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Video Games - a general discussion thread — Page 286

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zombie84 said:

There is nothing wrong about not paying companies when you buy used shit. That's like giving Ikea a dollar everytime you turn on the lamp you bought at Fred's garage sale 6 years ago. Or giving Honda a dollar every time you bought that used Civic off your friend in 2004. Does any of that make sense? Of course not. If I go to Goodwill and get a Hungry Hungry Hippos board game I don't owe Parker Brothers anything.

It's an odd obsession that VG publishers have developed.  I mostly agree with you.  But there are a few major differences:

A well kept game disc is sold as 'used' but is virtually indistinguishable from a new product, unlike cars, homes, or food.  A closer comparison would be to books, movies, music, and other media, etc...  Which, of course, have endured the 2nd hand market for decades.  

But still there are two major differences... cost for games is signficantly higher than those other ones, and the rate at which the medium develops. 

As you said elsewhere, not playing older games is like not watching 7 year old movies or 10 year old books... except that it's not.  My brand new BD player will play any BD or DVD (and even CDs!) I have in the house, regardless of how old the content is.  My bookshelf holds any book, parchment, scroll or papyra that I've ever procurred and my one and only pair of eyes are capable of reading any of it (or at least looking at the pictures).  Currently, playing retro games (or even current games) requires quite a variety of unreplaceable hardware and each black box only plays a small percentage of my total game collection. 

Therefore, there is less incentive to keep old games around since the relative effort of playing old games is much higher than that of consuming other older media.  A lot of people have old movies and old books that they've already consumed, but fancy the idea that they will consume them again and will need ready access to them.  I think gamers, on average, value their already-played games less and are less likely to keep a large stock of played games... though it sounds like you and I are exceptions to that generality.

Since gaming is an expensive hobby, and the value of played games sharply declines after release, the gamer is incentivized to sell the game as soon as he/she finishes it to recoup maximum value.  Other gamers, you and me again, are content to eat the scraps off their table and, sometimes indirectly, buy these games from them, empowering them to pay full price for their next game and starting the cycle anew.

Which is the factor that the decriers of used game sales seldom acknowledge.  The purchase of used games puts money in the pockets of the people buying the new games.  Without which, they would buy fewer new games.  It's the same as automobiles- if a one couldn't sell or trade-in their old vehicle, how many would be able to buy a new vehicle?  Generally speaking, the money that trades hands with the buying and selling of used games (or cars) stays in the game (or car) market.  Sure Gamestop is often making a percentage as the middle man, but how different are they than other middlemen?  Without them, how well would games sell at all?

All of that being said, I think the publishers have a right to try to monetize used game sales.  I think I have an equal right to refuse to do business with them.

I think if Sony or MS actually tried to implement such a feature it would be halted by the supreme court.

I can't see the Supreme Court getting involved.  It's effectively the same thing that's been going on with PC games (nay PC Software) for the past decade or more.  Every disc comes with a 'license key' without which the disc is more or less useless.  The license is nontransferable, and used software sales are all but a thing of the past.  Of course, so much software is sold directly online anyways, it's kind of a moot point by now.

Video game companies are rolling in money--

Except for all of the ones that recently closed.  :(

[the cost of Xbox Live is] the sole reason I never once recommended people to buy an Xbox 360 when you could be playing the same--and more often than not better--games online with the PS3 for free.

C3PX already made this comment, but I agree with his assessment.  As an owner of both systems, I gladly pay $3 a month for the service of Xbox live compared to what I get for free on PSN.

Personally, I don't have any problem with not buying their stuff, ... and the games I enjoy the most aren't even being made any more anyway.

There's something kind of ironic about the proximity of these statements. 

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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In my quest to gather as many Star Wars games to my chest at as low a cost as possible I couldn't help but notice that Star Wars Demolition and Star Wars Super Bombad Racing have suddenly shot up in price.

I blame Frink.

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xhonzi said:

zombie84 said:

There is nothing wrong about not paying companies when you buy used shit. That's like giving Ikea a dollar everytime you turn on the lamp you bought at Fred's garage sale 6 years ago. Or giving Honda a dollar every time you bought that used Civic off your friend in 2004. Does any of that make sense? Of course not. If I go to Goodwill and get a Hungry Hungry Hippos board game I don't owe Parker Brothers anything.

