Since when did ROTJ become less highly regarded than even Episodes II or III? — Page 7

True.  You know what, Phantom Menace wasn't so bad looking back....

(don't kill me!)

zombie84 said:

In answer to the original question, ROTJ has never been less regarded than Episode II, but maybe on par with ROTS. The difference though is that ROTJ is still considered a classic, while Episode III is not. Part of that is because ROTJ is connected to Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back, while Sith is connected to Phantom Menace and Attacks of the Clones. It's not in good company. If you read the reviews and remember audience reaction they are pretty close to being even though.

This is it in a nutshell, though I believe ROTS to be the worst prequel and the only one that is a complete and utter waste.

SpilkaBilka said:

Am I the only one who thinks ROTS is actually even more horrible than AOTC?

TPM was terrible, and they just got worse and worse.

Nope you aren't , but I don't find TPM horrible and there are even one or two interesting things in AOTC.

zombie84 said:

Well, I dunno, I was 13 when the film came out and I really liked it. I feel like I was actually the perfect demographic--I was old enough to follow the political scenes, but young enough to still laugh at fart jokes. And when I put 2 and 2 together and realized Sidious is Palpatine it blew my mind because I felt like I had done the work to solve a puzzle, even though it was obvious to adult fans.

And like I said: I still like the film. I think I might be one of the only people here that will admit that. It's a film most people don't like, but maybe because I was enough of a kid but also enough of an adult that something clicked with me.

But saying it should appeal to six year olds means nothing. Six year olds don't have sophisticated tastes. But the rest of the series is mostly made to have it both ways: entertaining kids with graphics and actions, while stimulating adults with realistic characters and an interesting story. And, of course, there is cross-over, since adults are entertained by the effects and kids pick up on the better-than-average story.

I was 9, and it still is a part of my childhood so I can't exactly hate it. It isn't a bad film either, just severely misguided in places. It falls short as a Star Wars movie, but otherwise it's a relatively interesting slightly pulpy sci-fi actioner.

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

SpilkaBilka said:

Am I the only one who thinks ROTS is actually even more horrible than AOTC?

No!  I agree with you.  In my opinion, each successive prequel kept getting worse.  Here is my literary synopsis:

TPM has two things going for it:  (1) badass choral music over the climactic lightsaber duel, and (2) Creepy Puppet Yoda, who for some perverse reason I find mesmerizing.  AOTC and ROTS, lacking those tidbits, are just unwatchable.  Plus, they have Hayden Christensen, who actually manages to do what everyone thought impossible: make us miss Jake Lloyd.

AOTC has only one thing going for it - the existence of Christopher Lee.  He's NOT actually good in the film, but just his being there, making us wonder if he's going to raise his cape and bite someone, earns AOTC 2nd place among the PT.

ROTS is a mind-numbing video game with nothing going for it at all.  I've seen it three times and cannot remember a single scene or character from the film, apart from 10 seconds where someone on a speeder goes to Ben's hut with a baby.

TPM is a decent movie with some good points. AOTC is an okay movie with one or two good points, though it criminally wastes the Prince of Darkness and a wonderful sequence possibility between Dooku and Obi-Wan. ROTS has...nothing. It's is dull, empty, repetitive and completely unsurprising in any regard.

I saw AOTC in Omnimax which is disorienting just walking inside the big sideways dome. I got physically sick seeing AOTC on that curved dome screen, and even that was better than ROTS.

Tyrphanax said:

georgec said:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Episode_VI:_Return_of_the_Jedi

 

The film is set in 4 ABY, one year after the Empire's occupation of Cloud City, when Luke Skywalker and friends travel to Tatooine to rescue their friend Han Solo from the vile Jabba the Hutt.

 

I win. That's for a guy that ate SW trivia up in the 90s but hasn't thought much of it since. I believe the EU states that that year was spent looking for Solo, as well, so no time to visit Yoda.

Now you're getting into Shadows of the Empire territory.

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

To me, the biggest problem with ROTJ is the gargantuan plot holes.  In particular, the rescue plan is incomprehensible, and the emperor's plan to turn Luke makes little sense (particularly since he is telling Luke his plan).

