The Unofficial Complete REVISITED SAGA Ideas and Random Discussion Thread — Page 16

That's what I was trying to convey in my ROTS breakdown.

If the Separatist general had a full human head

and Vader wore a more primitive mask you could imagine a first time viewer being led to believe he is the same person.

One of my wishes for ROTJ:R

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/47284_572695346079385_1938277010_n.jpg

Give the original Anakin Skywalker the clothes of the PT Anakin.... :)

Surprisingly I've only just discovered this thread.

My wishlist for the prequels is as follows. Obviously some may be impossible or involve too much refilming/composting to be realistic:

1. Never have Yoda SEEN in the prequels. He can be mentioned as having been consulted as if he's some great unseen monk living in self imposed isolation (like some Tibetan monk seeking enlightenment) or even seen via hologram, but the hologram would be just a regular hooded obscured figure that looks nothing like him. So then Yoda would be concealing his true appearance to everyone and becomes a Wizard of Oz type character. I think that would work perfectly and uses a very well known character archetype that suits Yoda down to a tee. 

2. Have another apprentice for Obi Wan. Perhaps we meet him in ROTS when Anakin is a fully fledged Jedi. It just needs to be hinted at that he's somehow gunning for Anakin. We can even use Hayden Christensen as the "bad" apprentice and......

3. Recast Anakin with someone who:
a. Looks more like Sebastian Shaw
b. Can act 

4. Never SEE Anakin becoming evil, even though he is. We can still see Vader's misdeeds, but only in costume. It may seem very 'Fight Club' esque having it be like he's got Sith Schizophrenia, but it's a very good way of doing it to have a Darth Vader in the prequels whilst preserving the revelation of ESB as well as keeping Anakin as a person we at least think is good.

5. Have the Fight occur between Anakin and ObiWan's apprentice instead. So between 'New Anakin' and 'Hayden Anakin'. Now this is a big one and probably wouldn't even be possible and I'm not even that sure I want this as a change, but it would fix everything. Ben would still be technically lying by saying "Darth Vader Killed your father", but we wouldn't know that until ESB and then Ben's Ghost explains he was telling the truth "from a certain point of view" in ROTJ. In ANH, we'd be none-the-wiser and believe that this apprentice of Obi Wan became Darth Vader having "betrayed and murdered" Luke's father. 

7. Have the Republic army (the precursors to Stormtroopers in white armour) not be clones. Instead replace the Droid armies with pale eyed, pallid skinned men in armour and call them "Clones" 

I'm having trouble posting pictures for some reason so here's a crude mockup as a URL:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y161/welsh_anarchy/603206_581635721852014_1667331729_n.jpg

Also I'm catching up with this topic bit by bit and just don't understand some people saying "it's fine not having an alternative apprentice as long as you don't explicitly state Anakin's surname is Skywalker". Now whilst I understand where you're coming from and that you believe a first time viewer would think that Anakin (Hayden) in the PT was Vader due to the fact he was: 

Obi Wan's old apprentice
Seduced by the dark side of the force
That he hunted down and destroyed the jedi knights
Betrayed and murdered Luke's Father

And from that alone we might assume that Luke's father is someone we've never met who Anakin/Vader murdered.

However in the very same conversation, Obi Wan says Luke's father is 

A Jedi Knight
A cunning warrior
In the clone wars with him dragged on an idealistic crusade
the best starfighter in the galaxy
And a good friend 

.....and yet we've never met him. Why wouldn't we have met him? In fact the only person we've met that matches that description will have been Anakin, who Obi Wan more or less explicitly states became Darth Vader.

It makes it all fall apart because there's no alternative person you can connect either character to. Both descriptions point to Hayden in the PT. There should be some kind of ambiguity but there isn't any because there's no other prominent friend of Obi Wan that matches these descriptions for us to think might be Luke's Father - just the same guy again that fell to the Dark Side. 

And if Ady was to go the other direction and we never SEE Anakin fall to the dark side in the edit and he just mysteriously dies off screen, we're left with the opposite problem then - why did we never meet this Darth Vader if he was a pupil of Obi Wan's? Why wasn't he ever mentioned? 