It's an odd obsession that VG publishers have developed.  I mostly agree with you.  But there are a few major differences:

A well kept game disc is sold as 'used' but is virtually indistinguishable from a new product, unlike cars, homes, or food.  A closer comparison would be to books, movies, music, and other media, etc...  Which, of course, have endured the 2nd hand market for decades.  

Yes, but that applies to anything. A lamp that just sits on a table in the basement and has only been used a few times would be indistinguishable from a new one. Anything well maintained will perform close to new. Game discs have a finite lifespan because of disc rot as well, something that more or less doesn't apply to many items. A couch that is well kept should look like new, and the used price ($0-200) is only a fraction of the original price ($200-800). This isn't an argument in favour of charging for old games. That principle could apply to anything and everything. Some things wear out by nature of using them--including the old systems with moving parts that you will be playing the games on. The game itself is just one component, it would be like Honda allowing you to have a used car but then charging you for the engine. But again, if you have something like a ceramic figure, unless you drop it or scratch it, it should look like new even if it's 40 years old, but you shouldn't have to give Sears a dollar when you bought that cheesy frog figurine from old lady Doris' yard sale ten years ago.

But still there are two major differences... cost for games is signficantly higher than those other ones, and the rate at which the medium develops. 

Not any more than something like a couch. If I go to Ikea and get a cheap couch, it's still about four hundred dollars. A new game can sell for about $40. A used movie costs less to buy and more to make. So do a lot of music albums. Heck, the actual cost of manufacturing something like Hungry Hungry Hippos is probably the same as some video games. Every product also has R&D, just like games as well, someone had to design that couch, some copywriter had to come up with the text on the tag, etc. Again: a non-argument. There's nothing really special about video games or the video game industry compared to many other products.

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Bingowings said:

In my quest to gather as many Star Wars games to my chest at as low a cost as possible I couldn't help but notice that Star Wars Demolition and Star Wars Super Bombad Racing have suddenly shot up in price.

I blame Frink.

So do I.

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zombie84 said:

xhonzi said:

zombie84 said:

There is nothing wrong about not paying companies when you buy used shit. That's like giving Ikea a dollar everytime you turn on the lamp you bought at Fred's garage sale 6 years ago. Or giving Honda a dollar every time you bought that used Civic off your friend in 2004. Does any of that make sense? Of course not. If I go to Goodwill and get a Hungry Hungry Hippos board game I don't owe Parker Brothers anything.

It's an odd obsession that VG publishers have developed.  I mostly agree with you.  But there are a few major differences:

A well kept game disc is sold as 'used' but is virtually indistinguishable from a new product, unlike cars, homes, or food.  A closer comparison would be to books, movies, music, and other media, etc...  Which, of course, have endured the 2nd hand market for decades.  

Yes, but that applies to anything.

I would agree that it applies to lots of things, had hardly anything and everything.

But still there are two major differences... cost for games is signficantly higher than those other ones, and the rate at which the medium develops. 

Not any more than something like a couch.

My comment reflected the difference in sales price betwixt other media (specifically music CDs, video discs, and books) and games.  I said that was what they were most similar to, but yet there were these differences.

At any rate- I agree with you.  It is in no way dishonest to buy used games.  However, it is not dishonest for a company to incentivize new game purchases/disincentivize used game purchases through one time use codes.  However, there may be some (myself included) who find that practice distasteful and won't participate.

AS C3PX said, gaming is a great hobby, but it's one I can find myself living without if the market place changes significantly.

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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I guess. PC games did things like user keys because of piracy, NOT because they wanted to extract additional money from the people keeping them in business--anything on your computer can be cracked and ripped, so PC files in particular are vulnerable to counterfit WAY more than any other medium. You can pirate old lady Doris' frog figure from Sears using molds, but it's more effort than it is worth, whereas PC files (via CDROM, etc.) can easily be transferred and distributed via the internet even if the user is an idiot like me (PC keys didn't really exist before the internet). Game companies locking out used games are just artificially manipulating the free market in order to hold their monopoly on the most lucrative entertainment medium to ever exist. But I will say this: even if they were to try to implement such a feature, it would fail. They can have the possibility of such "lock out" features because of the technology inherantly tied to games, but that same inherant technology is what allows people to hack the code and de-activate it. PC software has security keys, but how many people have paid for, oh I don't know, Photoshop? Unless you run a business, I am guessing you have probbaly just stolen the software. I certainly have never known anyone who paid for an Adobe product that wasn't either using it in a professional context or using it in a business context. All that will happen if Sony or MS implement such a feature is people hacking the code, just like when they pathetically tried to implement a security feature for BD only to find people cracking it almost overnight.

