The 1997 OT Special Edition Trilogy Preservation Standards Thread (* unfinished *) — Page 7

Jetrell Fo said:

The standard levels being too loud...are you speaking about the way DTS has them set via the whitepaper on it?  My other question I guess is going to be, are you going to release a set based on your work?

:)

'standard' was a poor choice of words, 'stock' may have been more fitting. The theatrical DTS volume levels are way louder than any audio you would find on a commercially available DVD, for the sake of consistency I think it is essential to reduce it. I lowered it by 8dB to make it more 'standard' to a DVD/Blu-Ray format. Imagine watching whilst listening to the laserdisc audio, only to switch to the DTS track and be deafened because the level is so much louder! Aside from SRC it is the only real processing that has occurred, although I have made another master at 24-bit for compatibility with lossless HD audio formats (and there is no noticeable difference in the sound quality). In fact, I think my sync was matched up well enough, looking at my master files I have no crossfading on the reel overlaps this time whereas on my first attempts I did, which takes time longer to render as it is another processing step.

I can make them available if people want them, I haven't up to this point because most people commented that they wanted to sync these mixes themselves, and I didn't see much point in releasing just the audio when there are no actual video sources to watch them against that are frame accurate (or as close to frame accurate as we've thus far calculated, msycamore's ANH m2v file excluded of course, along with my own colour-corrected HD/Upscaled SD project for my projector).

I've been avoiding considering the idea of releasing my own HD video sources with the audio because I don't want to undermine other projects that are happening.

Thanks for responding and and for helping me to understand the process you've gone through.  I totally respect your decision too.

Darth Mallwalker said:

 

You_Too said:

Maybe eac3to is that smart?

Sure, why not?
Surely I'm not the first to think of that idea.
Shirley might be an eac3to developer :)



Back to frame counts, I think I'm noticing a trend.
Seems like each movie is split into three 'chunks' for lack of a better term.

___ANH_________ESB______ROTJ__0-thru
_85225_______75306_______84511 -thru
147672______151133______142918 -thru end

Sometimes the chunk size match the LD sides, but not always.
Among NTSC LDs the pulldown cadence doesn't change at reel boundaries-- it only change at chunk boundaries (or side boundaries) which make them easy to IVTC.
The chunks are all less than one hour.
I'm wondering if those telecine were stored on three tapes recorded in "1-hour mode" if there exist such a thing among professional tape formats.

Metal has already pointed out some spots where digital broadcast was breaking up and frames went missing.
Besides those type of transmission errors, do we know of any missing frames
which are NOT surrounding those chunk boundaries?

 

I think you're on to something here with those chunk numbers. 

The only ones I know of from TB that are missing in non-chunk places are:

ANH: 50172

ESB: 32993 (or there abouts, difficult to pin-point this one exactly)

ROTJ I haven't looked at yet.

Not sure how the frames went missing, there are a few ways it could have happened.

EDIT: Interesting... it seems the PAL laserdisc of ANH is very nearly frame-for-frame accurate, at least to the reel change numbers. I captured it a couple of months back and averaged 5 captures. I've just found the master file sat on my laptop and checked it, the numbers match up until the penultimate shot where 172825 seems to be missing. I don't remember inserting any null frames, and each frame around the expected points is there, although the breaks are different for this set, side 2 starts 90295.

So there it is, only 1 frame missing from that disc by my count, but would like it confirmed of course ;)

Doesn't Lee Thorogood's SE97 release hail from this same set?

Ok here's something I don't understand.

DJ gave me the 2004 SE NTSC version of ANH, so we could use it as a reference to synch to. The SW title card appears at 719, not 711.

You_Too said:

Ok here's something I don't understand.

DJ gave me the 2004 SE NTSC version of ANH, so we could use it as a reference to synch to. The SW title card appears at 719, not 711.

I cannot explain that as I'm from a PAL country, for me the SW title card appears at 689 on the 2004 DVD release. Maybe its something to do with IVTC that accounts for the discrepancy?

CapableMetal said:

Ok, here are the 'standardised' reel change numbers from the previous posts

 

ANH (originally posted by Darth Mallwalker):

0 = first frame

711 = STAR WARS title card appear

28343 = reel 2

59025 = reel 3

90295 = reel 4

117270 = reel 5

147672 = reel 6

 

ESB (originally posted by msycamore):

 

0 = first frame

711 = STAR WARS title card appear

30988 = reel 2

59815 = reel 3

91134 = reel 4

122461 = reel 5

151133 = reel 6

 

ROTJ (originally posted by msycamore):

0 = first frame

712 = STAR WARS title card appear

25055 = reel 2

54317 = reel 3

84511 = reel 4

112587 = reel 5

142918 = reel 6

172032 = reel 7

 

 

Also, I haven't checked the TB of ROTJ yet, but msycamore has previously reported "11 frames around the reel breaks and a few more at various points" missing.

