Bingo, you've got to work on this "not mocking" thing. I know you are phrasing it in such a way as to make it look ordinary, but the nature of the Christian Plan of Salvation (with which I am sure you are already quite familiar) is not so easily summed up. Your wording looks condescending.
Oh, and the new Pope is an Argentine! In before Warbler!!!
EDIT: Ah, crud! Boost beat me to it :(
Bingowings said:
So God made man and insists that man obeys him of his free will and because we haven't he has repeatedly punished us with plagues and deluges and wars.
But this hasn't got us being obedient.
So he makes himself into one of us.
Allows himself to be nailed to a plank and hung on a post.
But comes back from the dead so that if we believe this happened we don't have to pay the penalty of hell for being disobedient.
Am I getting this right?
Along with the condescending tone, yes, you're somewhat right.
Bingowings said:
Go on Warb.
Explain to me how one of hundreds of thousands of human beings nailed up by the Romans in anyway makes my life or the life of anyone else who lived later any better than it was if it hadn't happened.
Taking as a given that Jesus existed, was the son of God and died in that fashion.
What does dying for our sins actually mean?
I promise I will not mock you just explain it.
If it's something I can't understand because I'm not the God of the Bible myself, why should this act in any way impress me?
It's a lot like the ending to "Spartacus" which was quite moving.
Honestly this is me not mocking I'm really reflecting back what you guys are telling me.
Have I missed anything?
Well, looks like that new Pope is Cardinal Bergoglio of Argentina! He has called himself Francis.
Bingowings said:
Honestly this is me not mocking I'm really reflecting back what you guys are telling me.
Have I missed anything?
Granted it's abridged, that's it.
Warbler said:
- ST. Peter 30 - 64
- Linus 67 - 76
- ST. Anacletus 79 - 92
- ST. Clement I 92 - 99
- Evaristus 99 - 107
- Alexander I 106 - 115
- ST. Sixtus I 114 or 119 - 124 or 128
- ST. Telesphorus 126 - 137
- Hyginus 136 or 138 - 140 or 142
- ST. Pius I 140 - 154
- Anicetus 154 - April 20, 167
- ST. Soter 166 - 174
- Eleuterus 174 - 189
- ST. Victor 189 - 199
- ST. Zephyrinus 199 - December 20, 217
- Callixtus I 217 - 222
- Urban I 222 - 230
- Pontian July 21, 230 - September 28, 235
- Anterus November 21, 235 - January 3, 236
- ST. Fabian January 10, 236 - January 20, 250
- Cornelius March 6, 251 or March 13, 251 - June 253
- ST. Lucius June 25, 253 - March 5, 254
- Stephen I May 12, 254 - August 2, 257
- Sixtus II August 30, 257 - August 6, 258
- Dionsysius July 22, 259 - December 26, 268
- ST. Felix I January 5, 269 - December 30, 274
- Eutychian January 4, 275 - December 7, 283
- Caius December 17, 283 - April 22, 296
- ST. Marcellinus June 30, 296 - April 1, 304?