This is why I think that, at the very least, we need the Jedi Killings by Darth Vader to be attributed to Obi Wan's old apprentice. Even if Obi Wan HAVING a previous apprentice that he suspects in the killings is only alluded to in redubbed conversations. I have no idea how this could be accomplished though. There's much more scope in getting some meaningful visual indicators of a seemingly "bad" apprentice by relegating Hayden Christensen to the role as he gives filthy looks throughout most of the saga anyway :p The ridiculous direction George gave his acting (act evil because you're going to become Darth Vader) would actually have a payoff then in a very effective The Usual Suspects, kind of way. The actual Darth Vader is the one we least suspected - Anakin. The kindhearted great Jedi IS Kaizer Soze.

I appreciate that this may be beyond the scope of the edit, but I've been thinking about this for so many years and it's the only way I can see of fixing everything. Unless you can find convincing ways of alluding to an old apprentice of Obi Wan's (whom we never meet) having turned to the dark side, I don't see how else the lines from ANH can be made to work with the Prequels. 

There's also the superficial continuity-loving side of me that wants an Anakin that looks like Sebastian Shaw :)

brash_stryker said:

 

Now whilst I understand where you're coming from and that a first time viewer would think that Anakin (Hayden) in the PT was Vader due to the fact he was: 

Seduced by the dark side of the force

The problem with this idea is that Vader was SUPPOSED to have been seduced by the dark side of the force......but they depict no such thing in ROTS. As it stands now, he was tricked into turning by Palpatine who is hinted at having had his fingers in the pie since, and including, Anakin's birth.

So not only does the PT not work the way it stands now, but nor would the idea of having Anakin as the perceived "good guy" who we later learn was actually the one who turned. "Seduced by the dark side" should mean that the character of Anakin lusts for power, and enjoys using it for evil/his own gain/less than benevolent purposes. Additionally, giving the viewer reason to perceive him as the good guy (even if it IS a trick) takes away from his eventual turn back to good. The whole point of Darth Vader (or more accurately, the person who wanted power so much that he eventually became Vader) is that he was a very bad dude, who became the baddest dude in the galaxy.....making it all the more surprising when it turns out that he actually gives a shit about his son and turns (giving his life in the process) to save him.

For the PT to respect the material that came before it and to also retain the surprise of Anakin being Vader you need to find a way of making him seem to desire power of his own accord (not being tricked into wanting it to save someone...therefore still allowing him to be a good guy, who sacrifices himself to save someone else...long before he does exactly that same thing for Luke), and also leave his death/survival and the fact that he is the one who becomes Vader rather ambiguous. Quite a challenge to accomplish these 2 things in the same plot.....but if you figure out how to do that you save a big part of the saga that GL ruined.

muddyknees2000 said:

brash_stryker said:

 

Now whilst I understand where you're coming from and that a first time viewer would think that Anakin (Hayden) in the PT was Vader due to the fact he was: 

Seduced by the dark side of the force

The problem with this idea is that Vader was SUPPOSED to have been seduced by the dark side of the force......but they depict no such thing in ROTS. As it stands now, he was tricked into turning by Palpatine who is hinted at having had his fingers in the pie since, and including, Anakin's birth.

So not only does the PT not work the way it stands now, but nor would the idea of having Anakin as the perceived "good guy" who we later learn was actually the one who turned. "Seduced by the dark side" should mean that the character of Anakin lusts for power, and enjoys using it for evil/his own gain/less than benevolent purposes. Additionally, giving the viewer reason to perceive him as the good guy (even if it IS a trick) takes away from his eventual turn back to good. The whole point of Darth Vader (or more accurately, the person who wanted power so much that he eventually became Vader) is that he was a very bad dude, who became the baddest dude in the galaxy.....making it all the more surprising when it turns out that he actually gives a shit about his son and turns (giving his life in the process) to save him.

For the PT to respect the material that came before it and to also retain the surprise of Anakin being Vader you need to find a way of making him seem to desire power of his own accord (not being tricked into wanting it to save someone...therefore still allowing him to be a good guy, who sacrifices himself to save someone else...long before he does exactly that same thing for Luke), and also leave his death/survival and the fact that he is the one who becomes Vader rather ambiguous. Quite a challenge to accomplish these 2 things in the same plot.....but if you figure out how to do that you save a big part of the saga that GL ruined.

