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Religion — Page 27

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Trooperman said:

Think about it- through the millenia, why have different peoples from completely different backgrounds, livelihoods, times, and social status turned to God if He didn't exist?

The most popular religious affiliation in the most populous country today is "agnostic/atheist".

Also, many countries have certain religions because they were foisted upon them by crusaders hundreds of years ago.

Now, having said all of this, I have no problem with someone believing whatever religion they want, and I have no intention of trying to regulate someone's religion (as long as they aren't hurting others).  Where I have a problem is when people want to use religion as the basis for law.

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

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darth_ender said:

This thread was started to promote understanding, not alienation. What I hope to read about are things like the discussion on birth control, a perfectly valid discussion. Or perhaps we could hear more about why someone does not believe: that's very interesting and worthy of discussion. What I do not want to read about is why I shouldn't believe, or why someone else shouldn't believe. And what I want to hear least about are sarcastic comments about a someone else's spiritual experiences and how they falsely equate to Star Wars folklore. I sorta consider that in bad taste.

If avoiding being offended is your goal reading the internet is probably not a good idea. Starting threads around religion is also probably not advised.

People hold beliefs sacred regardless of reason or logic.

Reason and logic are within the toolbox of discussion and therefore bound to be deployed in a discussion about religion and therefore bound to eventually lead to someone being offended.

If you believe that the Bible or the Book Of Mormon are fiction, myth or cultural colonialist propaganda, comparing it to Star Wars is obvious.

If you are serious Jedi cultist (and there are probably some) and someone says they find themselves offended to have their holy books compared to the teachings of Yoda or Kenobi they too will be offended that their beliefs aren't being taken seriously.

Also if you are a devotee of one of those religions that look down on Frink's naked body verily thou is justly screwed.

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Everyone looks down on my naked body.  I'm only 3'-7" tall.

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One of my lifelong friends from high school (gasp, over 35 years ago) is gay, and came from a very religious family.  His dad was musical director at a large church here in town.  My friend and I used to have long discussions about religion when we were in high school - he trying to convert me, and me resisting.  Although he was gay, I didn't know it, and he was (as I learned later) trying very hard not to be.

Finally, when he got to be about 35, he gave up trying and came out.  (I knew something was up when I got a "Happy Holidays from Santa" christmas card instead of a "Celebrate the light of Jesus" christmas card - but I digress). His family was in agony, and for years told him he was going to hell and rejected him.  They treated him horribly.  In the meantime, he developed what was to become a longterm relationship with a nice guy.  His family wouldn't allow his partner into their home.

After several years of this, his father became very ill and was a few months away from dying.  My friend's partner is a nurse, and volunteered to take care of the father while he was dying (despite the family's rejection of them both).  Eventually, faced with no alternative, the parents relented.  The partner moved in and took care of the father right up until his death.  After that, the rest of the family changed their tune, and welcomed them both into their lives.

I cannot believe that my friend and his partner are sinners.  I think they are saints.  And if there is a God, he better not send them to hell.  If he does, he is an evil God indeed.

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

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There probably isn't a Hell away from Earth but I believe in Limbo :

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xhonzi said:

CP3S said:

One night, I met this really fun and attractive blond, we hit it off and talked for hours. Eventually we went back to her place, stayed up half the night watching movies, started making out, and things escalated. I woke up beside her the next morning, the sun shining golden on her curly hair and reflecting off the smooth skin of her naked body. I felt overwhelmed with warmth, excitement, happiness, anticipation. As it should be. No guilt. I'd always felt guilt in the past, even when things didn't go anywhere near as far as they had gone the night before. That day I was able to admit to myself that I was agnostic.

God doesn't want people to abstain from sex.  Just the kind of sex that screws up (pun probably not intended) their lives or the lives of any children that might enter into the fray.

