The 1997 OT Special Edition Trilogy Preservation Standards Thread (* unfinished *) — Page 9

Don't know if anyone has seen this page but it has quite amount of information on surround sound.....

http://www.wendycarlos.com/gosurround.html

Enjoy the read.

_,,,^..^,,,_

CapableMetal may well be the person you want to chat with about such things.  He's been just as instrumental as all the others involved in the "Cinema DTS" experience here that may well have ideas and working objectives that could help this project become more defined.

He has been a teacher and a comrade in arms to me ...... I'm sure he'd offer up some relevant thought process for this endeavor.

:)

_,,,^..^,,,_ said:

After discovering the fantastic world of myspleen, my creativity awakes suddenly and said "I want to do more..." (regarding my next project, "SET ruLes")... so, I downloaded the 1997 SE DTS audio tracks, and began to experiment with them...

The first, simple thing I've done, is this: I took the first ANH reel WAV PCM 44.1khz 16bit files - six discrete channels - then merged them into a single WAV PCM converted to 48khz 16bit, and finally reconverted them to DTS 5.1 48khz 16bit 1536kbps.

The result track seems almost the same of the original PCM WAVs (say, 99%?) accordit to the Audacity comparison "by eye" I made, apart a little volume reduction of the LFE (I think less than 2dB) due to the audio converter.

So, here you are the file -  sendspace (warning: 218MB); is there someone who'd like to test it on his DTS audio system, and tell me what does he think (especially if the channel positions are right - this is my main concern)?

The original file must be at 24fps, where the NTSC 1997 version should be at 23.976fps, so take it in account if you mux the track with your video... at the end of the reel, the audio would be desynchronized for 28 frames, a little bit than a second.

A lot of this has been covered in some detail both earlier in this thread and also in this thread. We have confirmed that the files are 24fps, and I have already syncronised the whole SE trilogy to a 24fps source and converted them to 23.976 with as little processing as possible (by manipulating playback sample rates to match the frame rates before resampling the audio to 48KHz). The audio as is presented in the torrent on MySpleen is a bit rough around the edges as it is, and the LFE is far from perfect as there is no discreet LFE channel on the DTS discs, I produced it very quickly from a low-pass filter by following the DTS theater spec to know how to reproduce it, but I'm convinced those results are inferior for home systems; I've developed my own preset for a more suitable LFE for my own syncs that sounds great on my THX system.

My syncronised files will be made available to you should you wish to use them, they have all be adjusted manually, using no time stretching tools or programs other than Sound Forge and Adobe Audition so each step of the process has been accounted for. Call me a purist and a control freak, but I've grown to dislike automated conversion software! The methods that I have used are the result of discussion with other forum members in the audio thread I've linked to above, check it out for an interesting read!

If this resulting file is right, I could use the DTS soundtrack for my next project... yes, I know that one of the [OUT ruLes] project statement said no digital source could be used, but, hey, rules are made to be broken! (^_^) and, by the way, those DTS tracks were meant to be used only in theaters, and not released for home use, so the rule is only half broken... well, the solution is ready: as this will be the [SET ruLes] project, the only thing I have to do is change that rule, is that simple... (!**3)

I have been trying to capture some laserdiscs for this very purpose although I'm hold because I'm having to shop around for a new IPS monitor for colour-correction as my old one was too small and so ended up on my old retro-gaming system! I've no doubt you could achieve captures that are superior to anything I can produce due to your range of players.

There is great discussion about frame accuracy earlier in this thread and if you could capture and produce video tracks that conform to these numbers (reel change points, etc) I will gladly provide my synchronised theatrical DTS, Laserdisc 5.1 and 2.0 files to you for a release (yes, I've been very busy and done all of them to conform to the 'standards' set in this thread). PM me again if you're interested and we can work something out.

_,,,^..^,,,_ said:

@CapableMetal:

You are right; after the post #210 I realized that the DTS files were @24fps, so I converted it in post #212.