I decided to re-sync my old project files against these staring points and my findings are as follows:

missing frames (when comparing the sources to each other)

GOUT: 3544, which is the last frame of the opening star destroyer shot.

Flunk: 7370-7378, Leia and R2, technically not missing but heavily corrupted

TB: 50173 Luke listening to Ben second frame of shot (exact frame deduced from visible dirt)

Flunk: 53288-53299, death start briefing, bottom quarter of frame corrupted

Flunk: 85123, last frame of Leia before Alderaan explodes (the aspect ratio also changes slightly after this shot with more cropped from the sides)

TB: 85223-85225
Flunk: 85224-85225
Reivax: 85225
This is the transition between the Alderaan explosion and saber training on the falcon  

Reivax: 132114-132163, saber dual

TB: 147671-147672
Flunk: 147671-147673
Reivax: 147672-147674
Lowering of an R2 unit/prep of x-wing.

GOUT: ends at 173114 where a VHS rip of the credits are edited in.

TR: ends at 179418 credits don't quite finish.

by inserting blank frames at the appropriate places the reel changes all line up with the start of a shot, also this probably isn't all the corrupted frames in flunk.

ESB:

These are all done under the assumption that 75205 is missing from both TB and GKAR (also I got bored of writing descriptions of the scenes)

TB: 32733 missing,
75206 missing,
93228-93229 corrupted,
93230-93241 missing,
151133 missing

All reel changes line up to a scene change

ROTJ:

TB: 10612, missing, bib fortuna (may not be this exact frame need to check)
84507, missing, speeder bike (should be ~84511),
142911, missing, running ewok (should be ~142918),
175215, missing, vader unmasking

Then as some unknown missing frames throughout, the reel changes hit these frames coming up 8 frames short when compared to the above reference

reel 2 - 25054 - 1 short

reel 3 - 54314 - 3 short

reel 4 - 84507 - 4 short

reel 5 - 112582 - 5 short

reel 6 - 142911 - 7 short

reel 7 - 172024 - 8 short

Will need to compare it to the gout/04SE to find exactly which frames are missing.

Don't know why ROTJ got such a raw deal with these transfers.

Saw this over @ 35mm forum .....

93. Star Wars: Episode IV – A New Hope (Special Edition) - $1000.00

These are unedited times for the reels on the DTS Cinema Discs for the 1997 Special Edition.

ANH (DTS Cinema)

R1T5 - 19:52
R2T5 - 21:29
R3T5 - 21:52
R4T5 - 16:55
R5T5 - 21:17
R6T5 - 22:14

TESB (DTS Cinema)

R1T5 - 21:41
R2T5 - 20:14
R3T5 - 21:58
R4T5 - 21:57
R5T5 - 20:07
R6T5 - 22:17

ROTJ (DTS Cinema)

R1T5 - 17:33
R2T5 - 20:30
R3T5 - 21:08
R4T5 - 19:40
R5T5 - 21:15
R6T5 - 20:22
R7T5 - 15:31

Okay, since these are the times of each reel of audio, and the film uses time code to sync the two together, would these times be accurate in regards to the 35mm films?  Aside from the additional bits that can be removed from this audio due it's being there just for change over of course.

Jetrell Fo said:

 

These are unedited times for the reels on the DTS Cinema Discs for the 1997 Special Edition.

ANH (DTS Cinema)

R1T5 - 19:52
R2T5 - 21:29
R3T5 - 21:52
R4T5 - 16:55
R5T5 - 21:17
R6T5 - 22:14

TESB (DTS Cinema)

R1T5 - 21:41
R2T5 - 20:14
R3T5 - 21:58
R4T5 - 21:57
R5T5 - 20:07
R6T5 - 22:17

ROTJ (DTS Cinema)

R1T5 - 17:33
R2T5 - 20:30
R3T5 - 21:08
R4T5 - 19:40
R5T5 - 21:15
R6T5 - 20:22
R7T5 - 15:31

Okay, since these are the times of each reel of audio, and the film uses time code to sync the two together, would these times be accurate in regards to the 35mm films?  Aside from the additional bits that can be removed from this audio due it's being there just for change over of course.

I'm not sure that I properly understand your question. If you mean the the 35mm reel would be the same length then we cannot be certain until someone examines a 35mm print with the time code on. If I had the money I'd try to buy one and check it out, but I don't so its academic at this point.

I've just checked the numbers for ESB and I'm showing each reel to be shorter than the times you have posted (unprocessed), all are SMTPE Film Sync 24fps time code (mm:ss:ff):

R1T5 = 21:38:03
R2T5 = 20:12:01
R3T5 = 21:55:01
R4T5 = 21:54:23
R5T5 = 20:04:23
R6T5 =  22:14:03

CapableMetal said:

I'm not sure that I properly understand your question. If you mean the the 35mm reel would be the same length then we cannot be certain until someone examines a 35mm print with the time code on. If I had the money I'd try to buy one and check it out, but I don't so its academic at this point.

