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Terminator Thread — Page 5

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T3 was really just an attempt to milk more money out of the franchise. Cameron refused to do it because in his view, he had already completed the story. I agree with this, as T3 completely messes with the timeline and changes the theme of the first two, as noted above.

The only reason Arnold did it was because Cameron told him to ask for a "Shitload of money" (picked this up somewhere, don't know if it necessarily is true or not).

It's not a bad movie, it just seemed kind of unncessary.

EDIT: Found the actual quote... it's “If they come up with a decent script that you like and you think you can play, do something cool, and they pay you an awful lot of money, you should just go do it. Don’t feel like you’re betraying me or anything else.”

Gentlemen, you can’t fight in here, this is the war room!

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Originally posted by: bad_karma24
T3 was really just an attempt to milk more money out of the franchise. Cameron refused to do it because in his view, he had already completed the story. I agree with this, as T3 completely messes with the timeline and changes the theme of the first two, as noted above.

The only reason Arnold did it was because Cameron told him to ask for a "Shitload of money" (picked this up somewhere, don't know if it necessarily is true or not).

It's not a bad movie, it just seemed kind of unncessary.


By that logic so was Terminator 2. The first Termintor could have easily excisted without any sequal.
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Originally posted by: jimbo

By that logic so was Terminator 2. The first Termintor could have easily excisted without any sequal.


That's certainly a true statement, I will not argue with you on that. But T2, unlike T3, supported and built upon what had come before rather than ignoring and destroying dates, themes, personality, mood and style of it's predecessor.

T2 exists alongside T1 in a way that T3 didn't even try to.

And therefore it is an inferior product.

It got the job done for a lot of people, like you obviously, but it is not the work of a master craftsman and will not be fondly remembered/studied in years to come. T2 is very much a sequel made to take advantage of current technological advancement in CGI effects and to appease the sequel hungry fanbase and Schwarzenegger's personal ego but it is also a modern classic.

T3 is nothing more than a soulless summer blockbuster, cynically designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator, to reap more than was sewn, by sewing very little and marketed to high disposable income teens and 'tweens' who weren't even alive when T1 was in the cinemas.

Plus Arnie got his Cameron approved $30 Million dollar payday and the most free and legal political campaign advertising anyone has ever seen.
"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Goering.

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." - Goebbels.

"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - Orwell.
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Originally posted by: jimbo
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Originally posted by: bad_karma24
T3 was really just an attempt to milk more money out of the franchise. Cameron refused to do it because in his view, he had already completed the story. I agree with this, as T3 completely messes with the timeline and changes the theme of the first two, as noted above.

The only reason Arnold did it was because Cameron told him to ask for a "Shitload of money" (picked this up somewhere, don't know if it necessarily is true or not).

It's not a bad movie, it just seemed kind of unncessary.


By that logic so was Terminator 2. The first Termintor could have easily excisted without any sequal.


Not in Cameron's view.

Gentlemen, you can’t fight in here, this is the war room!

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Originally posted by: bad_karma24

By that logic so was Terminator 2. The first Termintor could have easily excisted without any sequal.


Not in Cameron's view.


If we are talking about Camerons view then you have to like Terminator 3 since JIM CAMERON LIKES TERMINATOR 3. He didn't make it but believes Mostow did a good job with it.
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Originally posted by: jimbo
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Originally posted by: bad_karma24

By that logic so was Terminator 2. The first Termintor could have easily excisted without any sequal.


Not in Cameron's view.


If we are talking about Camerons view then you have to like Terminator 3 since JIM CAMERON LIKES TERMINATOR 3. He didn't make it but believes Mostow did a good job with it.


That doesn't make it a masterpiece. Lucas likes the new Star Wars movies but that doesn't make them good, now does it? The fact that someone likes a movie, despite their position doesn't make it a good or bad movie.