- ST. Marcellus I May 308 - 309
- ST. Eusebius April 18, 309 or April 18, 310 - August 17, 309 or August 17, 310
- ST. Miltiades July 3, 311 - January 10, 314
- Sylvester I January 31, 314 - December 31, 335
- Mark January 18, 336 - October 7, 336
- Julius I February 6, 337 - April 12, 352
- Liberius May 17, 352 - September 24, 366
- Damasus I 366 - 384
- Siricius December 384 - November 26, 399
- Anastasius I November 27, 399 - December 19, 401
- Innocent I 401 - March 12, 417
- Zosimus March 21, 417 - December 26, 418
- Boniface I December 28, 418 - September 4, 422
- Celestine I 422 - April 6, 432
- Sixtus III July 31, 432 - August 18, 440
- ST. Leo I September 29, 440 - November 10, 461
- Hilarius November 17(?), 461 - February 28(?), 468
- ST. Simplicius 468 - March 10, 483
- Felix III March 13, 483 - January 3, 492
- ST. Gelasius I 492 - November 21, 496
- Anastasius II November 24, 496 - November 16, 498
- Symmachus November 22, 498 - July 19, 514
- Hormisdas July 20, 514 - 523
- ST. John I 523 - 526
- Felix IV 526 - 530
- Boniface II 530 - 532
- John II January 2, 533 - May 8, 535
- Agapetus I 535 - April 22, 536
- ST. Silverius June 8, 536 - March 537
- Vigilius March 29, 537 - 555
- Pelagius I 556 - March 4, 561
- John III 561 - July 13, 574
- Benedict I June 2, 575 - July 30, 579
- Pelagius II 579 - 590
- Gregory I September 3, 590 - March 12, 604
- Sabinian September 13, 604 - February 22, 606
- Boniface III February 19, 607 - November 12, 607
- Boniface IV September 25, 608 - May 8, 615
- Adeodatus I November 13, 615 - November 8, 618
- Boniface V December 23, 619 - October 25, 625
- Honorius I October 27, 625 - October 12, 638
- Severinus May 28, 640 - August 2, 640
- John IV December 24, 640 - October 12, 642
- Theodore I November 24, 642 - May 14, 649
- Martin I July 5, 649 - 653
- Eugene I August 10, 654 - June 1, 657
- Vitalian July 30, 657 - January 27, 672
- Adeodatus II April 11, 672 - June 17, 676
- Donus November 2, 676 - April 11, 678
- Agatho June 27, 678 - January 10, 681
- ST. Leo II August 17, 682 - June 28, 683
- Benedict II June 26, 684 - May 8, 685
- John V July 12, 685 - August 2, 686
- Conon October 21, 686 - September 21, 687
- Sergius I December 15, 687 - September 8, 701
- John VI October 30, 701 - January 11, 705
- John VII March 1, 705 - October 18, 707
- Sisinnius January 15, 708 - February 4, 708
- Constantine March 25, 708 - April 9, 715
- Gregory II May 19, 715 - February 11, 731
- Gregory III February 11, 731 - November 28, 741
- ST. Zachary December 10, 741 - March 22, 752
- Stephen II March 26, 752 - April 26, 757
- Paul I May 29, 757 - June 28, 767
- Stephen III August 1, 768 - February 1, 772
- Adrian I February 1, 772 - December 25, 795
- Leo III December 27, 795 - June 12, 816
- Stephen IV June 22, 816 - January 24, 817
- Paschal I January 25, 817 - February 11, 824
- Eugene II May 11, 824 - August 27, 827
- Valentine August 31, 827 - October 10, 827
- Gregory IV October 827 - January 25, 844
- Sergius II January 844 - January 24, 847
- ST. Leo IV April 10, 847 - July 17, 855
- Benedict III September 29, 855 - April 17, 858
- Nicholas I April 24, 858 - November 13, 867
- Adrian II December 14, 867 - December 14, 872
- John VIII December 14, 872 - December 16, 882
- Marinus I December 16, 882 - May 15, 884
- Adrian III May 17, 884 - July 885
- Stephen V September 885 - September 14, 891
- Formosus October 6, 891 - April 4, 896
- Boniface VI April 896 - April 896
- Stephen VI May 22, 896 - August 897
- Romanus August 897 - November 897
- Theodore II December 897 - December 897
- John IX January 898 - January 900
- Benedict IV February 1, 900 - July 903
- Leo V late July 903 - mid September 903
- Sergius III January 29, 904 - April 14, 911
