CP3S said:
Warbler said:
CP3S said:
Warbler said:
so 6 million jews were not murdered in Germany? I am pretty sure the Holocaust was legal in Germany at the time. Just because murder is legal, doesn't mean it isn't murder.
Well, technically no, I suppose. "Executed" among other words, would be more accurate.
that is just crazy and offensive. They were MURDERED. I don't know how you can argue that murder is only murder, when it is against the law.
Offensive? Seriously? How is that offensive?
it offensive to the jews to say the Holocaust wasn't murder.
CP3S said:
I can argue that because that is how my dictionary (and yours, I reassure you) defines it.
please read the post from twister11
CP3S said:
CP3S said:
CP3S said:
Allowing things like murder and rape to go without punishment or consequences would create anarchy.
it would also be morally wrong and would allow people to violate peoples' right to live and not be raped
Yeah, pretty much what I was saying.
I don't think it was. You made it sound like we should only care about these things, rape and murder, when it effects us.
Nope. I had a whole spiel about society not being able to function like that and that we need laws that discourage behavior such as rape and murder.
yeah, so basically we should only care about murder and rape when it affect us or society. If it affects neither, we should not "get panties all tangled up". You argued that we shouldn't care about the unborn baby because its death neither effect society or us.
CP3S said:
CP3S said:
CP3S said:
Again, what does some aborted fetus that you never even knew existed do to harm you or society or anyone else in this country other than the two people who conceived it? Again, nada. All those abortion that took place this very day, this week, and the past month, they had nothing to do with you and they didn't harm you. They don't effect your life in anyway.
they don't, but I care anyway. I care about human life. I care about the right of a human to live. Just like I care about all the death happening over in the middle east and other places. I can't believe you'd actually try to argue that I shouldn't care about human life being snuffed out, as long as it doesn't effect me.
I'm not arguing that at all.
sure sounded like it.
I never made any kind of argument that said you shouldn't care about people dying if it doesn't effect you. Nothing even close to it.
if you say so.
CP3S said:
CP3S said:
But when it comes to abortion, something deemed legal and socially acceptable by the supreme court and the powers that be, I think it is silly to get your panties all tangled up simply because your neighbors are doing something you personally find morally wrong.
so it is silly to "get your panties all tangled up", when you see people committing murder, simply because the murder is deemed legal and socially acceptable?
I mentioned the supreme court, because you seem to hold them in very high regard And they are Federal government, which is something else you also seem to hold in incredibly high regard.
I recognize that there ruling makes abortion legal, for now. But I am not force to think that there decision was the right one.
CP3S said:
And murder is deemed illegal and socially unacceptable.
not always.
CP3S said:
So all the abolitionists were silly to be so upset about slavery, because slavery was deemed legal and socially acceptable?
That has zero relation to this topic.
no, it has everything to do with this topic. You say I am silly to get upset about something that doesn't affect me. Slavery did not affect the abolitionists. They were not forced to work on south plantations at the threat of the whip. Yet they were not silly, because they were concerned about something horrible happening to people. Likewise, I am also not silly to be concerned about something horrible happening to a group of living things, I consider to be people.
CP3S said:
Though I always have found it amusing that no matter what we are discussing, racism and/or slavery inevitable make their way into your side of the conversation.
all I can tell you is that I honestly thought it made sense to bring it up here. I bet many people in the south thought the abolitionists were silly.
CP3S said:
Throughout history, there are many instances of horrible, evil things done, that at the time were deemed legal and socially acceptable. Yet, I don't think was silly to think that those things were evil and that they should be stopped.
I absolutely agree.
then please stop calling me silly for being pro-life. You notice, I've never called you silly for being pro-choice.