Awesome! I think most of my old Mormon friends (grew up in Southeast Idaho, so that was pretty much every friend I had from pre-school through high school) would frown pretty harshly on my promiscuous sex life, but it is nice to know that if there is a God, he may well be okay with it. Nobody's life has been screwed up by it yet, no younglings have accidentally entered the fray, and I am always very safe. 

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Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

The most popular religious affiliation in the most populous country today is "agnostic/atheist".

That is about to change very quickly, my friend. 

Time to get some popcorn, relax, and enjoy the show.  We are in for one heck of a ride this year...

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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Trooperman said:

TV's Frink said:

Serious question now...if this is the case (and it does make sense to me, btw), what do so many religions have against birth control?

Well, it introduces something man-made and artificial into the sex act, which is natural, which makes it less about sharing with another person and more about self-gratification or mutual masturbation.

I've had lots of sex with condoms, while it is always nice to be in a monogamous relationship with someone you know and trust and can toss the condoms and use some other form of birth control with nothing between you, sex with condoms is still sharing something really incredible and pleasing with another person. I've had plenty of sex that was purely self-gratifying with women I've had no feelings toward, but the self-gratifying aspect of it had nothing to do with the prophylactic between us, but everything to do with the attitudes one of both of us had before the act took place.

Looking back on the best, sharing, and most loving sexual experiences I've had, I can't even remember if a condom was used or not. In the end it isn't important (in that aspect) and has zero bearing on any of that. 

 

Trooperman said:

Antibiotics are moral because they save people from disease, which is good. 

Condoms save people from disease too! So how are they immoral? In fact, antibiotics run the risk of "super germs" and are totally meddling with the body's natural immunity functions. Condoms just create a barrier preventing/minimizing contact with potential infections baring body fluids. I feel like antibiotics are much bigger offenders at changing the natural way things are suppose to work.

 

Think about it- through the millenia, why have different peoples from completely different backgrounds, livelihoods, times, and social status turned to God if He didn't exist?

Because the world and the universe is an incredible and complex thing, and up until relatively recently, "magic" was the best answer people could come up with to explain it.

A WIZARD DID IT!

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^^Just out of curiousity, why are you called "Demonic" Ewok?

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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@Bingo, c'mon, we've had discussion where others' views on homosexuality have offended you, and clearly you became defensive. I don't blame you. The Internet does offend. But I gave my comment in order to avoid a discussion that devolves into the simplistic religion-bashing. It's not at that point now, not even close, but I fear it could go that way. There is a lovely atheist thread where religion bashing can go on for all I care. But since I started this thread, I feel a certain sense of ownership, and part of that ownership includes a desire to enhance understand rather than stifle it. I have been having these discussions for years, I know that people who think from a purely logical viewpoint see faith as a childish concept, or perhaps willful ignorance at best. I don't agree, and I myself find them ignorant to a different form of seeking knowledge. But we can all get along, as long as all parties involved keep it civil. Mocking someone because he relies on faith or she feels deeply that there is a God or they interpret God differently may feel sophisticated, but really it's just childish. It is not reason or logic I critique, but rather mocking tones or the need to prove something. Someone can share why they don't believe, and perhaps challenge me to follow the same methods. But repeatedly saying that the reasons I do believe are a little silly or hilarious are rather counterproductive, both the the mutual relationship as well as in trying to win converts. I am not trying to prove God exists, but rather share my reasons. I've attempted to be respectful, even when I've disagreed. I think we all owe each other that courtesy. I'm not saying anyone is intentionally trying to offend, but I am urging caution that we do our best to avoid it.

@Puggo, I as a Mormon have a bit of a different interpretation of God's mercy and his willingness to forgive than most of Christendom: we tend to be rather liberal in our interpretation of God's grace. While we believe homosexuality to be wrong in itself, I have no doubt that God will be merciful and judge your friend more by his character than by his sexual preferences.

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Trooperman said:

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

The most popular religious affiliation in the most populous country today is "agnostic/atheist".

That is about to change very quickly, my friend. 