But how do you feel about that fact that even if you managed to get our current Anakin's fall to the dark side to be a convincing seduction rather than a calculated decision, it still seems like there has to be 2 apprentices? Because in ANH Obi Wan refers directly to both Darth Vader as a previous apprentice and Luke's father as his fellow knight and good friend. Unless we can insert some perceived duality of meaning, it's only ever going to mean the same person as there is no other person of prominence alongside ObiWan in the prequels. 

brash_stryker said:

But how do you feel about that fact that even if you managed to get our current Anakin's fall to the dark side to be a convincing seduction rather than a calculated decision, it still seems like there has to be 2 apprentices? Because in ANH Obi Wan refers directly to both Darth Vader as a previous apprentice and Luke's father as his fellow knight and good friend. Unless we can insert some perceived duality of meaning, it's only ever going to mean the same person as there is no other person of prominence alongside ObiWan in the prequels. 

If it were up to me I would make Anakin a background character in the PT...much the way Vader is a background character in the OT.....making him the protagonist of the PT makes it nigh on impossible to keep the reveal in Ep 5.

That's how I've always felt too. It became Anakin's story when really he should have been a smaller part of a larger story, with Obi Wan as the protagonist. In any case, because of what we already know from ANH, Anakin needs to be/have been Obi Wan's apprentice, and if preserving the ESB reveal has any importance, there's absolutely got to be a (at least implied) 2nd apprentice who could conceivably be capable of turning evil.

Ady's certainly got his work cut out for him, that's for sure. 

there ARE other ways...

I wish I knew what you did, because I've thought about it pretty much since ROTS came out and inserting a new Anakin with Hayden as the other apprentice is the only way I can think of. Unless Ady's utilising Jake Lloyd somehow, which whilst I'm not completely averse to, I'm not sure how it would work.

I think all of Brash's points are valid.  I will be amazed if you manage to nail this, Ady.  I can hardly wait.  While I respect others' views that there is no point to trying to rearrange the films and that they should be watched 4-6, 1-3 (or 4-5, 1-3, 6), George's own statement that the films should be watched 1-6 makes me truly wish for a version that can achieve that while preserving what is sacred about the OT.

I know that some of this would be facilitated by slightly altering Obi-Wan's lines in the OT, but I also understand the desire to build the PT completely around the OT and not the other way around.

I'm curious, Ady, if you also have a plan for Yoda, which I thought was another surprise ruined, and which Brash mentioned earlier.  He's an important character as well with numerous lines critical to the plot.  Perhaps putting him in encompassing robes may be the only way to do it.

I understand using creative editing and reshot footage of the Vader costume to imply that Anakin and Vader are different characters. The only thing I'm clueless about is how it will address Ben's later comment of "Was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil". I mean come ANH, the audience will know something's up because this phantom figure was never said to be Obi's apprentice previously...and the only one that was his apprentice was the one that he supposedly murdered.

Maybe you have this covered, I don't know. I hope so :)

Ok here's my next idea, part of which I'd forgotten about.

Obviously you already know my feelings about Hayden Christensen and that I think he should be recast with another Anakin but there's another reason for this as I believe it's prudent to completely get rid of Jake Lloyd and that we meet Anakin as a teenager of Luke's age. 

He won't be a slave either and will be either living with his mother and brother or just his mother (if Owen is Obi Wan's brother instead). I'm struggling with the details of what point in the film Obi Wan will meet him, or whether they're actually stranded on the planet or not But there will be a race, and Anakin wins - whether there's anything at stake for our characters though, I don't know. I haven't thought about it enough.

One thing that will change though is it won't be podracers anymore. Driving a mechanical 'chariot' does not say 'pilot' to me, and Obi Wan says Anakin was already a great pilot when they met.

Instead, he's in some kind of (possibly illegal) race involving airborne ships, winding through beggar's canyon and his own particular ship is one of these:

Look familiar?

This way, Luke playing with the model of his T-16 becomes a nice little nod to the prequels without being too blatant. It's the kind of subtle touch I just love seeing in a film. Perhaps the one he has is still the same one left over from when his father left.

Anyway, whatever the circumstances of the race, it will occur when the sith have already returned and Obi Wan knows it and they need all the Jedi/pilots they can get. That way he can tell Anakin he has the force and ask him to come with him on his 'idealistic crusade'

Again, all this is probably impossible, but it's how I think it should have been.

timdiggerm said:

Frankly, I don't think there's any problem with having Luke & his dad pilot different things

There isn't a problem at all. It's simply the fact I don't see a Podracer as something you pilot' so it doesn't fit. Also I've always absolutely hated them anyway. They just look stupid IMO.