It will be great to have 6 separate WAV files, one for each channel, all of them for each movie, that start at frame 0 and continue for all the movie lenght, converted from 44100hz to 48048hz with the best frequency converter you have and THEN modified in the header to be 48000hz... in that case, I don't need the video sync!

I'll convert them from my master files for you to whatever format you want, including any DTS format. All the resampling stages have already been done, they are 48KHz @ 23.976fps.

If you're going to make your video into AVCHD format, can you can use the DTS audio format or are you thinking of encoding them to AC3?

For the audio to synchronise, you need to make your video conform to the numbers in this post.

_,,,^..^,,,_ said:

Could you confirm that your 1997 SE PAL capture is in sync from the first frame to the last with the DTS track? Or I must insert some missing frame somewhere?

I have captured the PAL laserdiscs for ANH and they have 1 frame missing from the 'standardised' figures on here, at the end in the victory celebration, I think. Inserting a null frame would solve it, although its so near the end of the film a 1 frame discrepancy should be unnoticeable.

But, at the end, the question is: should I start a "Special Edition Trilogy restored using Laserdisc editions"? Is there someone in 2013 that will be interested in that kind of project, still based on laserdisc captures, when there are many other projects around based on DVB digital recording? I think that laserdisc has still to show (to someone of) us its potential - OUT ruLes is a demonstration; also if not on par with the best digital editions on the market, nowadays with free software, it is possible to "squeeze" all the video information it has "hidden" into its analog pits, and after a bit (more than a bit, indeed...) of processing, the result is not that bad!

The DVB broadcasts are certainly more detailed than any laserdisc releases, but that means that the DVNR smearing is more apparent. Of course, it can vary from version to version, but only with experimentation can we find a nice compromise ;)

I'd be interested in seeing some test captures of any SE sets you have, particularly in high-motion scenes so compare to what I have already. Any SE source, of course, needs some colour correction due to that horrendous pink tint on certain shots, particularly the Mos Eisley effects shots.

I have the UK PAL and US NTSC sets.

_,,,^..^,,,_ said:

Just for curiosity, stating that "Star Wars" begins at frame 711, what is the number of the missing frame?

I'll let you know when I find out (again) as it was several months ago. I may have posted it earlier in this thread, I cannot remember.

The DVB broadcasts are certainly more detailed than any laserdisc releases, but that means that the DVNR smearing is more apparent. Of course, it can vary from version to version, but only with experimentation can we find a nice compromise ;)

Please follow my thoughts:

all of those DVB were broadcasted years ago, almost surely before 2004/5, because George "changed his mind again" and then after 2004/5 only the third version was available (also for broadcasting use). The compression techniques were not refined as today; also, the experience was shorter.

And, who can be sure that these DVB programs were recorded directly in digital domain? As satellite internal tuners were not so easy to find, probably who recorded them used a digital satellite receiver, and used a PC or a DVD recorder to capture the movies; in both cases, the original signal was digital, then converted in analog and then reconverted again from analog to digital by the PC or DVD recorder... I say so, because I did quite the same; I recorded an aerial DVB broadcast with my DVD recorder in 2005, which was connected by a SCART cable to the DVB receiver!

Actually, I think the likelihood of this is higher than you may think. DVB tuner cards (satellite or digital terrestrial) usually record the data directly to a container format on the hard drive, and have done since they have been available, AFAIK. I have owned a few cards that have been able to do this as far back as 10 years ago, and I'm sure they existed before then, judging by how many DVB file manipulation tools I used to see on a certain video capture specialist site back circa 2000(ish).

A couple of the broadcast versions I'd heard were sourced from the professional digital tapes used by the broadcasters, although I have no source for this information to hand, nor information on which ones (I think Flunk may have been one).

In any event, you are right when you say that all DVB versions have been compressed with MPEG2 in some way at some point, which will inevitably create some sort of artifacting, and that the time they were produced will have an impact on the overall quality. The laserdisc versions don't suffer from these digital artifacts, as you said, but the best laserdiscs are lacking the image detail of the best DVB captures (ignoring digital artifacts).