Time to get some popcorn, relax, and enjoy the show.  We are in for one heck of a ride this year...

Lol. No it isn't.

So, would you consider deconversion if this time next year the number of atheist and agnostics are still on the rise and this year ends up not being anymore heck of a ride than the last several?

Clearly, you've received some insider information from God regarding some of the bad things he has planned to do to people (in the name of fighting evil and spreading the light, of course) this unlucky 13th year of the 2000's, if those things don't come to pass (as they never do when such predictions are made), will that shake your faith any?

Just curious. I'm really not trying to mock. But I do find the claim you made to be a little bold, and the popcorn and relax part a little alarming (though that is based on an assumption that the "heck of a ride this year" is going to be some sort of calamity, I suppose it could be something wonderful and miraculous that your are expecting).

 

As for Demonic Ewok: On the old forum software, the avatar uploading feature was broken, so we only had so many pictures to chose from. Since there was only a small pool of avatars, a lot of users all had the same avatars. One of the avatars was an Ewok with photoshopped glowing red eyes. It was pretty awful looking, which I assume is why I had never seen another member using it, and so in the interest of uniqueness, I adopted it as my own. 

Once we got the new forum software and could upload our own avatars, I immediately uploaded the same old tacky avatar and continued to use it for the longest time.

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CP3S said:

Clearly, you've received some insider information from God regarding some of the bad things he has planned to do to people (in the name of fighting evil and spreading the light, of course)

Indeed.  Except there are no bad things- only good things.  So you are incorrect there.

CP3S said:

this unlucky 13th year of the 2000's, if those things don't come to pass (as they never do when such predictions are made), will that shake your faith any?

Unlucky for you, friend- not for the rest of us! 

To answer your question, my faith will not be shaken in the slightest.  It is unassailable.

CP3S said:

Once we got the new forum software and could upload our own avatars, I immediately uploaded the same old tacky avatar and continued to use it for the longest time.

How interesting.

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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Trooperman said:

CP3S said:

this unlucky 13th year of the 2000's, if those things don't come to pass (as they never do when such predictions are made), will that shake your faith any?

Unlucky for you, friend- not for the rest of us! 

Ah, just bad things for all of us heathens.

 

So, what makes you think the rapture/second coming is in 2013?

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Trooperman said:

It is unassailable.

Mine too! Well, I very clearly remember I used to say and believe it was.

 

CP3S said:

Once we got the new forum software and could upload our own avatars, I immediately uploaded the same old tacky avatar and continued to use it for the longest time.

How interesting.

Why is the part you quoted particularly interesting to you?

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Trooperman said:

CP3S said:

this unlucky 13th year of the 2000's, if those things don't come to pass (as they never do when such predictions are made), will that shake your faith any?

Unlucky for you, friend- not for the rest of us! 

Ah, just bad things for all of us heathens.

It's particularly bad news for all those poor kids around the world who were born in the wrong culture.

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

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darth_ender said:

@Bingo, c'mon, we've had discussion where others' views on homosexuality have offended you, and clearly you became defensive. I don't blame you. The Internet does offend. But I gave my comment in order to avoid a discussion that devolves into the simplistic religion-bashing.  

The difference being I belong to a number of groups that have been targeted and killed because of this nonsense and nobody used reason and logic to defend their homophobia.

They just point to a spooky voice or some old scribbles or new scribbles that they claim are old.

If I went around burning Catholics or beating Mormons to death or kicking people out of the house because they may bring the shame of being a Hindu onto my family I could have a bit more sympathy for your comparison.

It's not even if religion is the same thing as believing in the other worldly.

It's organised and highly funded. so a better comparison would be to compare criticism of religion with criticism of nightclubs with an element of politicised homosexual lobbying.

I'm not even sure if such places still exist in the western world. 

Just noticed who wrote post 666 on this thread.

Why am I not surprised?

