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analog said:
To be clear, the 5.1 DTS MA is done/ready?
Can someone (h_h?) comment on this?
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Yes, it's been done for at least a month, maybe more. h_h released all the channels as separate wav files.
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Guspaz said:
I find all the different audio tracks a bit confusing, to be honest. Not complaining about having them, just want to know what the differences are so that I can figure out which to use. Using the v2.0 MKV as a reference here:
There is three 1977 tracks, the difference seems to be the number of channels. Is there a difference between these three? I could understand why there could be a 5.1 and 2.0, but what is the mono track for? Is it different somehow?
What is the difference between the 1977 and 1993 tracks?
Why is does one of the "isolated score" tracks have a bunch of the sound effects and dialog, but only some of it, and the other doesn't?
I guess ultimately it boils down to, should I be listening to the 1977 or 1993 tracks?
Star Wars was released in 1977 with 3 different sound mixes. First there was the dolby stereo mix: a 2 channel matrixed surround sound system that was pretty new back then and wasn't quite mature. You find this mix in LDs and VHS tapes prior to 85.
Then there was the 70mm 4.2 discrete channel surround sound version. This has never been officially released, so Hairy Hen took it upon himself to take the 93 mix - which was based from the 70mm mix stems but had additional sound effects - and recreate the 70mm mix. This involved splitting the matrixed 93 mix into discrete channels, adding an LFE channel and splicing in the 85 mix where ever needed to get rid of the 93 additions.
In terms of content, there aren't really any differences between the dolby stereo and the 70mm. Although note that "close the blast doors" is never said and c3po doesn't give instructions on how to disable the death star's tractor beam.
Then we come to the mono mix, which was created last and was deemed necessary since most theatres in that day only had monaurual sound systems and even though dolby stereo was supposed to be backwards compatible, they didn't want to take that chance with such a new technology.
Now the mono mix has a lot of surprising content changes. There's a new dubbing for Aunt Beru, new alarm sound effects, "Close the blast doors" first appears (not an SE addition like so many people thought in 97), C3PO gives instructions on how to shut down the tractor beam, the radio sound effect at the battle of Yavin is different, etc etc. Here's a more detailed list:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/russdawson/mono/mono1.htm
So the Mono mix is an entity unto itself and has surprisingly never been officially released despite it being George's final approved mix in 77. We have a restoration that was done by a member a while back that was sourced from Europen VHS broadcast recordings.
Now the home video mixes: the 85 mix is probably what you heard growing up in the eighties. It's the stereo version but EQed to sound better on tvs of the time and CPOs speech on how to disable the tractor beam is added.
The 93 mix, like mentioned above, is based on the 70mm mix but has added (some say distracting) sound effects including crashing glass in the detention block shootout. This mix was used on the Definitive Collection LDs, the THX "Faces" collection from 95, and the GOUT.
What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.
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Whilst it would be nice to have a menu driven BD with extras, I personally would much rather have an mkv of the movie with a single lossless soundtrack and all other soundtracks downloadable separately so that I can mux them in as required without having to download more than I need.
In the fullness of time, when Harmy releases the full BD, perhaps he can make available the Bluray structure and supplementary files so that I can simply shoehorn the mkv (converted to m2ts) to match.
I also think any extras should be released on a "bonus" disc.
HD-DVD had a really great feature that allowed external subtitles and even soundtracks to be incorporated into the movie on the primary disc, without them having to be on the primary disc. I really miss that flexibility with Bluray.
I certainly wish Harmy the best in tackling the weird and wonderful world of Bluray authoring.
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Thanks for the explanations. Where does the 5.1 1977 mix come from? It sounds like you're saying the original three were the stereo, the mono, and the 70mm, with the 70mm not being one of the three 1977 mixes included in the MKV?
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The 70mm mix hasn't been officially released in its original form, but the 5.1 version included here is a close recreation of it, which I assembled using various laserdisc sources and a lot of very careful listening. While it doesn't sound exactly the same as the real thing, it is very close, and it would be pretty difficult to make a more accurate version without access to the actual master.
So in effect, the 5.1 mix can be considered to be the audio equivalent of the Despecialized Edition's video work. ;)
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Guspaz said:
Thanks for the explanations. Where does the 5.1 1977 mix come from? It sounds like you're saying the original three were the stereo, the mono, and the 70mm, with the 70mm not being one of the three 1977 mixes included in the MKV?
Oh right, sorry about that. I have edited my post to clarify that point. Thank you Hairy Hen for answering, and I really wish I had a surround sound system to listen to your mix with!
Oh and Guspaz, to answer your question about the different isolated scores - the reason there are two is because there are long bouts of the film that have no music so you have the choice of having something to listen to in between cues or just silence. Whatever your preference is.
What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.
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YanniD said:
Whilst it would be nice to have a menu driven BD with extras, I personally would much rather have an mkv of the movie with a single lossless soundtrack and all other soundtracks downloadable separately so that I can mux them in as required without having to download more than I need.