Let's see together some interesting facts, according to myspleen torrent:

the ANH DVD, from GKar set, which is supposedly the best of the DVB broadcasting, has three soundtracks, one German DD 5.1, one English DD 5.1, and one English 2.0; as I have not the DVD myself, I have to guess how much space those soundtracks take.

I'm not sure there is a 'best' of the DVB broadcasts. There has certainly been a lot of debate on the subject in the past! Each has their own weaknesses, Flunk, for example, is on an 8GB DVD but suffers from crushed blacks and has been sharpened up. G'Kar looks really washed out in colours (but does seem to have all the frames present) and has burnt-in subtitles, as does Reivax (which is missing loads of frames), and TB is less detailed than G'Kar overall but is often considered the most consistent.

I don't say the laserdisc, as an analog medium, is better than digital; I state that, following my thought exposed before, and my brief experience with the OUT ruLes project, it *may* be better to start with uncompressed material taken directly from laserdisc captures, using good hardwares and sources, medianed and averaged, than using compressed, low bitrate material recorded who knows how. This is only my personal opinion, that's it.

I understand what you're saying and I do agree with you.

However, its also important to realise that the DVB broadcasts are anamorphic and therefore have much better vertical resolution than any letterboxed laserdiscs, even the PAL ones. I think its a matter of whether you prefer detail with digital flaws, or less detail with a filtered analogue image. I don't mean this in an "digital is better than analogue" sense, just in a sense of knowing what is already out there.

I'd be very happy to see a nice laserdisc rip (like your OUT ruLes project, or Lee Thorogood's SE laserdisc captures) provided the colour was accurate and the smearing was cleaned up.

I must add, just for the sake of completion, that I could use my Pioneer HLD-X9 to capture not only from one NTSC US boxset, but from two different copies of it! And I could use also another MUSE player! ...If only I have learned to do proper IVTC... (xx_)

Look up the AviSynth function SelectEvery() for that. Its not too hard to learn, especially as I think the pulldown pattern per-side is always the same on the NTSC SE discs. Just SeparateFields() and find the pattern, do a SelectEvery() function set which frames to keep and Weave() back together. I will be happy to explain this in more detail in a PM should you wish.

I have your same UK PAL and US NTSC sets (actually two of the last), plus the german and french PAL boxsets (the last one in english).

Excellent! How do the French and German sets compare to the UK set? Is the video the same?

New year, new captures! Just wait some days.

No rush with the Special Editions, of course. I'm too keen to see your OUT ruLes transfers of TESB and ROTJ ;)

What would be optimal for the DVB captures is having the original raw files that were used to make the various versions.  It would give the opportunity to see what was there before processing was done in the digital domain.

Another optimal solution would be to have access to the actual "professional digital tapes" that may possibly have been used in their raw format. 

New sets of eyes and ears can make a world of difference especially with more experience.

Of course, 35mm film would be the best option .... but money and equipment would be the most obvious set backs.

I really want to see this set be a success .... for everyone to enjoy.

:)   

I have a question here: is it known whether the PAL LDs came from the same telecine as the digital broadcast recordings? If the answer is yes, than probably it would be easy to align the image of the DVB recordings to a LaserDisc capture and "steal" some additional resolution & detail. There certainly is a way to do this in After Effects, and I think there might be one in AVISynth. This way, we would have sort of "the best of both worlds".

Did not read the whole Thread bu you are aware of the fact that there

is a German DVB Broadcast in 1080P in x264 Format out?

Quality is much better than on the GKar Set.

derdon said:

Did not read the whole Thread bu you are aware of the fact that there

is a German DVB Broadcast in 1080P in x264 Format out?

Quality is much better than on the GKar Set.

You should read the whole thread....it's a very cool project.

Anyways, the x264 format, this is a compressed format like DiVX or xVid?  I haven't seen this version anywhere ..... any chance you can point folks to it for download and comparison?

derdon said:

Did not read the whole Thread bu you are aware of the fact that there

is a German DVB Broadcast in 1080P in x264 Format out?

Quality is much better than on the GKar Set.

Are you sure ? The only 1080p broadcasts I knew about were the 2004 editions and not the 1997 special editions