Info: Re-mixed audio tracks on video releases — Page 7

I'm glad to hear the mono Vertigo is available in DTS; this would be superior to any Hi-Fi VHS/Beta preservations, correct?

Speaking of Hitchcock remixed audio tracks, does anyone know if the UK Set has the UK version of Psycho BD with the lossless mono track? I'd like to import and kill two birds with one stone; I'll pick up the mono Vertigo when it eventually comes out as a single.

SilverWook said:

Not "lossless" but a damn sight better than the 192kps DD track most original mixes are relegated to.

Interesting. Okay. Even better than a DTS track, not Dolby?

I read over at the HTF a while back the UK Psycho Blu has a lossless mono track, and includes the AHP episode that was on the two disc DVD.

The single UK Psycho BD definitely has it, but I'm just not sure about the one in the UK box set.

TServo2049 said:

 

Another thing which needs to be captured is a PCM mono track from an LD of The Wizard of Oz (perhaps the "Ultimate Oz" box set?). All DVD/Blu-ray releases from 1999 onward have a weird error in the parlor scene in Kansas; before '99, Dorothy said "Oh, Toto, don't..." but in all the DVD/Blu-ray releases except for the original MGM one, it cuts off mid-sentence. Even the "restored" mono track on the more recent releases has this problem.

I did a capture of Ultimate Oz tonight but it's D->A->D. Let me know if you still want it or not.

To answer the first post, yes- I can confirm the ESCAPE FROM NEW YORK Bluray (released in the States by Fox) also has a 2 channel mix that **is** the original Dolby Stereo mix. ESCAPE FROM NEW YORK, while being an MGM title, is thankfully released in the States by Fox. Correct music cues, effects, directional moments, etc are intact on the 2nd Dolby Digital 2.0 English track. If MGM had released it on home video via Bluray, the original track would be missing.

The same goes for virtually all Warner Brothers releases. If the soundtrack is remixed, one can almost be assured the original, be it mono or multi-track, is now out. BEN HUR won an academy award for its audio mix. So where is the original 1959 multi-channel mix? Ditched in favor of an all new 5.1 mix, fresh with all new surrounds and added sound effects. The old laserdiscs used the original mix, with the only downside being it was a Dolby Surround mixdown.

Fox region 1 releases are to be commended for (almost) always retaining original mixes. The latest PREDATOR Bluray release had some altered dialog (forget the exact spot in the movie) but they also included the original mix via a Dolby Digital 4.0 discrete track. The Star-Wars releases, of course were exempt to this general Fox policy, as Lucasfilms had full control over those releases. Vintage Scope and 70mm Fox bluray and DVD releases will sometimes have new 5.1 tracks. On occasion these remixes may center any dialog that was originally directional in nature (ie: tracked the action on screen). Sometimes the directional audio is retained, but slightly pulled in to better match the smaller TV displays. Again, thankfully most Fox releases retain a 4.0 mix.

Of personal interest to me are the two upcoming SENSURROUND titles due to be released on bluray this year: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (1978 version) and EARTHQUAKE. For the last DVD version of Earthquake, Universal decided to do a new sub-par 5.1 remix, but included an optional 3.1 track "original Sensurround mix" which was not the original 3 track stereo mix, and the LFE channel didn't even utilize the original cue tones to trigger the original Sensurround generator. The LFE track on that track is undecoded junk. Nothing at all like the original mix which shook plaster from theater ceilings. When Battlestar Galactica was released in theaters, Sensurround had been modified to run from an optical track, with the sensurround portion DBX encoded. And for Battlestar, there were also tones to make the LFE effects directional in nature for those theaters so equipped. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensurround I was able to hear Battlestar with Sensurround Type III decoding during its original run, and the directional bass cues were very apparent & effective.