- Anastasius III April 911 - June 913
- Lando July 913 or August 913 - February 914 or March 914
- John X March 914 - May 928
- Leo VI June 928 - February 929
- Stephen VII February 929 - March 15, 931
- John XI March 931 - December 935
- Leo VII January 3, 936 - July 13, 939
- Stephen VIII July 14, 939 - October 942
- Marinus II October 30, 942 - May 946
- Agapetus II May 10, 946 - November 8, 955
- John XII December 16, 955 - May 14, 964
- Benedict V May 22, 964 - June 23, 964
- Leo VIII June 23, 964 - March 1, 965
- John XIII October 1, 965 - September 6, 972
- Benedict VI January 19, 973 - June 974
- Benedict VII October 974 - July 10, 983
- John XIV December 983 - August 20, 984
- John XV August 985 - March 996
- Gregory V May 3, 996 - February 18, 999
- Sylvester II April 2, 999 - May 12, 1003
- John XVII May 16, 1003 - December 6, 1003
- John XVIII January 1004 - July 1009
- Sergius IV July 31, 1009 - May 12, 1012
- Benedict VIII May 16, 1012 - April 9, 1024
- John XIX May 1024 - October 1032
- Benedict IX October 1032 - September 1044
- Sylvester III January 20, 1045 - February 10, 1045
- Benedict IX April 1045 - May 1045
- Gregory VI May 5 1045 - December 20, 1046
- Clement II December 25, 1046 - October 1047
- Benedict IX November 1047 - July 1048
- Damasus II July 17, 1048 - August 9, 1048
- ST. Leo IX February 12, 1049 - April 19, 1054
- Victor II April 13, 1055 - July 28, 1057
- Stephen IX August 3, 1057 - March 29, 1058
- Nicholas II January 24, 1059 - July 27, 1061
- Alexander II September 30, 1061 - April 21, 1073
- Gregory VII April 22, 1073 - May 25, 1085
- Victor III May 24, 1086 - September 16, 1087
- Urban II March 12, 1088 - July 29, 1099
- Paschal II August 13, 1099 - January 21, 1118
- Gelasius II January 24, 1118 - January 29, 1119
- Blessed Calixtus II February 1, 1119 - December 13, 1124
- Honorius II December 21, 1124 - February 13, 1130
- Innocent II February 14, 1130 - September 24, 1143
- Celestine II September 25, 1143 - March 8, 1144
- Lucius II March 9, 1144 - February 15, 1145
- Eugene III February 15, 1145 - July 8, 1153
- Anastasius IV July 9, 1153 - December 3, 1154
- Adrian IV December 4, 1154 - September 1, 1159
- Alexander III September 7, 1159 - August 30, 1181
- Lucius III September 1, 1181 - November 25, 1185
- Urban III November 25, 1185 - October 20, 1187
- Gregory VIII October 25, 1187 - December 17, 1187
- Clement III December 19, 1187 - March 20, 1191
- Celestine III March 21, 1191 - January 8, 1198
- Innocent III January 8, 1198 - July 16, 1216
- Honorius III July 18, 1216 - March 18, 1227
- Gregory IX March 19, 1227 - August 22, 1241
- Clestine IV October 25, 1241 - November 10, 1241
- Innocent IV June 25, 1243 - December 7, 1254
- Alexander IV December 12, 1254 - May 25, 1261
- Urban IV August 29, 1261 - October 2, 1264
- Clement IV February 5, 1265 - November 29, 1268
- Gregory X September 1, 1271 - January 10, 1276
- Innocent V January 21, 1276 - June 22, 1276
- Adrian V July 11, 1276 - August 18, 1276
- John XXI September 13, 1276 - May 20, 1277
- Nicholas III November 25, 1277 - August 22, 1280
- Martin IV February 21, 1281 - March 28, 1285
- Honorius IV April 2, 1285 - April 3, 1287
- Nicholas IV February 22, 1288 - April 4, 1292
- Celestine V July 5, 1294 - December 13, 1294
- Boniface VIII December 24, 1294 - October 11, 1303
- Benedict XI October 22, 1303 - July 7, 1304
- Clement V June 5, 1305 - April 20, 1314
- John XXII August 7, 1316 - December 4, 1334
- Benedict XII December 20, 1334 - April 25, 1342
- Clement VI May 7, 1342 - December 6, 1352
- Innocent VI December 18, 1352 - September 12, 1362
- Urban V September 28, 1362 - December 19, 1370
- Gregory XI December 30, 1370 - March 27, 1378
- Urban VI April 8, 1378 - October 15, 1389