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First of all Attack of the Clones is my favorite movie. I was just saying that you were useing Cameron to put down Terminator 3 I was simply puting down your agruement. If he likes the movie then oviously he doesn't believe his franchise is being ruined. He stated in the same interview he hates Alien 3. So he believes his franchises have been ruined before but Terminator 3 didn't.
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Originally posted by: jimbo
First of all Attack of the Clones is my favorite movie.


Yes... we know... you're also in the minority but whatever.

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I was just saying that you were useing Cameron to put down Terminator 3 I was simply puting down your agruement. If he likes the movie then oviously he doesn't believe his franchise is being ruined.


Whether or not Cameron likes T3 or that he believes his franchise is being ruined is not the issue. The fact is that he had already completed his version of the series. The third one was more of a spin off. In his words, T3 was "a film for the sake of the commerce." I don't know if you've posted it already, but do you have a link to the interview where he said he liked T3?

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He stated in the same interview he hates Alien 3. So he believes his franchises have been ruined before but Terminator 3 didn't.


Where do you get off saying the Alien series is Cameron's franchise?

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The thing about the Terminator franchise is that I always saw it as a giant loop. Beginning with the first movie and ending with John sending Kyle through time. Terminator 3 does diviate from the timeline a bit but I don't think they had a choice with the long time period Cameron waited. Really Terminator 3 showed a willingness to continue and evolve the series while Terminator 2 tryed to half ass end it.
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like they said dude. do you have a link to this so called interview where cameron said that he liked t3 but hated Alien3. BTW, the Alien franchise was never any one persons franchise. It was just Fox's franchise. And jimbo, we all know that you liked t3 and attack of the clones. Realistically, they are all cheese and fall short on alot of counts. That includes the original Star Wars trilogy. T1-T3 and all the Alien movies. They all fall short because they were done by human beings who are prone to making mistakes. When it comes to the arts, it really is about taste and keep in mind, one's taste can change over time. However, they don't change through debate. I've found this alot in my life where people get this misconception that they can change someone's mind through debate. it doesn't work that way. You can't make people believe some of the things you believe. Only they and God can change themselves and God won't do it unless the person gives Him permission to. so all this argument and debate is simply a waste of time!
"Who's scruffy-lookin'?" - Han Solo
"I wish my lawn was emo so it would cut itself." -sybeman
"You know, putting animals in the microwave is not a good idea. I had to learn that one the hard way." -seanwookie
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er... cheesey (spell much?)
"Who's scruffy-lookin'?" - Han Solo
"I wish my lawn was emo so it would cut itself." -sybeman
"You know, putting animals in the microwave is not a good idea. I had to learn that one the hard way." -seanwookie
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i agree with Switch...
no matter how much we or jimbo try to talk eachother into believing what version is better...
its not going to work...

i'm happy with ending this one right here...
lol
"Never. I'll never turn to the darkside. You've failed your highness. I am a jedi, like my father before me."
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hehehe your right im not...


but you cant teach an old dog new tricks..
"Never. I'll never turn to the darkside. You've failed your highness. I am a jedi, like my father before me."
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While I thought T3 was a pretty good sci-fi/action film on its own, as you guys have covered in detail, it totally destroyed what was set up in T1 and T2.

T4's only hope is to have Cameron return and focus on the Future War. Then everything could be brought full circle, with Skynet sending the T-800 and T-100 back in time, and John counteracting them with Kyle and his T-800. The film would end with John's musings on finally facing that "unknown future" his mother spoke of all those years ago.

(Oh, and T3 could be more or less ignored.)
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T4 would rock if it was a Terminator version of Aliens by Cameron. action film, set in the future, with shitloads of T-800's in skeletal form.
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."
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i totally agree!!!
thats what i thought T3 was gonna be... they showed a lot of the future scenes during the teaser and think of the name...
rise of the machines... but then i was dissappointed that it took place during present day...
"Never. I'll never turn to the darkside. You've failed your highness. I am a jedi, like my father before me."
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Originally posted by: Luke Skywalker
i totally agree!!!
thats what i thought T3 was gonna be... they showed a lot of the future scenes during the teaser and think of the name...
rise of the machines... but then i was dissappointed that it took place during present day...