When Universal released Battlestar (and Midway & Rollercoaster) they went with the rarely used Dolby 1.1 format (center channel plus LFE) which is correct. Problem is - for all three titles, the DBX type II noise reduction for the LFE tracks was never decoded. And the LFE levels are horribly low. As for the original directional bass cues? - Gone. Given new bluray releases are around the corner, I would love to see this brief audio format finally presented properly. But I'm not holding my breath.

A few people have asked about CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND, and based on my brief spot checking against an old beta hi-fi release, the mix essentially sounds the same. With that said, it sounds like on occasion they have taken the original surround track and steered to surround left or right when called for, or applied some decorrelation here or there. In short: Still very respectful to the original 70mm mix.

I've heard 2nd hand the first six STAR TREK movies on laserdisc used the 35mm mixes, while the DVDs (sans the 1st feature, which was a completly remixed directors cut) were culled from the 70mm mixes. Cannot confirm for sure, nor do I know if the 70mm mixes were used for the blurays. I can confirm Star-trek VI was one of the first movies to be tested in Dolby Digital for its theatrical run, and it does have split surround activity.


I'll wrap up with a few random titles (some that I've heard 2nd hand) have been altered, with *no* original mix included:

SUPERMAN (as most know - new effects were added, and while an "original 2.0 Surround track" was added to the DVD release, phase issues screw up the decoding. Get the LD for the best original 35mm audio mix. The 70mm mix, which was the first ever Dolby NR encoded mix with split surrounds, has never been released on any video format. While working on the DVD version, Donner found a 70mm print with split surrounds, and listened to it briefly along with the 35mm mix before opting for a remix)

TERMINATOR (as most know - new effects were added, music cues were screwed up)

CONAN THE BARBARIAN (the bluray's 5.1 remix of the original mono is a mess)

GHOSTBUSTERS

XANADU (1st DVD was original 4.0 mix, 2nd release new botched 5.1 mix)

SUSPIRIA

JURASSIC PARK (original 5.1 DTS theatrical mix ditched in favor of a 7.1 remix, some music and effect levels altered in the process)

TERMINATOR 2

HIGHLANDER (region 1) Movie was remixed in the 1990's. The AC3 LD also has the remix. At least one EU bluray has the original mix as an option.

FANTASIA (original directional Fantasound mix ditched in favor of a new remix)

GREASE

FLASH GORDON (region 1 DVD took the original wide 3 front channels and leaked them into the surrounds for a busier more active surround track. Not sure what mix is on the new Bluray)


There of course are many many more examples, but this is off the top of my head. If someone wanted to compile a master list, that would be awesome.

GregK said:

Of personal interest to me are the two upcoming SENSURROUND titles due to be released on bluray this year: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (1978 version) and EARTHQUAKE... Given new bluray releases are around the corner, I would love to see this brief audio format finally presented properly. But I'm not holding my breath.

Midway is also due for release at the same time. But let's face it - faithful recreation of Sensurround mix - not going to happen. They'll use (I assume) lossless versions of the existing 5.1 and '3.1 Sensurround' remixes. And at the advertised price point they're going to be bare bones - Midway may get the extras from the dvd ported over. I assume a release of Rollercoaster will be just round the corner.

skyjedi2005 said:

Was Buck Rogers in the 25th Century in Sensurround as well?

No - just the four...

Earthquake
Midway
Rollercoaster
Battlestar Galactica

You are correct that the 1st XANADU release was 16x9, but was an older transfer. I'll revise my post to reflect this. The 1st release has 4.0 audio, while the second release has 5.1 audio. The original 4.0 mix didn't have the surround track continually active, when when the surrounds are active - they are certainly noticed. The new 5.1 mix pulls more front info to the back which in turn now sounds smeared and not as distinct, and many of the songs now sound different. If you get a chance, check out the latest DVD release which may be available at a local library if you want to compare. We need the first DVDs audio muxed with the 2nd DVDs video.

I've added FLASH GORDON to my list. If someone has additional information on that title, I can modify it as needed.