- Boniface IX November 2, 1389 - October 1, 1404
- Innocent VII October 17, 1404 - November 6, 1406
- Gregory XII November 30, 1406 - July 4, 1415
- Martin V November 11, 1417 - February 20, 1431
- Eugene IV March 3, 1431 - February 23, 1447
- Nicholas V March 6, 1447 - March 24, 1455
- Callixtus III April 8, 1455 - August 6, 1458
- Pius II August 19, 1458 - August 14, 1464
- Paul II August 30, 1464 - July 26, 1471
- Sixtus IV August 9, 1471 - August 12, 1484
- Innocent VIII August 29, 1484 - July 25, 1492
- Alexander VI August 11, 1492 - August 8, 1503
- Pius III September 22, 1503 - October 18, 1503
- Julius II November 1, 1503 - February 21, 1513
- Leo X March 9, 1513(elected) March 11, 1513(proclaimed) - December 1, 1521
- Adrian VI January 9, 1522 - September 14, 1523
- Clement VII November 19, 1523 - September 25, 1534
- Paul III October 13, 1534 - November 10, 1549
- Julius III February 7, 1550 - March 23, 1555
- Marcellus II April 9, 1555(elected) April 10, 1555(proclaimed) - May 1, 1555
- Paul IV May 23, 1555 - August 18, 1559
- Pius IV December 25, 1559 - December 9, 1565
- ST. Pius V January 7, 1566 - May 1, 1572
- Gregory XIII May 13, 1572 - April 10, 1585
- Sixtus V April 24, 1585 - August 27, 1590
- Urban VII September 15, 1590 - September 27, 1590
- Gregory XIV December 5, 1590 - October 16, 1591
- Innocent IX October 29, 1591 - December 30, 1591
- Clement VIII January 30, 1592 - March 3, 1605
- Leo XI April 1, 1605 - April 27, 1605
- Paul V May 16, 1605 - January 28, 1621
- Gregory XV February 9, 1621 - July 8 1623
- Urban VIII August 6, 1623 - July 29, 1644
- Innocent X September 15, 1644 - January 7, 1655
- Alexander VII April 7, 1655 - May 22, 1667
- Clement IX June 20, 1667 - December 9, 1669
- Clement X April 29, 1670 - July 22, 1676
- Innocent XI September 21, 1676 - August 12, 1689
- Alexander VIII October 6, 1689 - February 1, 1691
- Innocent XII July 12, 1691 - September 27, 1700
- Clement XI November 23, 1700 - March 19, 1721
- Innocent XIII May 8, 1721 - March 7, 1724
- Benedect XIII May 29, 1724 - February 21, 1730
- Clement XII July 12, 1730 - February 6, 1740
- Benedict XIV August 17, 1740 - May 3, 1758
- Clement XIII July 16, 1758 - February 2, 1769
- Clement XIV May 19, 1769 - September 22, 1774
- Pius VI February 15, 1775 - August 29, 1799
- Pius VII March 14, 1800 - August 20, 1823
- Leo XII September 28, 1823 - February 10, 1829
- Pius VIII March 31, 1829 - November 30, 1830
- Gregory XVI February 2, 1831 - June 1, 1846
- Pius IX June 16, 1846 - February 7, 1878
- Leo XIII February 20, 1878 - July 20, 1903
- ST. Pius X August 4, 1903 - August 20, 1914
- Benedict XV September 3, 1914 - January 22, 1922
- Pius XI February 6, 1922 - February 10, 1939
- Pius XII March 2, 1939 - October 9, 1958
- John XXIII October 28, 1958 - June 3, 1963
- Paul VI June 21, 1963 - August 6, 1978
- John Paul I August 26, 1978 - September 28, 1978
- John Paul II October 16, 1978 - April 2, 2005
- Benedict XVI April 19, 2005 - February 28, 2013
- Francis March 13, 2013 - ?
fixed
Bingowings said:
Go on Warb.
Explain to me how one of hundreds of thousands of human beings nailed up by the Romans in anyway makes my life or the life of anyone else who lived later any better than it was if it hadn't happened.
Taking as a given that Jesus existed, was the son of God and died in that fashion.
What does dying for our sins actually mean?
I promise I will not mock you just explain it.
If it's something I can't understand because I'm not the God of the Bible myself, why should this act in any way impress me?
it seems that mrbenja0618 is doing a much better job than I could and as I expected you are being disrespectful to him.
darth_ender said:
Oh, and the new Pope is an Argentine! In before Warbler!!!