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Did anyone buy Colonial Marines? I've been looking at youtube clips and reviews and it looks to be an absolute trainwreck. Interestingly, some of the stuff they showed while the game was in development looks far superior to the final product. I'm pretty curious about what went on behind the scenes...

Bioshock is out in 3 and a bit weeks. wooo! Might have to revisit the others beforehand.

 

 

 

 

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I was really looking forward to it, then I saw some gameplay and was unimpressed, but I wanted to see what reviewers had to say. Every review I've seen has said that it is sub-par at best and awful at worst. Some people are even saying that it seems incomplete, like they rushed it out. Maybe, but even the graphics and engine don't look all that great to me. Too bad. I hope they make a follow up that gets everything right.

I'm in the middle of downloading Age of Conan Unchained (for like three days now, damn thing is 20 GB), has anyone played this? I'm a huge Conan fan and the reviews are decent and it's free to play on Steam right now.

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zombie84 said:

All that will happen if Sony or MS implement such a feature is people hacking the code, just like when they pathetically tried to implement a security feature for BD only to find people cracking it almost overnight.

Just like how modchips are so easy to get for the current gen and work so well? Unlike previous gens, they aren't easy to install and none of them really worked so well last time I read into it. I feel like modchips are a thing of the past. Also, attempting to do so gets your console permabanned from Xbox Live, don't know about PSN, rendering it useless for anything online related. 

I just don't see it happening. Especially when the thing is hooked up to the internet. Right now pirating current gen consoles games is more trouble than anyone finds it worth. Nobody has come up with a way around EA's online passes yet, and pirated Xbox arcade games (which is the same sort of DLC system as the online passes), gets your console permanently banned.

Nobody is going to hack these things. It is very different than a BD player, as a BD player isn't part of an online network that loses the vast majority of its features when it's manufacturers decides to cut that unit off for sketchy activity. It is much more involved than just updating your BD player with some hacked firmware.

Pirates stick to PC gaming these days.

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Oh, of course, today mod chips aren't much of a factor, because as you said they are more trouble than it is worth. However, you don't think that if a console company designed a lock-out chip to keep used games from playing that it wouldn't re-mobilize the entire pirate industry? If such an extreme action were taken you would see a proportionally extreme reaction. In this day and age it might not even be a mod chip, it could be a firmware hack or something similar. There are only a few hundred (dozen?) engineers working at Microsoft and Sony, but there are thousands of equally qualified programers who would be willing to best them. Much the same as you don't have to pay for any PC software if you don't want to, hackers will find a way if the insentive is high enough, especially since the architecture of the next gen systems is more like PCs than ever.

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Johnny Ringo said:

Did anyone buy Colonial Marines? I've been looking at youtube clips and reviews and it looks to be an absolute trainwreck. Interestingly, some of the stuff they showed while the game was in development looks far superior to the final product.

I did. It's....playable. The worst thing about it is the lost potential. Which was intensified by the marketing which was pretty much false advertisement. I've seen a stack of official screenshots that show stuff that is nowhere in the game. Well the lost potential and the terrible story. =P The writing in the game is just terrible. There are plot holes out the the wazoo and the dialog is just awful.

The level designers and audio engineers certainly did their jobs though. The locations feel authentic and the sounds and soundtrack are great. The graphics in general are pretty subpar though.

Six years in development and this is what we end up with. It's a real shame. Ultimately, I'd say the blame would definitely have to fall on Gearbox shoulders. Sega paid them to develop the game and instead they outsourced it to another studio while they focused on their own games. Which sounds like pretty dishonest business practice to me. There are something like five studios credited with developing the game.

