Since when did ROTJ become less highly regarded than even Episodes II or III? — Page 8

SpilkaBilka said:

I'm basically a fan of 2 SW movies.  Star Wars is my absolute favorite movie of all time.  The sense of adventure, excitement, the great characters, the build-up and release of tension, the incredible environment/universe, and the absolute flawless pacing make it, IMHO, the greatest movie ever made.

I do like ESB a lot... it's a great movie, but for me, it's not even close to SW.  Gonna be totally honest here- and I swear I'm not trying to troll anyone... I'm not a fan of Vader being Luke's father- in fact I think it's kind of silly and takes everything to soap-opera land.  I often wonder what other SW movies could've been like if Vader was not Luke's dad.  The universe would've been much bigger, that's for sure.

ROTJ... I like purely out of nostalgic value.  It was actually possibly my favorite SW movie when I was a kid, but now I think it's a below-average movie.  It's got some cool scenes in it, but really the only interest I have in it is that it wraps up the story of these characters that I'm incredibly invested in.

I've got nothing to say about the prequels that hasn't already been said.

Excellent post. I agree with you an all points. In my opinion, the pinnacle of the Star Wars universe is, well, Star Wars itself. Many people accuse ROTJ of being the point in the Star Wars saga where the infection set in, and that thesis can certainly be defended. But I tend to think it was actually ESB. The Vader reveal is where the series stopped taking itself seriously, and the universe (in reverse-Grinch-fashion) shrunk "three sizes that day."

Fortunately, ESB is such an expertly-executed film (with solid writing, deep characterization, and brilliant direction) that it still works, despite the mind-boggling implausibility of Vader and Luke being Father and Son. But take away that excellent execution, and you're left with a descent into utter silliness, which builds over the course of the next four films.

zee944 said:

This who-is-more-insightful competition lead to the present state, when it is cool thing to bash ROTJ and blur it together with the prequels. Once again, the loss of credibility for me here is that ROTJ haven't been heavily critisized by the fans for a very-very long time.

I disagree. I think a lot of people never liked it.

What I don't like is the "oh you think you're so hip and trendy bashing on the prequels and Jedi" mentality (some might even call it a trend) some people seem to have. As a kid, I loved Jedi and the prequels, but as I grew up and watched them again and again, flaws became more apparent and eventually I realized they were not as good films when compared to the first two and I just didn't like them nearly as much. I certainly hadn't come to that conclusion because of other people, considering I never had much exposure to Star Wars analysis growing up.

That doesn't mean people can't think that the prequels and Jedi are the best films in the series (even though that's totally wrong). Everyone likes different things.

It would be interesting, yes, but overall I'm perfectly pleased with the direction Empire did take.

Something for infinities to explore!

zee944 said:

The reason I say this is a trendy viewpont because back in the old days Return of the Jedi didn't receive much criticism from the audience; it was nearly the same widely adored as the previous two films. The critics were less satisfied, but due to their roles they always enlarge the problems and with each sequel they're more and more critical anyway.

Nice to finally have an authority on these matters.

zee944 said:

Once again, the loss of credibility for me here is that ROTJ haven't been heavily critisized by the fans for a very-very long time.

So you say it was heavily criticized by fans a very-very long time ago? Damn trendsetters...

zee944 said:
Common sense, people!

Yes, common sense please. This is only a movie, it's not your mother or girlfriend that is being critized. Could it just not be a case where some people and fans are able to take a step back and look at a film objectively, does it have to be down to following some sort of a trend? I loved both SW and ESB and still do to this day and was very disappointed by the third film, and I didn't need to over analyze it to come to this conclusion as you suggests. You know, you can dislike certain aspects and even films in this series without some sort of agenda and still be a fan. ROTJ may perhaps not be as sacrosanct to others as it is to you, just as SW and ESB may not be as sacrosanct to others as they are to me.

In the end it's what you think and like about a film that's important, not what others may think of it. I love many films that I know are overall disliked by both critics and audiences but it doesn't stop my enjoyment of it.

SpilkaBilka said:

I do like ESB a lot... it's a great movie, but for me, it's not even close to SW.  Gonna be totally honest here- and I swear I'm not trying to troll anyone... I'm not a fan of Vader being Luke's father- in fact I think it's kind of silly and takes everything to soap-opera land.  I often wonder what other SW movies could've been like if Vader was not Luke's dad.  The universe would've been much bigger, that's for sure.

I absolutely love the classic "No, I am your father." in the context of the film but I also see the bad repercussions of it. I remember when I first saw the film I definitely thought it was all a part of the seduction and temptation. When I had my doubts, I recall my dad and several friends said, "Come on, it's quite obvious, he answers Vader's call at the end of the film; "Father". and his "Ben, why didn't you tell me?" I just saw it as Luke's twisted nightmare after his confrontation, Williams sort of wrote the music for those scenes in that way as well. But I can also see a build up to this revelation in retrospect throughout the film. You also have Yoda's; "Much anger in him, like his father."

Before I make too many enemies in this thread, I have to say that I love the design of the royal guards, the shuttle and the handiwork behind the biggest puppet ever; Jabba, lovely creation. I also enjoy Ian's Emperor even though I expected something else.

And to bring this back to the threads original question, tell you the truth I have not seen episode II and III in their entirety, only clips and segments here and there, quite hard to avoid. But I'm pretty sure already from what I've seen that Jedi doesn't sink as low as those two in my view. I promised myself that I never was going to watch another after Phantom Menace but now a friend of mine has given me an opportunity to do so and I've sort of mellowed to the idea, and I must admit that I'm actually a bit curious to finally watch them in a morbid way.

msycamore said:

And to bring this back to the threads original question, tell you the truth I have not seen episode II and III in their entirety, only clips and segments here and there, quite hard to avoid. But I'm pretty sure already from what I've seen that Jedi doesn't sink as low as those two in my view. I promised myself that I never was going to watch another after Phantom Mence but now a friend of mine has given me an opportunity to do so and I've sort of mellowed to the idea, and I must admit that I'm actually a bit curious to finally watch them in a morbid way.

Really not worth it.  Morbid curiosity was my only motivation too (and a free ticket to see ROTS), but if you didn't think it could get worse than TPM, it does.  And then it does again.

That said, they're forgettable enough that any harm done won't last.

msycamore said:

Before I make too many enemies in this thread, I have to say that I love the design of the royal guards, the shuttle and the handiwork behind the biggest puppet ever; Jabba, lovely creation. I also enjoy Ian's Emperor even though I expected something else.

And to bring this back to the threads original question, tell you the truth I have not seen episode II and III in their entirety, only clips and segments here and there, quite hard to avoid. But I'm pretty sure already from what I've seen that Jedi doesn't sink as low as those two in my view. I promised myself that I never was going to watch another after Phantom Mence but now a friend of mine has given me an opportunity to do so and I've sort of mellowed to the idea, and I must admit that I'm actually a bit curious to finally watch them in a morbid way.

I've seen I-III, but I still haven't seen any of the OT SEs besides ANH:R.

SilverWook said:

BmB said:

There is a glimmer of hope for the SW-only guys here, I hear a new comic is coming out that disregards everything after SW, including ESB.

Can't remember when or what it's called.

Sounds like a throwback to the good old days. ;)

Hopefully, without the list of "no-no's" Marvel labored under.

It really is a throwback.