However, it is still a really fun movie and the two new characters (Jabba and the Emperor) steal every scene they are in.  The climactic scene with Vader (sans "no") is terrifically done.  The ewoks are fine - there could certainly be creatures like that on some alien world.  I still think it's an excellent movie despite the flaws... given the direction ESB took the "saga", ROTJ was an almost perfect wrap-up IMHO.

Yes, it is the script that hurts the impact the most, as every possible audience involvement is limited to only surface reactions to traditional fantasy adventure stereotypes. The originality has dissipated a great deal along with the inspired plottings leaving us with a hurriedly rushed conclusion that is little more than a one-film wrap up that serves as a 1983 updating of a lower grade serial.

Oh, and making Han a big bitch for the entire film. Carbonite=weight gain, bitchiness, lack of interest, thought of killing off your character, and serving no real purpose anymore.

For me ROTJ is still a classic despite its flaws. Why? It's an adventure film, one that could easily fall into another earlier time with its simplistic and typical overall plot, but it never loses the audience. It works for what it is.

I will admit that I always found the climactic duel extremely underwhelming as far as the fight itself, and that the SE trilogy made its one big contribution by substituting Yub Nub for something that at least felt a bit more fitting for the ending. Not that it's necessarily the exact right choice but for me it flows better.

SilverWook said:

Corpsey finally got a action figure this year. What's next? Extra crispy Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru with battle damaged homestead playset?

Who do I have to seduce at Hasbro to get a Jaxxon figure made? ;)

Post of the thread. Sold exclusively at KFC locations nationwide: The Col.'s extra crispy recipe Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru action figures. Limited quantities only.

SilverWook said:

Corpsey finally got a action figure this year. What's next? Extra crispy Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru with battle damaged homestead playset?

It (action) figures. ;)

You know, since fans found Krayt dragon bones out on those sand dunes decades later, those skeletons could be buried in Tunisia somewhere!

Lucasfilm is missing out on the garden shed market by not making a Lars homestead igloo replica.

I wonder why the first set of figures I posted pictures of are recommended from ages 4 and up and the second set are from 18 and up... ;)

zee944 said:

As for fans who think Return of the Jedi is no good... what are they a fan of? One movie of six? One movie of a trilogy? Or one and a half because the first is still O.K.? Is that Star Wars? It isn't. It's just one (and a half) movie that happens to be a part of a saga. I have high standards myself but these expectations is getting beyond ridicoulos.

I think the general idea is that SW and Empire are great, Jedi is tolerable due to its venerable status (and that it's still better than the prequels), and the prequels suck.

I think the vast majority of users here are only fans of three of the six movies, how is that any less silly than only being fans of two?

I never understand why various people say it's "trendy" to feel this or that way about Star Wars. I don't think anyone else's idea of the films has influenced my personal like/dislike of one film or another; Jedi unfortunately just isn't as good as the previous two films, just like the Prequels weren't as good as the previous three films, and I think that's a fairly objective conclusion that many people have come to on their own, independently.

I think what it really comes down to is whether you are looking for the good or the bad when you're watching these movies.  With the prequels, the lameness tends to override the good parts when you are trying to enjoy them, but watching ROTJ, there is so much good here if you are looking for it and not ways to tear it down. More than tolerable IMO.  It has jaw-dropping moments.  That is why so many people have said it was their favorite for so many years.  I  agree that it has become trendy to bash ROTJ, but I think it has a lot to offer and a very cool ending to the trilogy. And in terms of moral lesson it is the very best of the OT, hands down.

1990osu said:

I think what it really comes down to is whether you are looking for the good or the bad when you're watching these movies.  With the prequels, the lameness tends to override the good parts when you are trying to enjoy them, but watching ROTJ, there is so much good here if you are looking for it and not ways to tear it down. More than tolerable IMO.  It has jaw-dropping moments.  That is why so many people have said it was their favorite for so many years.  I  agree that it has become trendy to bash ROTJ, but I think it has a lot to offer and a very cool ending to the trilogy. And in terms of moral lesson it is the very best of the OT, hands down.

My primary reason for ROTJ being my favorite of the three is that it's silly enough to have a sequence like "Yub Nub".

1990osu said:

I think what it really comes down to is whether you are looking for the good or the bad when you're watching these movies.  With the prequels, the lameness tends to override the good parts when you are trying to enjoy them, but watching ROTJ, there is so much good here if you are looking for it and not ways to tear it down.