Here's a report that constructs the story of what happened with the game based on the accounts of several anonymous A:CM devs.

Sadly the next Aliens game to be released will be an RTS. Not counting the new AVP game that was just released today for mobile devices.

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Really looking forward to Bioshock: Infinite (and I'm so glad they decided to include reversible box art) and The Last of Us. I think those are going to be my two launch day purchases for the year.

And I'd still really like to play Borderlands 2 and Far Cry 3 eventually.

I'm thinking about catching up on the God of War series while I wait for Bioshock. I have still never beaten God of War 2, and have yet to play 3, but I have them all, including the origins collection.

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Bioshock: Infinite is such a terrible name.  What will they name the sequel?

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CP3S said:

And I'd still really like to play Borderlands 2 and Far Cry 3 eventually.

 

I was underwhelmed by both of those. There's just something off [to me] about BL2 - it's kinda just 'the same / again' but without the charm of BL1. and the missions in FC3 feel like a boring distraction from the free roaming...

Finishing up on TWD season 1 before Bioshock comes out. Anyone else played it? I'm tempted to run through it again and make different choices..

Been looking at a bunch of stuff on Bungie's upcoming game - 'Destiny'. Still not quite sure what to make of it, looks like it will be interesting but I'm really not sure about the whole 'persistent gameworld/pseudo MMO style of it all..


 


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Borderlands has good art design, but the gameplay is above average at most. It's a good game, but I think it's more a case of it's competition making it look good.

Far Cry 3 on the other hand I have been consistently impressed with, and it's a lot of fun. If you play the whole way through you might find some of the missions get repetetive by the end, but for me it's one of the best FPS I have played in a couple years. Good presentation, good graphics, good gameplay, good co-op, it's just an all-around solid game.

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TV's Frink said:

Bioshock: Infinite is such a terrible name.  What will they name the sequel?

Bioshock : More Infinite.

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And the next one could be called Bioshock: More Infinite Plus One

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zombie84 said:

Borderlands has good art design, but the gameplay is above average at most. It's a good game, but I think it's more a case of it's competition making it look good.

I've yet to play BL2, but the greatness of the first BL was entirely in the co-op, which was fantastic. Too many co-op games are short and you run out of stuff to do, Borderlands was great because it gave you hours and hours of running around with a friend online, doing missions and shooting the breeze. And it felt like every time you ran out of missions and took a reasonable break from it, there was a new DLC pack out on its way out to look forward to.

Alone, it was just a waste of time IMHO. Main reason I haven't played BL2 yet is because I haven't had any good friends to play it with online. One of my old BL buddies switch exclusively to PC gaming (and now says he can't take consoles seriously anymore because they feel like a watered down experience. PC gaming elitist, pah...), and my other BL buddy was the girl I was dating at the time.

It is actually a really great couples game, it was nice snuggling up on a Saturday morning or late at night and splitscreening with each other.

 

Far Cry 3 on the other hand I have been consistently impressed with, and it's a lot of fun. If you play the whole way through you might find some of the missions get repetetive by the end, but for me it's one of the best FPS I have played in a couple years. Good presentation, good graphics, good gameplay, good co-op, it's just an all-around solid game.

Good to hear. I've heard great things, and I've heard really negative things. I still have a feeling I'll really like it.

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TV's Frink said:

And the next one could be called Bioshock: More Infinite Plus One

Maybe Bioshock : To Infinity And Beyond

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CP3S said:

Really looking forward to Bioshock: Infinite (and I'm so glad they decided to include reversible box art) and The Last of Us. I think those are going to be my two launch day purchases for the year.

I have no business buying new games with all of these old games piling up.  But I have been tempted to pre-order Infinite.  I don't think it's going to happen, though. 

I'm relatively confident I'm in for a new console one way or another this fall.  I probably have enough current gen stuff to last for 2 years, so every title I buy now probably just means 1 more on the shelf that I never actually play.  :(

And I'd still really like to play Borderlands 2 and Far Cry 3 eventually.

I'm thinking about catching up on the God of War series while I wait for Bioshock. I have still never beaten God of War 2, and have yet to play 3, but I have them all, including the origins collection.