The original FLASH GORDON mix had a wide front stage mix, sometimes with dialog being directional - often moving to the left and right speakers tracking the on-screen action. There was an anniversary region 1 DVD edition released a few years back that bled some of the right and left front into the left and right surrounds for a horse-shoe ultra wide effect. Wasn't so distracting when it is a sound effect, but sometimes on screen dialog will now go into the left or right surrounds. Haven't heard the new Bluray yet..

captainsolo said:

Does anybody have the old pan n scan/open matte LDs of Godfather I and II that had digital sound? After watching the BD, I'm fuming over the mono's relegation to the far corner over the nice and clean overdone 5.1 track. Hopefully someone can confirm that these are accurate as I'd love to use them over the surround track.

Doesn't the Bluray have the mono track?

Here's what I've figured out so far about Planet of the Apes:

The original movie was mixed in 4-track stereo and mono, though there is some doubt as to whether the 4-track mix ever saw the light of day (there's a discussion on that subject here: http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=71763&forumID=1&archive=0) - at least the majority of 1968 release prints were mono.

By the time home video rolled around, Chace did one of their pseudo-stereo mix jobs and this is used on all the laserdiscs that I'm aware of (which may not be exhaustive, but I've spent some time searching). DVD and Blu-ray brought questionable 5.1 mixes to the table, BUT the Blu-rays do feature the original mono mix as well so this is the best source that I'm aware of.

It's a similar story for the sequels, though in their cases there was no question of an original stereo mix since they were only ever released in mono. They too follow the path of dubious home video remixes followed by a solid preservation of the original mono on the Blu-ray.

I'm prepared to be corrected on any/all of this, particularly if anyone has more info on the original theatrical releases or laserdiscs that preserve the mono tracks as PCM - this would be especially welcome in comparison to the BDs' basic Dolby Digital.

captainsolo said:

For Earthquake, the two LDs have the original Sensurround mix according to the LDDB forum. The initial pan n'scan has a stereo track that actually was the original transferred directly (so you can even hear the control tones present), and the later widescreen release simply converted the mix to Dolby Surround.

captainsolo said:

So the widescreen Superman LD has the 35mm Dolby Stereo mix without split surrounds?

Jonno said:

Here's what I've figured out so far about Planet of the Apes:

The original movie was mixed in 4-track stereo and mono, though there is some doubt as to whether the 4-track mix ever saw the light of day (there's a discussion on that subject here: <a href="<a href="http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=71763&forumID=1&archive=0)"" title="www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=71763&forumID=1&archive=0)"" target="_blank">http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=71763&forumID=1&archive=0)"</a> title="www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=71763&forumID=1&archive=0)" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=71763&forumID=1&archive=0)</a>" title="www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=71763&forumID=1&archive=0)</a>" target="_blank">http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=71763&forumID=1&archive=0)</a></a> - at least the majority of 1968 release prints were mono.

By the time home video rolled around, Chace did one of their pseudo-stereo mix jobs and this is used on all the laserdiscs that I'm aware of (which may not be exhaustive, but I've spent some time searching). DVD and Blu-ray brought questionable 5.1 mixes to the table, BUT the Blu-rays do feature the original mono mix as well so this is the best source that I'm aware of.

It's a similar story for the sequels, though in their cases there was no question of an original stereo mix since they were only ever released in mono. They too follow the path of dubious home video remixes followed by a solid preservation of the original mono on the Blu-ray.

I'm prepared to be corrected on any/all of this, particularly if anyone has more info on the original theatrical releases or laserdiscs that preserve the mono tracks as PCM - this would be especially welcome in comparison to the BDs' basic Dolby Digital.

 

Hmmm... seems the mono is indeed only available on the US BD set (this comparison only looks at the region B Holland release, but that can probably be taken to represent all of the European releases given Fox's standard operating procedure: http://dvdcompare.net/comparisons/film.php?fid=13793).

FWIW, the US set is terrific and well worth an import if you can play region A discs (which these most certainly are).