out yet?

So, did anyone do anything fun for Passover?

I like to make gingerbread cookies of Egyptian babies, and bite their heads off. 

TheBoost said:

So, did anyone do anything fun for Passover?

I like to make gingerbread cookies of Egyptian babies, and bite their heads off. 

LOL. TheBoost just won the threat!

TheBoost said:

So, did anyone do anything fun for Passover?

I like to make gingerbread cookies of Egyptian babies, and bite their heads off. 

*sigh*

Warbler said:

I have been told many times by many different people that free speech does not apply to forums.   Yes, he has the right to think and say anything he wants and not get in trouble with any government,  but that doesn't mean he can say whatever he likes on a forum.   If this was my forum, he'd be gone.   He compared the Bible to Mein Kampf, I find extremely offensive.   If I called him an extremely offensive word for gay people that begins with an f,  would you just say "its ok, Warb has the right to say anything he like.  If Bingo doesn't like it, he can be put Warb on ignore"?

It doesn't apply to forums, because it is a privately owned forum. But the moderator should have no reason to want to stifle it here. Jay has always been very welcoming to the free exchange of ideas, even when he disagrees with them.

You find it extremely offensive that he compared the Bible to Mein Kampf, and both Bingo, plenty of others, and I find some of the stuff in the Bible extremely offensive.

So it goes.

Also, calling someone something extremely belittling is very different. I am sure you are intelligent enough to see the difference.

CP3S said:

but countless people through the centuries have not done so, and have acted on those vile things.

and doing so, they've ignored other parts of the Bible.   

But not ignored others. The Bible is still responsible. And homosexuals were being killed thanks to the things written in the Bible long before Jesus' love one another, and he who is without no sin stuff was added onto it. Yet, it is still in there, and people still act on it.

CP3S said:

If you are getting bent out of shape because you feel your God is being belittled, well, along the lines of something you might say, He should have thought of that before He put that vile stuff in His book.*

I'll tell you what I am bent out of shape about,  I am sick of the double standard that is applied to Christianity.   If people made comments about Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc, that have been about Christianity, they'd be labeled a bigot.     Can you imagine how offended a Muslim would be if he heard someone compare the Koran to Mein Kampf?    I constantly hear comedians on TV make jokes about Christianity, that they would never get away with making about Islam or other religions.   I am sick and tired of it, I can no longer stand by and see my religion mocked.   I want Christianity shown the respect that I and the rest of you show to other religions.   

Hey, man, you know me well enough to know that I don't hesitate to tear into Islam for its offenses. In fact, you've defended Islam from my charges against it on multiple occasions. I'll gladly call out any other religion that teaches horrible things too.

oh, thanks for called the Bible tripe, very nice of you.  

  I was referring to certain parts of the Bible. 

CP3S said:

Bingowings said:

And somehow you feel confused and upset when I poke fun at your pantomime.

yeah, imagine us getting upset when you make fun of something we hold sacred.   what a shock. 

Yeah, imagine Bingo not having respect for a book that claims the solution to his lifestyle is putting him to death.

if he thinks that is what the Bible says is the solution to his life style, he has clearly missed some passages of the Bible.  (the commandment not to kill, love everyone, if you have sinned you can't cast the first stone . . . )

Okay, but it does say those things. Bingo admitted he rather liked the teachings of Jesus, and is rather fond of the guy (as am I). He also has agreed with you that a lot of people have ignored those parts and focused on listening to some of the less kind things the book as a whole teaches.

CP3S said:

And explicitly states that he is dammed to a lake a fire after he dies because of his orientation;

you forget it also gives him a way out.

Yes, by changing his lifestyle, being straight, and finding Jesus.

BS!

Warbler said:

TheBoost said:

So, did anyone do anything fun for Passover?

I like to make gingerbread cookies of Egyptian babies, and bite their heads off. 

*sigh*

Get that man a headless cookie!

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

Sorry if I missed it, but has anyone mentioned FSM yet?

Finite State Machines are cool ;-D

CP3S said:

Warbler said:

I have been told many times by many different people that free speech does not apply to forums.   Yes, he has the right to think and say anything he wants and not get in trouble with any government,  but that doesn't mean he can say whatever he likes on a forum.   If this was my forum, he'd be gone.   He compared the Bible to Mein Kampf, I find extremely offensive.   If I called him an extremely offensive word for gay people that begins with an f,  would you just say "its ok, Warb has the right to say anything he like.  If Bingo doesn't like it, he can be put Warb on ignore"?