When it comes to the fact that what he's flying might be the same as what Luke mentions owning, I think that's a really good non-hamfisted way of unifying the two trilogies - exactly because of what you said - we never actually see Luke flying it, just see him playing with the model, almost like he could be reenacting a race we've seen before. I think it could be a nice moment and a nice nod.

Forget about it being a T-16, as we on this forum are the minority in knowing what a T-16 looks like. A T-16 is never explicitly stated as being the Toy in Luke's hand, so the average audience member not reading Wookiepedia would just see he's got a model of a ship that looks like the one his father Piloted. Perhaps he realises it was his father's and he treasures it, perhaps he's oblivious. Who knows. 

My point is, we know Luke Piloted a T-16 but we don't know, based solely on the information the movies themselves give, that they look like that, therefore it does not create a problem of them both piloting the same ship as we never SEE Luke's ship.

timdiggerm said:

Then what do you call it? Driving? One of Ani's big moves is utilizing the 3rd dimension (you know, the thing w/ the ramp, dropping from above), which is surely more piloting than driving.

Yeah that's exactly what I'd call it. And I'm not counting that move because it looked completely retarded - and if you want to argue about it, a car can go over a ramp and be airborne given enough speed. It doesn't mean it's flying :-p

These are clearly ground level craft, like Swoops or speeders. If they weren't, then why are they all remaining at ground level (aside from that one move you mention which required a ramp).

All I care about is that it's never matched up to what I imagined when I was a kid. A "great pilot" does not say "in some chariot race at ground level" to me.

timdiggerm said:

Well that's not true... http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080122204332/starwars/images/0/09/LarsGarage.jpg

EDIT: In case it's not clear, I'm not talking about the model Luke's holding.

Yeah I know the full scale ship was partially built, but we can't really SEE it can we? It's just a part of the nose we see, and it doesn't really look like the nose of the thing he's holding. Not really relevant IMO as a viewer without some sort of Visual Dictionary or book wouldn't know what that thing in the background was meant to be :)

timdiggerm said:

brash_stryker said:

a car can go over a ramp and be airborne given enough speed. Doesn't make it flying

What, falling with style?

Haha. I thought exactly that as I wrote it.

Going back to my radical, probably impossible, idea though, I've been thinking about an introduction to Anakin. Obi and crew are stranded on Tatooine. Perhaps their pilot is injured/dead. In any case, they need a pilot rather than a ship part. They ask in a cantina/shop if there are any pilots they can hire. Someone (perhaps Watto redubbled or with new subtitles) pipes up that they know of one - the best in the sector. "Where can I find him" Obi Wan asks.

Cut to the T-16 and another ship racing eachother through Beggar's Canyon. It weaves in and out between spires and there's a little bit of banter between the two over radio chatter. They are either brothers (in which case this other guy will be Owen) or friends. The other guy taunts him and Anakin pulls off some tremendous maneuver through a narrow gap, only just avoiding being crushed.

"Woooooooooo" he shouts in triumph and exhilaration - except this won't be from an annoying little kid, but a young adult whom we've already warmed to as a bit of a rogue. Anakin should always have filled the Han Solo type role in these movies. What a missed opportunity.

I appreciate that my ideas seem more like remakes than reedits, but Ady has stated he will be doing some refilming and suggested there will be new actors involved, so considering the talent on board when it comes to VFX artists, 3D Modellers and his 2 filming units, I don't think it's as far-fetched as some of you might think. Though it all depends on money, how much more support there'll be by then, and how much Ady himself wants to accomplish.

Addition:

Also when Anakin leaves the planet with Obi Wan on this idealistic crusade, his brother Owen won't be happy about it and a bit jealous that Anakin has the Force and he doesn't. This would explain his apparent dislike of Obi Wan in ANH as "just a crazy old man".

The most similar example of this type of thing being done elsewhere is in Harry Potter where Harry's Mother, Lily is accepted to go to Hogwarts and Petunia, her sister who is not blessed with magic, is secretly jealous but reacts with anger, calling her a freak.