In the fullness of time, when Harmy releases the full BD, perhaps he can make available the Bluray structure and supplementary files so that I can simply shoehorn the mkv (converted to m2ts) to match.
I also think any extras should be released on a "bonus" disc.
HD-DVD had a really great feature that allowed external subtitles and even soundtracks to be incorporated into the movie on the primary disc, without them having to be on the primary disc. I really miss that flexibility with Bluray.
I certainly wish Harmy the best in tackling the weird and wonderful world of Bluray authoring.
That is pretty much the plan as I understand it - to have one file, a .mt2s file, and then a separate download of folder structure for putting together a disc. You'll be able to take that m2ts, use mkvmerge, uncheck the audio you don't want, and have an mkv of exactly what you do want :)
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Hairy_hen and Mavimao,
Do any of the soundtracks on Harmy's release have a non-dubbed Aunt Beru? I assumed the 5.1 70mm would, but when listening it's clear that her voice is dubbed, as it doesn't have the echo to it that Uncle Owen's voice has.
EDIT: Ok, according to this thread it appears that even the original prints of Star Wars had a dubbed Aunt Beru. I knew the later releases were dubbed but, it appears it was always dubbed and the later releases were dubbed with a different take. Learn something new everyday.
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All Berus are dubbed, but I think there were two different dubs.
Also, the mono mix was released on 16mm film, which I did my best to capture for the Puggo Grande.
"Close the blast doors!"
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I just watched segments of Harmy's 2.1. Words can't express how exciting it is for an aging kid to see this again in its original splendor. I also need to say that it goes to show you (a) that all the money and "yes men" in the world can't stand in the way of human ingenuity, and (b) this forum's power for good.
"Close the blast doors!"
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Agreed! As much as I am upset with Lucas for not making a high quality version of the OT available, I am thankful in a way as it was the spark that created this wonderful community.
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Infinity said:
Agreed! As much as I am upset with Lucas for not making a high quality version of the OT available, I am thankful in a way as it was the spark that created this wonderful community.
That might have been his master plan all along... ;)
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So let me ask you guys a question. If I was a Star Wars purist what is the definitive audio track? I have heard that The Beatles in mono is considered the "pure" experience over the stereo track, is this similar for Star Wars or are all audio options equal?
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michaelkirschner said:
So let me ask you guys a question. If I was a Star Wars purist what is the definitive audio track? I have heard that The Beatles in mono is considered the "pure" experience over the stereo track, is this similar for Star Wars or are all audio options equal?
Depends on how you define purist, I'm afraid. All three 77 mixes are original, the rest is arguing over relatively minor details.
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michaelkirschner said:
So let me ask you guys a question. If I was a Star Wars purist what is the definitive audio track? I have heard that The Beatles in mono is considered the "pure" experience over the stereo track, is this similar for Star Wars or are all audio options equal?
Don't try to be a purist. Choose the mix that sounds most pleasing to your ears.
I prefer to listen to the mono mix because it's so different from what I grew up with: the 1993 stereo mix on the THX "Faces" set. Also, I only have access to 2.0 speaker configurations.
Do you have a surround-sound setup?
A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.
I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!
—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3
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Mavimao said:
Guspaz said:
I find all the different audio tracks a bit confusing, to be honest. Not complaining about having them, just want to know what the differences are so that I can figure out which to use. Using the v2.0 MKV as a reference here:
There is three 1977 tracks, the difference seems to be the number of channels. Is there a difference between these three? I could understand why there could be a 5.1 and 2.0, but what is the mono track for? Is it different somehow?
What is the difference between the 1977 and 1993 tracks?
Why is does one of the "isolated score" tracks have a bunch of the sound effects and dialog, but only some of it, and the other doesn't?
I guess ultimately it boils down to, should I be listening to the 1977 or 1993 tracks?
Star Wars was released in 1977 with 3 different sound mixes. First there was the dolby stereo mix: a 2 channel matrixed surround sound system that was pretty new back then and wasn't quite mature. You find this mix in LDs and VHS tapes prior to 85.
Then there was the 70mm 4.2 discrete channel surround sound version. This has never been officially released, so Hairy Hen took it upon himself to take the 93 mix - which was based from the 70mm mix stems but had additional sound effects - and recreate the 70mm mix. This involved splitting the matrixed 93 mix into discrete channels, adding an LFE channel and splicing in the 85 mix where ever needed to get rid of the 93 additions.
In terms of content, there aren't really any differences between the dolby stereo and the 70mm. Although note that "close the blast doors" is never said and c3po doesn't give instructions on how to disable the death star's tractor beam.
Then we come to the mono mix, which was created last and was deemed necessary since most theatres in that day only had monaurual sound systems and even though dolby stereo was supposed to be backwards compatible, they didn't want to take that chance with such a new technology.