It doesn't apply to forums, because it is a privately owned forum. But the moderator should have no reason to want to stifle it here. Jay has always been very welcoming to the free exchange of ideas, even when he disagrees with them.

I'm just saying if it were my forum, he'd be gone.   Religion is a very sensitive topic,  and Bingowings shows no sensitivity at all. 

CP3S said:

Also, calling someone something extremely belittling is very different. I am sure you are intelligent enough to see the difference.

I guess I must be stupid, because I don't see the difference.

one is bigotry against a sexual preference

the other is bigotry against a religion

CP3S said:

CP3S said:

but countless people through the centuries have not done so, and have acted on those vile things.

and doing so, they've ignored other parts of the Bible.   

But not ignored others. The Bible is still responsible.

is the Bible itself responsible or the people that fail to understand the love everyone stuff? 

CP3S said:

And homosexuals were being killed thanks to the things written in the Bible long before Jesus' love one another, and he who is without no sin stuff was added onto it.

those people must have forgotten about a certain commandment about killing  found in Exodus 20.

CP3S said:

Yet, it is still in there, and people still act on it.

bigots, not true Christians.

CP3S said:

CP3S said:

If you are getting bent out of shape because you feel your God is being belittled, well, along the lines of something you might say, He should have thought of that before He put that vile stuff in His book.*

I'll tell you what I am bent out of shape about,  I am sick of the double standard that is applied to Christianity.   If people made comments about Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc, that have been about Christianity, they'd be labeled a bigot.     Can you imagine how offended a Muslim would be if he heard someone compare the Koran to Mein Kampf?    I constantly hear comedians on TV make jokes about Christianity, that they would never get away with making about Islam or other religions.   I am sick and tired of it, I can no longer stand by and see my religion mocked.   I want Christianity shown the respect that I and the rest of you show to other religions.   

Hey, man, you know me well enough to know that I don't hesitate to tear into Islam for its offenses. In fact, you've defended Islam from my charges against it on multiple occasions. I'll gladly call out any other religion that teaches horrible things too.

well at least you apply a double standard.  

CP3S said:

CP3S said:

Bingowings said:

And somehow you feel confused and upset when I poke fun at your pantomime.

yeah, imagine us getting upset when you make fun of something we hold sacred.   what a shock. 

Yeah, imagine Bingo not having respect for a book that claims the solution to his lifestyle is putting him to death.

if he thinks that is what the Bible says is the solution to his life style, he has clearly missed some passages of the Bible.  (the commandment not to kill, love everyone, if you have sinned you can't cast the first stone . . . )

Okay, but it does say those things. Bingo admitted he rather liked the teachings of Jesus, and is rather fond of the guy (as am I). He also has agreed with you that a lot of people have ignored those parts and focused on listening to some of the less kind things the book as a whole teaches.

he must have said that stuff I after I started ignoring him. 

CP3S said:

CP3S said:

And explicitly states that he is dammed to a lake a fire after he dies because of his orientation;

you forget it also gives him a way out.

Yes, by changing his lifestyle, being straight, and finding Jesus.

BS!

fixed.

Mocking a repressive belief system isn't the same as limiting the freedoms of a human being.

Religions aren't Soylent Green.

The are followed by people but they aren't hurt by words or actions. The only thing that can hurt a religion is people not belonging to it any more and unless you want to go back to enforcing religion by torture and execution people will eventually drift off anyway if the belief system doesn't match the spirit of the times.

The Anglican Church is pretty liberal, rather progressive and even it can't hold onto it's congregation.

Perhaps Consumerism is part of the issue. People have got used to constructing their own life bubble out of prefabricated components. They buy a chair from here, a sofa from there, a pizza base with toppings a, b and d.

They haven't got the time to learn all the rules of one religion, turn up every Friday, Saturday or Sunday and do the rituals. They would rather have the best bits of all the world religions. Other countries less bogged down in the choicescapades of modern life still can bow at the appointed time or spend hours meditating in deference to tradition.

It is really rare to find a devotee of one religion who is following a different faith from their parents. I doubt if many have even bothered to look into the religions of other families or countries. It's easier to eat what is in front of you.