CP3S said:
CP3S said:
This moralistic thinking is also what leads to racism and homophobia. According to the Bible homosexuality is wrong, right? So would you be quite bothered if your male next door neighbor spent his weekend lovingly sodomizing another dude? I don't think you would, because you feel gay people should be treated the same as anyone else and what they do as consenting adults in their lives doesn't affect us.
it is more than just that their lives don;t affect us, allowing them to live there lives the way they want, doesn't violate anyone's rights. I can not say the same for abortion, I believe it violates the right to life of the unborn child.
I don't feel like a growing cluster of cells or a non viable fetus has the rights a person has, nor do I think it's rights should be elevated above the mother's (whose body it is occupying and dependent on) right to chose not to have it.
and there we have crutch of the disagreement. I believe it should have the rights of a person(at least partially), you believe it shouldn't. As for putting it above the mother's right to chose not to have it, I feel you have to put the right to life over the right to avoid being pregnant for 9 months. Ask any woman if she'd rather die or be pregnant for nine months, I would be willing to bet most women would choose to be pregnant for nine months(unless we are talking about a pregnancy via rape)
CP3S said:
CP3S said:
The bottom line is, it isn't your body that has this parasitic early stage of human life growing inside of you. In fact, it is something you will never have to experience, or fear the potential of experiencing when you are not ready for it. It doesn't affect you, and it is only your personal morals (thus not shared by everyone, not even everyone in your own country) that are condemning it.
true, it doesn't affect me, but it does affect the unborn child. Forcing black people to sit in the back of the bus would not affect me, but I am against that too. I see nothing wrong with fighting for the rights of others, in the case, it is the rights of the unborn child that I fight for.
And at the same time against the rights of the mother (whose lives are severely affected). Damned if you do, damned if you don't, eh.
I say you are more damned if you force the unborn child to die, rather than force the woman to be pregnant for nine months.
CP3S said:
CP3S said:
Have you forgotten that the right to live was called an inalienable right by the Declaration of Independence? According to that document, the right to live comes not from any law, but from nature.
Show me where that applies to potential people?
1. show me where it doesn't
2. is the unborn child just a potential person? Just exactly when does it become a person?
Not when it is just a shapeless mass growing inside somebody elses body.
even though it has its own unique DND, and even though you have admitted it is a living human?
CP3S said:
CP3S said:
Should we extend it to sperm cells, as potential potentials?
no, because sperm cell alone is not a human life, human life is the combination of the sperm and the egg cell.
So once these two come into contact, sperm and ovum, we now have a human life that should be protected inalienably as per the Declaration of Independence?
I guess. it is certainly something quite different from just a sperm/ege cell itself.
CP3S said:
CP3S said:
I think you are kind of stretching by claiming the Declaration of Independence's "unalienable right to life" pertains to abortion.
am I? I am pretty sure that many of the founding fathers would be pro-life.
Maybe. But you also think many of them would be anti-gun. (lol, the guys that started a violent rebellion against their ruing government because they were tired of paying taxes.)
Who can really say how they would have felt about it.
again, I am no more stretch the declaration of independence when it comes to abortion, than you are when it comes to uzies and the 2nd amendment.
CP3S said:
As for the situation of the mother's life being in danger, please remember that the mother also has the inalienable right to life.
So then whose right do we alienate? What makes her right less alienable than her unborn child's? If they are both inalienable, then we have an issue. There is the iceberg tip of the before mentioned sticky
I don't know how you decide which one to is to die and which to live. Maybe in that case, you live it up to the family to decide.
CP3S said:
CP3S said:
Now we are back to a convenience thing (and I probably just reoffended Frink),
yeah, why'd you do that?
What? Should I not mention things if people find them offensive?
have you ever heard the old saying "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all"? have you ever heard of the golden rule, "do unto others how you would have them do unto you"?
CP3S said:
I find obsession with sports offensive, could we please not ever mention them again?
it is silly to be offended by obsession with sports. In addition, I think just because people talk and are interested in sports, does not mean they are obsessed by them.
and you do realize there is a BIG difference between you getting upset about the mere discussion of sports, and kind of discussion that can upset Frink and why it upsets him, right?