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Bingowings said:

darth_ender said:

@Bingo, c'mon, we've had discussion where others' views on homosexuality have offended you, and clearly you became defensive. I don't blame you. The Internet does offend. But I gave my comment in order to avoid a discussion that devolves into the simplistic religion-bashing.  

The difference being I belong to a number of groups that have been targeted and killed because of this nonsense and nobody used reason and logic to defend their homophobia.

You do realize that not all of us religious people approve of that kind of stuff, right?   

I many not approve of homosexuality, but I don't hate homosexuals.    I really can't stand that Christianity has been used to justify hatred of certain groups of people.   

be careful of mistakenly assuming that all those that believe in God  persecute your kind.  

Bingowings said:

If I went around burning Catholics or beating Mormons to death or kicking people out of the house because they may bring the shame of being a Hindu onto my family I could have a bit more sympathy for your comparison.

you may not go around burning Catholics or beating Mormons, but you seem to think they are all silly and stupid for believing.    I don't recall ever claiming that you are silly or stupid to be homosexual.   

Bingowings said:

It's organised and highly funded. so a better comparison would be to compare criticism of religion with criticism of nightclubs with an element of politicised homosexual lobbying.

somehow, I fail to understand that comparison.  

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Warbler said:

I many not approve of homosexuality, but I don't hate homosexuals.  

 

I don't recall ever claiming that you are silly or stupid to be homosexual.   

And yet, you don't "approve."  Not much difference there when you are the target.

 

I hear this a lot (even here), where people who are religious say they don't hate homosexuals, but they don't approve of homosexuality.  There's no difference between that and saying you don't hate black people, but you don't approve of people being black.

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Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

One of my lifelong friends from high school (gasp, over 35 years ago) is gay, and came from a very religious family.  His dad was musical director at a large church here in town.  My friend and I used to have long discussions about religion when we were in high school - he trying to convert me, and me resisting.  Although he was gay, I didn't know it, and he was (as I learned later) trying very hard not to be.

Finally, when he got to be about 35, he gave up trying and came out.  (I knew something was up when I got a "Happy Holidays from Santa" christmas card instead of a "Celebrate the light of Jesus" christmas card - but I digress). His family was in agony, and for years told him he was going to hell and rejected him.  They treated him horribly.  In the meantime, he developed what was to become a longterm relationship with a nice guy.  His family wouldn't allow his partner into their home.

After several years of this, his father became very ill and was a few months away from dying.  My friend's partner is a nurse, and volunteered to take care of the father while he was dying (despite the family's rejection of them both).  Eventually, faced with no alternative, the parents relented.  The partner moved in and took care of the father right up until his death.  After that, the rest of the family changed their tune, and welcomed them both into their lives.

sad story.  If I found out that a family member of mine were homosexual, while I may not approve, I would not bar them from my life nor would I bar the person they chose as their partner.    My family is my family I love them no matter what they do.    

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

I cannot believe that my friend and his partner are sinners.  I think they are saints.  And if there is a God, he better not send them to hell.  If he does, he is an evil God indeed.

I believe we are all sinners in one way or another.   As for whether or not homosexuals go to hell,   that is up to God and not me to decide.    But if God were send them to hell just for the sin of homosexuality, he'd have send all of us to hell because, again, we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

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TV's Frink said:

Warbler said:

I many not approve of homosexuality, but I don't hate homosexuals.  

 

I don't recall ever claiming that you are silly or stupid to be homosexual.   

And yet, you don't "approve."  Not much difference there when you are the target.

I don't target homosexuals.   You know from reading my posts in the political thread, that I defend the right to be gay and that I defend gay rights(the right to be in the military, the right to be married under the law, etc).

TV's Frink said:

I hear this a lot (even here), where people who are religious say they don't hate homosexuals, but they don't approve of homosexuality.  There's no difference between that and saying you don't hate black people, but you don't approve of people being black.

I could try to argue that there is a difference, but I do not want to offend.  

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I think when you say you don't approve, you offend, so I wouldn't worry about it now.