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Since when did ROTJ become less highly regarded than even Episodes II or III?

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I think Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back are obviously masterpieces both. 

What I don't understand is the critical snobbery and adults thumbing their nose at ROTJ. 

ROTJ was and still is incredibly popular with everyone who has not heard from the internet that they are supposed to like ESB better.  Growing up, my brother always wanted to watch ROTJ and it's still his favorite.  It had extremely memorable characters in Jabba the Hutt (as lifelike as Yoda) and Emperor Palpatine, who basically represented the devil in the throne room scene. 

And it had memorable, realistic action set pieces.  Who can forget the speeder bike chase or the moment when Luke turns on his green saber for the first time on the Sail Barge?  Who has ever topped the incredibly realistic, 3-D space battle at the end since 1983?  Nobody.

And ROTJ deals with extremely powerful themes in temptation, redemption and forgiveness in the long throne room sequence- there is a strong moral undercurrent there that is far more striking and far more well-defined than in the 2 previous movies. 

ROTJ is arguably the best of the OT.

I wish that I could just wish my feelings away...but I can't.  Wishful wishing can only lead to wishes wished for in futile wishfulness, which is not what I wish to wish for. 

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ROTJ is certainly my favourite of the OT films and possibly of the entire series. It brings the fun back into Star Wars. People who wanted another TESB are missing the point entirely. The saga has to end on a high note, all the good guys have to survive and the bad guy has to redeem himself. It is the very definition of the old adage "all's well that ends well". I still get a lump in my throat when Luke looks at the three spirits at the end (admittedly, the sight of Sebastian Shaw gave a warmer feeling - I don't object to Hayden Christensen, it's just not shot well and he's wearing the wrong clothes!).

Snobbery may be the reason the internet fans (who hardly represent Star Wars fans as a whole, let's face it) have turned their back on the film but I think it's more to do with the original fans who reached adulthood in the nineties and felt a bit embarrassed by a movie that had Ewoks in it.

That's some bad hat, Harry
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Really? Most people i know think the prequels sucked and love Return of the Jedi.

I have met or talked to maybe one or two people who think Revenge of the Sith is on par with Empire strikes back but i disagree, they can like it all they want but its shit.

I can rewatch Jedi even if it is not as good as the first 2 films it still is a very fine movie nonetheless in  my opinion.  On the other hand i cannot watch five minutes of Hayden's atrocious acting.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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I just don't like it that much and I never have.

I see it as the contractual obligation album of the OT.

If it wasn't for Mark and Ian it would be unwatchably bad.

It's marginally better than any PT film but only just.

If that's snobbery I must be a snob.

Personally I think it's snobbery to insist that anyone who doesn't agree with your opinion is a snob.

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ROTJ, in spite of its flaws, really appeals to me as well. Of all the films, it has long been the most fun in my mind. Now, with a more analytical understanding of life, ESB has really grown on me, while it used to be my least favorite. I think ROTJ has more weak moments, but it also has the strongest IMO. I honestly get a bit choked up watching a silent (key word) Vader looking back at forth between his son and his master, deciding whose side he's on. It's very powerful to me and ties everything together nicely. I have my own ideas for changes, and I really am excited to see a Revisited version, but nevertheless, I think it's a great film.

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"They can like it all they want but its [sic] shit." Well, there's nothing like an open mind...and yours is nothing like an open mind!

Personally, if you're talking in terms of how dark the film is, then ROTS knocks TESB into a cocked hat. You simply don't get darker than your main character being burned to a crisp or little kids being murdered in cold blood. Unfortunately, the film seems like a knee-jerk response to all the whingers and whiners (who think they are so great in number but in reality are only a tiny minority of the audience who saw the film...probably!) who moaned about Jar Jar and the love story (eurgh, girls and kissing!), almost as though Lucas was saying "Oh, you want dark? Well here you are then." Of course some people still complained because Lucas dared to introduce a vageuly comedic element with the buzz droids - oh no, how awful!

Sorry, I'm a defender of the film and if ROTJ isn't my favourite then ROTS is. Oh, and it's easy to say that most people you know think the prequels suck if you only know three people!

(I have my tongue in my cheek, skyjedi2005; I'm not especially bothered what you like or don't like so please, don't take the ribbing personally, I'm only having a laugh.)

That's some bad hat, Harry
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It's easy to say the PT is bobbins if you think it's bobbins.

I think ROTJ is almost as bobbins.

It's not a unique perspective but I'm not unique all the time.

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ROTJ is a great film. I don't find it as good as ESB or ANH, but it is certainly great. As a kid I wore out all 3 of my OT VHS tapes, but never found ROTJ to be as exciting or well paced as the other two. I also has a hard time believing ewoks could help defeat the Empire.