CP3S said:
Religious people will suddenly grant that it is okay to abort a baby in the instance of rape, even though they'll adamantly argue it is murder in other instances, simply because it would be inconvenient to say that you're murdering the baby when the pregnancy was caused by rape.
I can't answer for all religious people, all I can do is answer for me. And again, I don't have answer for the situation of pregnancy via rape. I don't want the unborn child killed, but it also seems beyond cruel to force a raped woman to carry the child to term. I think this will be the last time I talk about this for a while. I feel as if I've repeated myself on this a thousand times already.
CP3S said:
Also, religious authorities have traditionally really enjoyed the fact that the sin of sex comes with undesirable consequences, and have a history of strongly condemning interventions that allow people to commit the act with having to risk suffering the consequences.
Condoms greatly reduce the risk of STIs and pregnancy, so they are bad. Medical interventions can cleanly remove an accidental conception. Suddenly the consequences of sex are much more minimal, so those things must be labeled as bad and made as hard or as difficult to get as possible.
that sure as shit isn't my thinking when comes to sex and abortion.
CP3S said:
I'm not forcing any morality on anyone. If you don't feel right about abortion, then I strongly encourage you not to get an abortion.
and if you don't feeling right about 6 million Jews being murdered, don't murder 6 million Jews?
Why does everything go back to Jew and black people?
again, I honestly felt like it fit. Since all you could respond with, was this question, I guess it worked.
CP3S said:
CP3S said:
The unborn child, I suppose has to be at the mercy of those who conceived him.
sometimes, parents can be very uncaring. I think we owe the unborn, better than that.
Why do we owe them anything?
wow, I am not even going to respond to this ignorant comment.
CP3S said:
CP3S said:
CP3S said:
You think abortion is wrong, and therefore you don't want anybody to be able to do it...
yes, just like I don't want anyone to murder 6 million jews, even if it is legal in the country where it would happen.
I truly hope you see that there is a very massive difference between those two things you are comparing.
of course they are different. But both are still murder in my mind.
Soooo, does that make Obama, a strongly pro-choice President, a bit like Adolf Hitler?
ditto.
CP3S said:
CP3S said:
CP3S said:
CP3S said:
snuffing that out should not be something taken lightly.yet it is, every day.
Do you think that many people are so flippant about it?
yes, unfortunately. Remember you are talking about people who had unprotected sex, at a time in their life when they did not want a child. They already made one irresponsible decision, is it so much a stretch that they'd make another?
How do you know they had unprotected sex? I've had condoms break on me before. I'm sure everyone that uses them has had that happen at least once. Hormone birth control is really reliable, but it still have a failure rate.
I suppose I could flip your argument and say that since they are so irresponsible, they really have no business having and raising kids?
you are right, the birth control could have failed, but most of the time when you are talking about unwanted pregnancy(and its not one via rape) you are talking about a pregnancy via unprotected sex. After all, birth control is supposed to make pregnancy less likely, so it stands to reason the of the unwanted pregnancies that aren't via rape, more are via unprotected sex, rather than protected sex.
CP3S said:
CP3S said:
Of course, it is hard for people to want to listen when they see people trying to take their rights away.
just as it is hard for people to sit by do nothing while they see people committing murder, legal as it may be.
*Sigh*
Murder is NOT legal. And abortion isn't murder.
again, read twister11's post.
CP3S said:
CP3S said:
The Westboro Baptists for example, a lot of people fundamentally agree with their anti-war stance, but still feel like puking every time they hear about what these idiots do to make their points.
I didn't think they had an anti-war stance as much as they had an anti-gay stance.
Wait, am I mixing up my asshole baptist groups? Who are the ones who protest at the funerals of fallen soldiers? I thought that was Westboro.
yeah, they were protested gay soldiers some of the time. and just about all of the time, the have have signs with very offense things about gays.