I've just checked the numbers for ESB and I'm showing each reel to be shorter than the times you have posted (unprocessed), all are SMTPE Film Sync 24fps time code (mm:ss:ff):

R1T5 = 21:38:03
R2T5 = 20:12:01
R3T5 = 21:55:01
R4T5 = 21:54:23
R5T5 = 20:04:23
R6T5 =  22:14:03

I guess I was wondering if the times I posted were the same as each reel of 35mm film for each movie.  The numbers you've posted might be totals without those extra change over audio bits at the beginning of each reel.

This stuff can be so hard to verify.  You'd figure there would be some websites where this info would actually be available no matter how "useless" the info might be to some.

AntcuFaalb said:

TB is sorely lacking in seeders on MySpleen. I'm sure any help in that respect would be greatly appreciated.

If I had the TB I'd help you out but I do not.  I wasn't aware that anyone was even uploading it.....shows you how much attention I've paid to the spleen lately.

;)

Jetrell Fo said:

CapableMetal said:

R1T5 = 21:38:03
R2T5 = 20:12:01
R3T5 = 21:55:01
R4T5 = 21:54:23
R5T5 = 20:04:23
R6T5 =  22:14:03

I guess I was wondering if the times I posted were the same as each reel of 35mm film for each movie.  The numbers you've posted might be totals without those extra change over audio bits at the beginning of each reel.

This stuff can be so hard to verify.  You'd figure there would be some websites where this info would actually be available no matter how "useless" the info might be to some.

Those numbers are the length of the audio tracks with the overlaps included before I put them together, so they are the times as they come off the discs without any manipulation.

It is hard to verify. The best we can do is guess at the video reel lengths by taking the numbers we have as a 'standard' reference and getting the time lengths from those (SMPTE Film format). They should be shorter than the audio files by a few seconds each. The only way we would know of the 'true' reel lengths would be to get a 35mm reel of the film and examine it, which would also tell us whether our 'standard' numbers were right or not. Without that I cannot see a way to be 100% certain.

Some pics of my ANH SE Japan LD, 2nd Pressing....

From TESB .....

From ROTJ..............

Here are a few frames from the ANH SE PAL laserdisc for comparison. Averaged from 5 captures and filtered once with DeGrainMedian(). No colour correction applied (although white level reduced slightly):

In terms of resolution, its not as good as the TB broadcast, but better than the US set. It also has fewer frames missing (I think my count on my previous capture was 1 frame) from the numbers we've got. It has the same smearing as the other releases, of course. The colours are also the most saturated of the SE releases I've seen, meaning the pink scenes on Tatooine are very pink indeed, but its fixable. I've only captured side 1 so far (the film is split over 2 sides on the PAL release).

The Japan LD's are spread out over 2 discs as well.  The 1st pressing is the Silver Box like the Widescreen VHS Box.  The 2nd pressing sports the new artwork and drops the Special Edition moniker.

Jetrell Fo said:

The Japan LD's are spread out over 2 discs as well.  The 1st pressing is the Silver Box like the Widescreen VHS Box.  The 2nd pressing sports the new artwork and drops the Special Edition moniker.

 

PAL ANH and ESB are on one disc (about 1 hour per side). ROTJ is on 2.

EDIT: My bad, by one disc, I mean a disc each! They'd have to do a 200% speed-up to fit both films on one disc, which would be amusing but very impractical!

The PAL set is in a silver box too, similar if not the same to the first pressing of the Japanese set. I saw a Japanese silver-box set on eBay a couple of weeks ago, and noticed is had the 5.1 AC3 audio, which the PAL laserdiscs don't have. Does the Japanese set you have also have the 5.1 AC3 too?

CapableMetal said:

Jetrell Fo said:

The Japan LD's are spread out over 2 discs as well.  The 1st pressing is the Silver Box like the Widescreen VHS Box.  The 2nd pressing sports the new artwork and drops the Special Edition moniker.

 

PAL ANH and ESB are on one disc (about 1 hour per side). ROTJ is on 2.

EDIT: My bad, by one disc, I mean a disc each! They'd have to do a 200% speed-up to fit both films on one disc, which would be amusing but very impractical!

The PAL set is in a silver box too, similar if not the same to the first pressing of the Japanese set. I saw a Japanese silver-box set on eBay a couple of weeks ago, and noticed is had the 5.1 AC3 audio, which the PAL laserdiscs don't have. Does the Japanese set you have also have the 5.1 AC3 too?

http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/12065/PILF-2434/Star-Wars-Trilogy:-Special-Edition-%281997%29

Yes......

http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/00008/PILF-2860/Star-Wars-Trilogy:-Special-Edition-%281997%29

This is the OTHER set I have from Japan....2nd pressing.

A few shots of just how pink the PAL set truly is, with 'corrected' colour on the right...