As to it being thought of as a lesser film than AOTC or ROTS is a new one on me, and its got nothing to do with there being a love story (ESB?), or merchandising-friendly characters in the PT, its just that I don't believe in any of the characters because the acting is so terrible, McDiarmid excluded. I cared about the OT characters and didn't want any of them to die. Watching the PT I couldn't care less if they did die. I often find myself watching the excessive clutter in the background of every single frame because I find the actors' performances so two-dimensional most of the time.

 

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My gripe is that ANH and ESB showed the rebels bickering with each other all the time while they acted like the Superfriends in ROTJ. It was like all the conflict between everybody got encased in carbonite and forgotten about. Say whatever you want about TPM but Qui-Gon butted heads at various times with the Jedi Council, Queen Amidala, Obi-Wan, Captain Panaka and probably other people even though they were all supposed to be on the same side.

Before the Ewoks adopted the rebels, they were badass. They were about ready to grill up smugglers with a side of Jedi at first. But after they adopted Han, Luke and Leia, they just became too cutesy.

The second Death Star... look, I'll acknowledge it serves a different purpose this time around. In ANH, it was the dragon to be slain. In ROTJ, it was the labyrinth, the hell/netherworld the hero must venture into to rescue somebody. But at the end of the day, they don't look all that differently or serve a much different purpose in either story.

Leia discovered that Adolf Hitler is her father and... what, just forgets it? If anybody found out Hitler was a great grandfather or something, they'd have some kind of reaction, even if it was destroy all the evidence and "silence" anybody who might know.

Harrison Ford basically slept through the movie.

Speaking of which, the stuff with Jabba and rescuing Han seems like padding. The rebels had to rescue Han but the ordeal feels a little dragged out.

Don't get me wrong, ROTJ has a lot going for it. The stuff with Vader, Luke and the Emperor is the dramatic high point of the entire saga as far as I'm concerned (but only with Shaw as Anakin's ghost) and the space battle hasn't been topped.

All I really want is each film as it was originally seen and heard in theaters; no fixes, corrections, "improvements" or modifications necessary.

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I don't think it's less highly regarded than any of the PT, at least not on this board. The prevailing opinion here seems to be:

-SW & ESB

-ROTJ

-Prequels

In that order. Personally, I would never consider ROTJ anywhere near as bad as the PT. But at the same time, I don't think it really stacks up against its predecessors, either. Granted, when I was a child it was easily my favorite of the three. My views have since matured, but I still find it very enjoyable (if somewhat cringe-inducing in a few places). ROTJ I like. SW and ESB I really like. The PT I utterly despise (aside from Frink's treatments, of course). And while I can't claim to speak for everyone, it does seem to be the majority opinion in the circles I run in.

Every 27th customer will get a ball-peen hammer, free!

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thecolorsblend said:

Speaking of which, the stuff with Jabba and rescuing Han seems like padding. The rebels had to rescue Han but the ordeal feels a little dragged out.

Not to mention the rescue plan makes as much sense as Obi-Wan's investigation into the clone mystery.

Yoda deciding to die mid conversation is shockingly awful.

Why make such a fuss about Luke's training if he is only going hang on to life until the moment Luke returns?

It rivals Padme's death for the most stupid death of a Star Wars character.

YUP it's even worse than Boba Fett's skyswim to destiny.

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Hmm that is the first time I've heard if people putting AOTC above Jedi. 

Jedi was always my favorite. ESB is better, but the final act of Jedi is so epic and emotional.

Some tried to say Sith was better tha Jedi. Sith has some nice moments but it still has all the problems of the prequels.

“Grow up. These are my Disney's movies, not yours.”

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Some weird people claim III > VI

 

those people are weird.

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Although a certain infamous magazine article in the 90's is often cited as the beginnings of ROTJ bashing, there were negative reviews back in 1983.

SF author Norman Spinrad wrote a piece for Starlog that caused a lot of angry letters to be written. It might have even caused more of a fuss than than David Gerrold's review of ESB three years prior.

Forum Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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I always liked Jedi best growing up, because, and only because, it had so much action. The forest/space/saber battle was awesome. I always rooter for the Empire. Ewoks were always lame.

As I grew up, I realized the Empire was a superior film, and that Jedi was just a flashier rehash of Star Wars that was saved in big part by the conclusion of the Vader/Luke story.

Keep Circulating the Tapes.

END OF LINE

(It hasn’t happened yet)

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ROTJ is a decent film. But it largely coasts on just how much awesome material was created for ESB. I think George was right to want a happy ending, I don't think Han dying or anything like that would have added anything to the film.

That said it's kind of a lame conclusion with lots of plotholes.

And I'd certainly more than like to see a sort of alternate universe take where the empire doesn't go down so pathetically easily. I like the dark, desparate struggle shown in ESB, but you can go too far. There needs to be light at the end of the tunnel too. And I guess in that sense ROTJ delivers.