I've been waiting for them to announce BL2:GOTY, but so far no dice.  They just announced a disc of DLC, but not all of it which means there's probably another disc of DLC coming before the GOTY edition.

I picked up the 5 game God of War series on Black Friday and have played through 1 and 2.  Pretty decent games except for the endings... The difficulty really ramps up at the end, which overall I'd say is more frustrating than anything else.  I had to go straight into 3 once I finished 2, but it's a little bit of a generational shock.  I was so used to the PS2 stylings of 1 & 2, that 3 was a little off-putting.  COO and GOS will probably feel more like the PS2 games, and I think that's a good thing.

Dead Island seems to have worn on too long in its tooth.  My co-op friend and I have both expressed interest in just putting it down unfinished.  We got out to the Jungle, which seemed to breath a little more life into it, but I'm not sure it will last.  It says we're about 80% done, so I think we'll slog through to the end from this point.  Hopefully we're glad we did by the end.

I'm a little more than half-through Red Dead... and I think I'm going to shelve it for a little bit.  I just finished Mexico, and am a little tired of riding shotgun every mission.  I think if I take a small break, it'll be more enjoyable to come back to.

Next... probably AC: Revelations.  They're about to announce AC4, so I guess I better start catching up.  :)

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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xhonzi said:

every title I buy now probably just means 1 more on the shelf that I never actually play.  :(

Even Bioshock??? WHAt???

IGNORED!!!

And I'd still really like to play Borderlands 2 and Far Cry 3 eventually.

I'm thinking about catching up on the God of War series while I wait for Bioshock. I have still never beaten God of War 2, and have yet to play 3, but I have them all, including the origins collection.

I've been waiting for them to announce BL2:GOTY, but so far no dice.  They just announced a disc of DLC, but not all of it which means there's probably another disc of DLC coming before the GOTY edition.

The first one kept DLC coming out for a good long while, which I appreciated. I imagine two still has more to come before it is time for a rerelease with all the DLC.

 

 COO and GOS will probably feel more like the PS2 games, and I think that's a good thing.

I played them a little, they felt a lot like the PS2 games, only with really awful graphics in comparison and with a bit more of a claustrophobic feel to them.

 

Dead Island seems to have worn on too long in its tooth.  My co-op friend and I have both expressed interest in just putting it down unfinished.  We got out to the Jungle, which seemed to breath a little more life into it, but I'm not sure it will last.  It says we're about 80% done, so I think we'll slog through to the end from this point.  Hopefully we're glad we did by the end.

Dead Island was a game I loved all the way to the end, and was disappointed when it was over. I remember thinking it was fantastic, but a little too short. My c-op partner and I played the campaign through 2 and a half times to get to get our levels up.

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CP3S said:

xhonzi said:

every title I buy now probably just means 1 more on the shelf that I never actually play.  :(

Even Bioshock??? WHAt???

IGNORED!!!

I'm not sure if you can read this, what with the IGNORing and all...  But I will definitely pick up Infinite, maybe in about 6 months or so, and it will mean that I will never actually play Splinter Cell 5, Shadow of the Colossus, or, heaven forbid, Fallout Vegas.  Every title I buy now means one on the shelf won't get played... but it probably won't be that title, if you follow.

I'll probably wait to see what the next Xbox looks like, but I may just divert my funds into a triumphant return/embarassed retreat to PC gaming.  I'm sure Infinite will look x2 as good on a $1000 PC as my 8.5 year old 360.  If I decide to go PC again, I'll pick up Infinite for that.

I played [CoO and GoS] a little, they felt a lot like the PS2 games, only with really awful graphics in comparison and with a bit more of a claustrophobic feel to them.

Really awful in comparison to the PS2 games?  I had heard that they were at least on par, but I haven't booted them up, so I don't know.

Dead Island was a game I loved all the way to the end, and was disappointed when it was over. I remember thinking it was fantastic, but a little too short. My c-op partner and I played the campaign through 2 and a half times to get to get our levels up.

That's encouraging!  I tend to trust your taste in games, so hopefully we will at least feel gratified that we played through to the end once!

I'm playing the Asian girl who seems to have developed a real glass jaw of late.  I recently started using a long handled axe which has helped keep the undead at bay, but I have resigned myself to constant deaths just being part of the game.

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!