What about Terminator 2s title. Why the hell is it called Terminator 2 Judgement Day if Judgement Day happens in Terminator 3? Who titles these things.
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i think Cameron does....
but see T2 was about judgement day... they were trying to prevent it...
"Never. I'll never turn to the darkside. You've failed your highness. I am a jedi, like my father before me."
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Originally posted by: Luke Skywalker
i think Cameron does....
but see T2 was about judgement day... they were trying to prevent it...


And failed miserably
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only when T3 was made..
so technically T3 messed up.
"Never. I'll never turn to the darkside. You've failed your highness. I am a jedi, like my father before me."
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Originally posted by: Luke Skywalker
only when T3 was made..
so technically T3 messed up.


The idea of Judgement Day being stoped is fucked up. The first movie showed that the future is set and unchangable.
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Originally posted by: jimbo
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Originally posted by: Luke Skywalker
only when T3 was made..
so technically T3 messed up.


The idea of Judgement Day being stoped is fucked up. The first movie showed that the future is set and unchangable.


You kind of missed the point of the first two... Cameron was saying you could change the future.

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Originally posted by: bad_karma24<br
The idea of Judgement Day being stoped is fucked up. The first movie showed that the future is set and unchangable.


You kind of missed the point of the first two... Cameron was saying you could change the future.


In Terminator 2 he might have. In Terminator 1 there is no doubt that it shows an unchangable future. Look at how John Connor gets concieved. His father is a man from the future he sends back. If the future could be changed John Connor would not excist. John Connors father was never someone else. He knew Kyle was his father when he sent him back. Also remember Sarahs picture. We see it in the future flashback. It was taken because of Sarah talking about her experiance with Kyle. Also the chip in the lab (which was filmed for the first movie before being deleted). Skynet would not have been invented if Skynet haden't sent the Terminator through time. Remember Dyson saying "It took us in new directions things we would have never" thought of without it. If James Cameron did want to show the future could be changed he did a pretty shitty job at it. This time loop of inevidibility is possibly my favorite aspect of the series.
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Cameron's point was that the future is not written, however 'the future' did not begin until Connor and SkyNet quit screwing around with time travel.

I'm glad he threw away the concept of the bright and happy changed future as it, and T3 does this, destroyed the idea of the causal loop which was started when Terminator and Kyle showed up in 1984 and ended in 2029 with them being sent back. The same loop applies to the T-1000 and T-800 of T2 their actions in the past cause the events which have always taken place in that time because they were sent back from the future.

There is no fate but that which we make for ourselves refers to the fated events that must take place before the unwritten future can arrive.

When T3 rolled around Judgement Day had been moved from 1997 to 2004 for reasons of convenience, thus the causal loop was abandoned by mediocre screenwriters with no concept of the physics and philosophy of time travel and a director who cared more about the explosions than the subtext. And so we have a film where people who will be important actually get wiped out which results in a time paradox where the next time the future arrives those people will not be important enough to warrant a T-X beingh sent back to kill them and so they will not be killed and so they will grow to become important and so a T-X will have to go back to kill them and so forth.

A constantly changing future is an acceptable theorem of the effects of time travel but not when the rules of the Terminator universe had already established an unchanging future, as you Jimbo have pointed out. I talked more about this on page 5 of this thread.

Then we have the whole matter of Sarah dying of Leukemia just because they couldn't get Linda Hamilton back, lame and nasty.

T3 is a passable action film which, even without its connection to the Terminator saga would still have too many plot holes thanks to cut-throat editing.

If you like explosions, oneliners, a Leslie Nielsen Terminator and butch looking women then T3 is for you.

If you have a heart and mind and the ability to wrap your head around an oroborus plot where there is no beginning or end then James Cameron's Terminator duet is for you.
"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Goering.

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." - Goebbels.

"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - Orwell.