In terms of quality, I'd say it's a pretty linear decline. ROTJ being slightly worse than ESB, TPM worse than ROTJ, AOTC worse than etc.

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Ive only read something like that over at TF.net.  But then again those people think the PT beats the OOT hands down anyway and if u disagree with anybody, the PT gestapo will get ya!  I enjoy the OOT in their numerical order.

"There's no cluster of midiclorians that controls my destiny!" -Han Solo, from a future revision of ANH

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I've never seen Adolf Hitler as a worthy comparison to Darth Vader. But, then, at this moment in time, I don't know who would be (it's early in my part of the world right now and I've yet to have my first coffee).

Regarding Yoda's death, I've always seen it as Yoda holding on to life until he tells Luke what he has to - that there is another Skywalker (the last thing we hear him say in TESB is "there is another" so this seems logical to me).

And while the rescue of Han Solo is a sizeable chunk of the film it's also incredibly fun - the cantina scene of ANH writ large if you will. The choreography in the fight scenes is bloomin awful, though.

Irvin Kershner said that the characters move from one set piece to another and never seem to be in any real danger. I agree with him there with the exception of Luke being fried by The Emperor - although before the addition of Vader's "No. Noooo." he seemed to deliberate just a few frames too long before making his sacrifice (ooh, that's going to make me some friends round here). He also said that he felt the actors were going through the motions - well, he may be right there, too. Carrie was too pre-occupied with the old marching powder and both Harrison and Hammill had had ideas for the development of their characters turned down so maybe they were unhappy at what they perceived as being too lightweight a film. However, when Kersh says he would never have shown Vader's face I disagree with him absolutely. The moment between the unmasked Vader and Luke is extremely tender and one of the most moving scenes in the entire saga.

ROTJ has a job to do, which is to tie up the loose ends and bring closure to the story. It also serves to remind us that Star Wars is kids' fare. TESB developsthe characters and adds depth to the whole thing. That job done, we can now go back to having fun and if one word can sum up ROTJ then "fun" would be it.

That's some bad hat, Harry
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Easterhay said:


Regarding Yoda's death, I've always seen it as Yoda holding on to life until he tells Luke what he has to - that there is another Skywalker (the last thing we hear him say in TESB is "there is another" so this seems logical to me).

The whole structure of that meeting makes no sense at all.

Luke returns to complete his training (we are lead to believe this is the first time he has seen Yoda since rushing off to 'save' his friends, therefore he has had days of training not years).

Yoda is on his feet but a bit weak at the beginning of the scene, he gets rapidly weaker as Luke presses his question and dies almost immediately after telling Luke it's probably going to happen soon.

Translate that to a real world situation.

You haven't seen your university tutor or priest for a long while a few days into beginning a course, he says hello, coughs, takes a lie down, tells you know enough to pass and dies in mid sentence.

I know fantasy films are fantastic but they have to feel realistic to sell the fantasy and this scene plays out like a shopping list being ticked.

Luke keeps his promise and returns, 

Vader is Luke's dad,

The 'other' is another Skywalker,

Yoda is dead and out of the story until the ghostly group hug at the end.

It's clunky unrealistic goofy writing and just the sort of thing that ruined the PT.

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Yeah, as I said it coasts on the material established by ESB. Without that connection the story simply wouldn't have worked.

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Some people just think different. 

One day we will have properly restored versions of the Original Unaltered Trilogy (OUT); or 1977, 1980, 1983 Theatrical released versions (Like 4K77,4K80 and 4K83); including Prequels. So that future generations can enjoy these historic films that changed cinema forever.

Yoda: Try not, do or do not, there is no try.

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1990osu said:
I think Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back are obviously masterpieces both. 

What I don't understand is the critical snobbery and adults thumbing their nose at ROTJ. 

ROTJ is arguably the best of the OT.


I don't remember many (if any) bad words said about ROTJ back in '83, or in the several years that followed. The backlash seemed to start in the late-1990s, early-2000s. I don't know why, but I can't imagine anyone watching ANY of the prequels and thinking that ROTJ is poor in comparison. :-/

I love ROTJ, and while I don't think it's the best of the OT, I wouldn't argue with anyone who feels that it's the best.

There was a thread a while back where people were defending ROTJ and I posted a list of what I considered to be "goosebump moments" in the film (and by some sort of miracle, I happened to actually find it by doing a search):
http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Return-of-the-Jedi-the-worst-OT-film/post/350188/#TopicPost350188

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There are people who love the film and always have but being critical about the film isn't recent.

I remember feeling excited by it but also unsatisfied some of my contemporaries were less kind.

One friend of mine refused to watch the VHS with me when it came out but would watch the first two which I thought was a bit pointless.