EDIT: Ah, crud! Boost beat me to it :(
neither announced who the new Pope was(although both you did say he was from Argentina) and you guys failed to announce what he would be calling himself. Finally, I was first to announce Habemus Papem.
The new pope Francis the 1st, or as I call him, Frankie 1.0.
I hope within the next hour he tweets "Hey Africa, use some freaking condoms!" and "New Rule: No buggering children."
darth_ender said:
Frink, I certainly don't like you better than Leo...
Ah, so we both suck, do we now? ;)
And I didn't even realize English was not Leonardo's first language! He writes like a native, IMO!
[read in an extremely posh accent]
I'm chuffed to bits by your compliment, my dear fellow! Pip pip, cheerio and all that rot!
TheBoost said:
The new pope Francis the 1st, or as I call him, Frankie 1.0.
I could be wrong, but I believe he is just Francis, not Francis I. I think he would only be called Francis I if another Pope takes the name of Francis.
Warbler said: it seems that mrbenja0618 is doing a much better job than I could and as I expected you are being disrespectful to him.
No I'm not.
Do you think I missed anything in my condensed reflection of the meaning of Christ's redeeming death?
As I was saying before. If anyone wants to go deeper on the subject, feel free to PM me.
Bingowings said:
Warbler said: it seems that mrbenja0618 is doing a much better job than I could and as I expected you are being disrespectful to him.
No I'm not.
Do you think I missed anything in my condensed reflection of the meaning of Christ's redeeming death?
mrbenja0618 said:
Along with the condescending tone, yes, you're somewhat right.
Surely the whole point of having an open thread on the subject is to talk openly about it.
Highlight my condescending tone.
Bingowings said:
Surely the whole point of having an open thread on the subject is to talk openly about it.
Highlight my condescending tone.
In earnest, if you weren't trying to be condescending; I apologize.
Feel free to throw your questions my way, Bingo. I can handle them. =)
Warbler said:
I could be wrong, but I believe he is just Francis, not Francis I. I think he would only be called Francis I if another Pope takes the name of Francis.
Thus he shall be known as Francis, Bishop of Rome, First of His Name.
Bingowings said:
Surely the whole point of having an open thread on the subject is to talk openly about it.
you don't want to openly to talk about it, you want to disrespect the
Christian beliefs. You want to mock us and make us seem silly.
Bingowings said:
Highlight my condescending tone.
Bingowings said:
A) FACT so.
B) So what if he is real that doesn't make him automatically worthy of worship.
C) If your next door neighbour did this thing you'd phone the police, Killing someone in a horrid torturous fashion for something that someone who hasn't been born yet will inevitably do is not nice. It's sick!
Warbler said:
Bingowings said:
Papa don't preach.
?
I believe she's in trouble deep.
TV's Frink said:
Warbler said:
Bingowings said:
Papa don't preach.
?
I believe she's in trouble deep.
I'm keeping my baby.
Oh Madonna mia....
*what's that? it's the sound of a bilingual pun going over most of your heads*
TV's Frink said:
Warbler said:
Bingowings said:
Papa don't preach.
?
I believe she's in trouble deep.
huh?
darth_ender said:
Actually, believe it or not, I included an extra couple of sentences discussing atheists who do not fit the "scientific" mold. I removed it because I thought it detracted from my point. Now I see I should have left it. Yes, an atheist can believe in anything...except in a god of any sort: 'a-' meaning 'without,' 'theos' meaning 'god' (of any type), '-ist' meaning 'one who subscribes to that way of thinking.' But they can believe in the tooth fairy, fortune telling, horoscopes, or whatever. I should have been more specific in that I was referring to those who actually claim to hold to a truly scientific mindset. (I was alerted to this common misconception around 5 or 6 years ago when this idiot who wrote for the Arizona Daily Wildcat named Taylor Kessinger wrote a very condescending piece criticizing atheists who were, in his view, superstitious about other things; though he had often been condescending towards Christians without much backlash, you should have seen the responses to that article; I'll see if I can find it online; time lapse...ah, looks like Google gets some hits, but then I get the 404 error).
I don't see why atheists believing silly things is an issue. Buddhist are technically atheists, but obviously believe in spiritualism. It is nothing new. Atheism is not a doctrine.