The thing is that it's cool while I'm watching it, but then if I start to analyze it after it's over, it just gets worse and worse as a film.

It's a fun film. It's not bad. It's certainly not worse than the prequels (though I can see where people would think that, considering it shares company with the two greats of the saga, which makes its flaws stand out more; whereas Clones and Sith share company with the heavily reviled prequels, which blunts the crappiness to a point), but the more you think about it and compare it to the other two films in the OT, the worse it seems.

Now there are two of them!

I'm basically a fan of 2 SW movies.  Star Wars is my absolute favorite movie of all time.  The sense of adventure, excitement, the great characters, the build-up and release of tension, the incredible environment/universe, and the absolute flawless pacing make it, IMHO, the greatest movie ever made.

I do like ESB a lot... it's a great movie, but for me, it's not even close to SW.  Gonna be totally honest here- and I swear I'm not trying to troll anyone... I'm not a fan of Vader being Luke's father- in fact I think it's kind of silly and takes everything to soap-opera land.  I often wonder what other SW movies could've been like if Vader was not Luke's dad.  The universe would've been much bigger, that's for sure.

ROTJ... I like purely out of nostalgic value.  It was actually possibly my favorite SW movie when I was a kid, but now I think it's a below-average movie.  It's got some cool scenes in it, but really the only interest I have in it is that it wraps up the story of these characters that I'm incredibly invested in.

I've got nothing to say about the prequels that hasn't already been said.

SpilkaBilka said:

I do like ESB a lot... it's a great movie, but for me, it's not even close to SW.  Gonna be totally honest here- and I swear I'm not trying to troll anyone... I'm not a fan of Vader being Luke's father- in fact I think it's kind of silly and takes everything to soap-opera land.  I often wonder what other SW movies could've been like if Vader was not Luke's dad.  The universe would've been much bigger, that's for sure.

Several people here also think that way.

While I certainly like Empire most of all, I would also love to see an alternate version of the universe where Vader is just Vader. And I totally agree about the shrinking universe thing... I would never have made Luke and Leia siblings; Vader being Luke's father was crazy and gut-wrenching and added whole new levels and elements and purpose to Luke's story, but Leia being Luke's sister is just kinda... meh. Seen it. And it definitely shrinks the galaxy way too much.

At the same time, though, I've come to love Star Wars so much for what it is that it's hard to think of such a major plot point not existing.

To me, Star Wars brings out the kid in all of us if we let it, even the first two.  The ewoks don't bother me.  I like the part with the 3PO bedtime story when the ewoks show that the grumpy Han Solo is actually soft at heart:)

I think the part with Han about to get cooked and eaten is hilarious. 

I also think that people who don't like the ewoks may not realize that this is a tribute/sendup of classic b&w adventure movies with cannibals.

I remember guys in my high school agreeing that ROTJ was the best, in-person.  This would have been around 2003. 

TV's Frink said:

AntcuFaalb said:

1990osu said:

I think what it really comes down to is whether you are looking for the good or the bad when you're watching these movies.  With the prequels, the lameness tends to override the good parts when you are trying to enjoy them, but watching ROTJ, there is so much good here if you are looking for it and not ways to tear it down. More than tolerable IMO.  It has jaw-dropping moments.  That is why so many people have said it was their favorite for so many years.  I  agree that it has become trendy to bash ROTJ, but I think it has a lot to offer and a very cool ending to the trilogy. And in terms of moral lesson it is the very best of the OT, hands down.

My primary reason for ROTJ being my favorite of the three is that it's silly enough to have a sequence like "Yub Nub".

Not sure if serious.

I'm quite serious.

As a kid ROTJ was probably my favorite from the trilogy. As I grew up TESB became my favorite and now it's pretty close with SW and TESB. As someone has said, SW is the best movie and TESB is the best Star Wars movie.

But it has been tough to watch ROTJ anymore, it seems that every viewing is more and more difficult. I never rewind my movies but I'd really liked to when the Ewok stuff is beginning to happen, ugh. But no, it's not worse than the PT which I don't watch at all anymore.

Also being here on the forums has probably affected me a little unknowingly. Maybe around 2005 or so I didn't have a problem with Leia being Luke's sister for example, she was and that was that, never gave it that much of a thought. But now when thinking alternatives and seeing what you guys always think I do agree a lot. Also there are other points which give it a lazy and easy finish.