Now the mono mix has a lot of surprising content changes. There's a new dubbing for Aunt Beru, new alarm sound effects, "Close the blast doors" first appears (not an SE addition like so many people thought in 97), C3PO gives instructions on how to shut down the tractor beam, the radio sound effect at the battle of Yavin is different, etc etc. Here's a more detailed list:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/russdawson/mono/mono1.htm
So the Mono mix is an entity unto itself and has surprisingly never been officially released despite it being George's final approved mix in 77. We have a restoration that was done by a member a while back that was sourced from Europen VHS broadcast recordings.
Now the home video mixes: the 85 mix is probably what you heard growing up in the eighties. It's the stereo version but EQed to sound better on tvs of the time and CPOs speech on how to disable the tractor beam is added.
The 93 mix, like mentioned above, is based on the 70mm mix but has added (some say distracting) sound effects including crashing glass in the detention block shootout. This mix was used on the Definitive Collection LDs, the THX "Faces" collection from 95, and the GOUT.
“Stargazing wizards, stare into the night,
Hurricanes and blizzards, here comes the final fight”
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@michaelkirschner That probably comes down to preference more than anything. If people grew up with one take ('85 mix for instance), they might prefer that, though those same people might be fed up with the years upon years of constant changes and want to experience it as close to what was original as possible. I know I grew up with Full Frame TV broadcast recordings and then VHS, and Episode IV A New Hope in the crawl is somewhat normal to me as is the sound mix that goes with those version, but I'm happiest watching it as it was supposed to be, without revisions (and certainly not cropped to 4:3 anymore).
Also, I've heard from a person whom watched Star Wars an ungodly ~70 times in '77 in a backwater theater that only had the mono track, and steadfastly insists against anything released since then as being at all proper, he's unhappy unless it has the odd sounding Beru and all the other different bits, since he memorized the movie exactly that way. So, watching it as remembered from experiences in '77, be it mono, stereo or the 70mm's take on surround, is another cause for preference.
In short, all tracks have merit and are looked on differently by different people; it is really nice to have all these different audio tracks available, for both viewing pleasure and the sake of preservation.
Personally, I'll stick with the 5.1 70mm reconstruction for most serious viewings, but I won't lie, I'll be checking out the '85 and the '93 as well (can't stomach much more than just spot checking the mono, though, it is just too 'off' for me).
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Harmy said:
They are all distinctly different mixes. The mono mix is very quite different from all the others.
I so want to a have a little featurette on the BD about all the different mixes, explaining how they're different and why they're all there but I don't have enough knowledge of the matter to do it by myself.
Such a featurette would be awesome! Nothing fance required, plain text will do :) Mavimao's summary was very good and informative.
“Stargazing wizards, stare into the night,
Hurricanes and blizzards, here comes the final fight”
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yoda-sama said:
...in '77 in a backwater theater that only had the mono track...
Actually in '77, I believe the term for that sort of theatre was a typical theatre. But yeah, times change and I think that of the original mixes, the 70mm mix has aged best, YMMV.
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Since we're on the subject of audio and this forum is so difficult to search, I'll ask this one question on the subject. I keep seeing people ask if Hairy's 5.1 reconstruction is 'better' than the Blu-ray audio, to which the response is always that it blows it out of the water. What I'm wondering is in what aspects exactly does it best it? Outside of it avoiding obvious SE changes (effects choices, C3P0 tractor beam voice overs, blast doors, etc.), did they somehow mess up how things sound in general; are the audio channels perhaps messed up, or something sound weird throughout, etc.?
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yoda-sama said:
Since we're on the subject of audio and this forum is so difficult to search...
Let me help you:
;)
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yoda-sama said:
What I'm wondering is in what aspects exactly does it best it? ...did they somehow mess up how things sound in general; are the audio channels perhaps messed up, or something sound weird throughout, etc.?
I think an audio guy might have a more technically accurate description of what they did, but in 2004, they really screwed up the audio globally, and they never really undid it. It's really screwed up for sure, but I can't say which knobs the audio guy couldn't stop messing with. All I know is they should have fired him for the 2006 DVDs, and they appear to have promoted him so he could do the Blu-rays. The 97 mix wasn't bad, except for the SE changes.
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Yeah, like I said before, I wasn't really able to tell which one sounded better in direct comparison; that's why I prefer to leave audio work to others.
So, anyway, I was wondering if some of you guys could give me a little advice about rendering (not quite there yet but just want the info) when I'm rendering using x264 and I have the system HDD in my laptop and 1 USB2 HDD and 1 USB3 HDD where should I put what to ensure as fast and smooth a rendering as possible? Like when I rendered the AVCHD, I had the lossless source files and the x264.exe and my .bat file and .avs file on the system disc and I was outputting to the USB3 external disc, which is probably not the best way to do it, so it would be good if someone who has more knowledge and experience with this kind of thing could give me advice on what the best file placement would be within the realm of my setup.
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That link is informative, but not for my question, in it he merely dismisses the 2004 mix (and beyond) as abominable and almost completely invalid, rather than stating actual differences and deficiencies. As CatBus suggested, if an audio guy could give a more technically accurate description, I'd like to know what exactly they messed up with the official mix. I love to hate on the SE's and having even more specific reasons at my disposal to hate them would, strangely, make me happier.