But don't misunderstand my intention, because you are actually reinforcing my point. I know that scientists know that they do not know everything. They acknowledge that they cannot. Those atheists who are truly scientific admit that they cannot possibly know those things they cannot test, even though they also acknowledge that just because it cannot be tested does not make it nonexistent or unreal. Thus, since God is untestable, a truly scientific atheist cannot with full conviction 'know' that God does not exist, but rather can be firmly convinced based on a perceived lack of evidence. Those that 'know' that God doesn't exist are not acting truly scientifically.
Again, I think you are making scientific thought out to be limiting, in ways that it is not. Science is a method of learning, not a strict doctrine that must shape our every thought.
I am reasonably sure beyond doubt that the Ninja Turtles aren't real. I can't scientifically prove it, but since I don't claim to know it, I am being truly scientific.
I know the Ninja Turtles aren't real, they are merely a work of fiction created for entertainment. Now I am being unscientific.
Do you see how ridiculous this hair splitting is? So what? Atheism isn't a doctrine. Leo can claim to know God doesn't exist, as you, I am sure, would be willing to say you know that Zeus doesn't exist, and he is violating no atheist standards. It is all semantics at this point, and hardly worth wasting time on.
I'd maintain that the vast majority of atheists are also agnostics (Leo, clearly, not being of this group), and that the vast majority of agnostics are also atheists. Fink doesn't believe in a god, though he'd call himself agnostic, he is technically an atheist. In the same way, most atheists will admit that they cannot disprove god or know 100% for sure that a god or god like being doesn't exist, which effectively makes them agnostic on the situation. Ultimately, agnostic is kind of a redundant term. You either believe or you don't believe. If you say, "I don't know for sure, but I don't think so." Then you don't believe. If you say, "I don't know for sure, but I think so." Then you believe. I suppose agnosticism could be reserved for those who just don't care enough to even bother thinking about it in the first place.
I agree. There IS no need to disprove him. It is not a falsifiable experiment. But as such, while one may criticize the testing of the reality of God, one cannot either prove or disprove his existence. Ergo, though one may hold a firm conviction that God does not exist based on a perceived lack of evidence, one cannot truly say with certainty that he/she 'knows' God does not exist.
No disagreement there. But again, I don't think this discussion has relevance to anything at all.
In my mind you are correct in all that you say here, except for a bit of semantics. I won't argue much because I think it beside the point, but just for clarity, atheism does not mean one doesn't believe in certain gods, but rather that one does not believe in ANY gods: completely without belief in a divine being. Thus, I am not an atheist towards Odin or Ra or Jupiter. I don't believe in them, true, but I am still not without belief in a Divine Being. Everything else in the above quote does not disagree with what I am trying to say.
The matter is debatable. Christians were once widely considered to be atheists by the pagan world because they rejected the majority of gods, only choosing to believe in their one God (and this would be the earliest use of the Greek word "atheist", if I am not mistaken.) I feel like saying that you take an atheistic stance on Odin would be more than accurate. But like you said, it is all beside the point.
Nor I. That is not my point. My point is that the religion and those that hold to it are not exactly evidence that God does not exist.
I've never once heard an atheist make this argument before (not to say none ever have). In fact, the first time I've heard this argument was today in mrbenja's post, which felt a bit like a weak strawman argument and had me scratching my head. I didn't address it, because it didn't feel at all worth addressing.
Anyway, I wouldn't worry about it too much. It isn't a common argument, and it certainly wouldn't be used by an intelligent thinker to argue the non-existence of God.
My point is not to prove that God exists with this argument; it is philosophical, not scientific in nature. My point is that atheists and believers follow different standards, and according to those standards, the believer is free to 'know' (even if his/her 'knowledge' contradicts completely with the 'knowledge' of a different brand of believer, and even if the non-believer sees such knowledge as nothing more than foolish, unscientific superstition), while the atheist, FOLLOWING HIS/HER OWN STANDARDS, cannot truly claim to 'know' that God does not exist. Make sense?
Sure, it makes sense. In your original post you seemed to claim that theists are liberated because they don't have these constrictions. I'll agree with you completely on that, if you have no standards for belief (or more loose standards), you are much more free to believe some crazy and out there stuff.