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Warbler said:
CP3S said:
Warbler said:
so 6 million jews were not murdered in Germany? I am pretty sure the Holocaust was legal in Germany at the time. Just because murder is legal, doesn't mean it isn't murder.
Well, technically no, I suppose. "Executed" among other words, would be more accurate.
that is just crazy and offensive. They were MURDERED. I don't know how you can argue that murder is only murder, when it is against the law.
Offensive? Seriously? How is that offensive? I can argue that because that is how my dictionary (and yours, I reassure you) defines it. It doesn't make what was done to the Jews any less horrific, nor am I trying to make any claim that it is.
I suppose I do, but just what part of your post were you expecting me to "fix"?
Did you even read my post? I'm just going to quote the whole section below:
What does it hurt you, living in New Jersey, if some woman in California decides to terminate her pregnancy? The answer: not at all whatsoever. You are entirely unaffected, 100%.
I imagine you'll probably compare it to murder again, saying something along the lines of, "What does it hurt you, living in wherever you live, if a woman in California is raped and murdered by some thug? The answer: not at all whatsoever. You are entirely unaffected, 100%." Then you'd probably write something like "Fixed!" under it.
Then I found it really funny that Ender went and did just that:
If someone were to kill you, living in Tennessee (is that right?), what would it affect me, living in AZ? I'd wonder why you never came around the site, but I wouldn't shed a single tear for your passing. I wouldn't even know.
CP3S said:
CP3S said:
Allowing things like murder and rape to go without punishment or consequences would create anarchy.
it would also be morally wrong and would allow people to violate peoples' right to live and not be raped
Yeah, pretty much what I was saying.
I don't think it was. You made it sound like we should only care about these things, rape and murder, when it effects us.
Nope. I had a whole spiel about society not being able to function like that and that we need laws that discourage behavior such as rape and murder.
CP3S said:
CP3S said:
Again, what does some aborted fetus that you never even knew existed do to harm you or society or anyone else in this country other than the two people who conceived it? Again, nada. All those abortion that took place this very day, this week, and the past month, they had nothing to do with you and they didn't harm you. They don't effect your life in anyway.
they don't, but I care anyway. I care about human life. I care about the right of a human to live. Just like I care about all the death happening over in the middle east and other places. I can't believe you'd actually try to argue that I shouldn't care about human life being snuffed out, as long as it doesn't effect me.
I'm not arguing that at all.
sure sounded like it.
I never made any kind of argument that said you shouldn't care about people dying if it doesn't effect you. Nothing even close to it.
CP3S said:
But when it comes to abortion, something deemed legal and socially acceptable by the supreme court and the powers that be, I think it is silly to get your panties all tangled up simply because your neighbors are doing something you personally find morally wrong.
so it is silly to "get your panties all tangled up", when you see people committing murder, simply because the murder is deemed legal and socially acceptable?
I mentioned the supreme court, because you seem to hold them in very high regard And they are Federal government, which is something else you also seem to hold in incredibly high regard.
And murder is deemed illegal and socially unacceptable.
So all the abolitionists were silly to be so upset about slavery, because slavery was deemed legal and socially acceptable?
That has zero relation to this topic. Though I always have found it amusing that no matter what we are discussing, racism and/or slavery inevitable make their way into your side of the conversation.
Throughout history, there are many instances of horrible, evil things done, that at the time were deemed legal and socially acceptable. Yet, I don't think was silly to think that those things were evil and that they should be stopped.
I absolutely agree.
CP3S said:
This moralistic thinking is also what leads to racism and homophobia. According to the Bible homosexuality is wrong, right? So would you be quite bothered if your male next door neighbor spent his weekend lovingly sodomizing another dude? I don't think you would, because you feel gay people should be treated the same as anyone else and what they do as consenting adults in their lives doesn't affect us.
it is more than just that their lives don;t affect us, allowing them to live there lives the way they want, doesn't violate anyone's rights. I can not say the same for abortion, I believe it violates the right to life of the unborn child.
I don't feel like a growing cluster of cells or a non viable fetus has the rights a person has, nor do I think it's rights should be elevated above the mother's (whose body it is occupying and dependent on) right to chose not to have it.
CP3S said:
The bottom line is, it isn't your body that has this parasitic early stage of human life growing inside of you. In fact, it is something you will never have to experience, or fear the potential of experiencing when you are not ready for it. It doesn't affect you, and it is only your personal morals (thus not shared by everyone, not even everyone in your own country) that are condemning it.
true, it doesn't affect me, but it does affect the unborn child. Forcing black people to sit in the back of the bus would not affect me, but I am against that too. I see nothing wrong with fighting for the rights of others, in the case, it is the rights of the unborn child that I fight for.
And at the same time against the rights of the mother (whose lives are severely affected). Damned if you do, damned if you don't, eh.
CP3S said:
Have you forgotten that the right to live was called an inalienable right by the Declaration of Independence? According to that document, the right to live comes not from any law, but from nature.
Show me where that applies to potential people?
1. show me where it doesn't
2. is the unborn child just a potential person? Just exactly when does it become a person?
Not when it is just a shapeless mass growing inside somebody elses body.
CP3S said:
Should we extend it to sperm cells, as potential potentials?
no, because sperm cell alone is not a human life, human life is the combination of the sperm and the egg cell.
So once these two come into contact, sperm and ovum, we now have a human life that should be protected inalienably as per the Declaration of Independence?
CP3S said:
I think you are kind of stretching by claiming the Declaration of Independence's "unalienable right to life" pertains to abortion.
am I? I am pretty sure that many of the founding fathers would be pro-life.
Maybe. But you also think many of them would be anti-gun. (lol, the guys that started a violent rebellion against their ruing government because they were tired of paying taxes.)
Who can really say how they would have felt about it.
As for the situation of the mother's life being in danger, please remember that the mother also has the inalienable right to life.
So then whose right do we alienate? What makes her right less alienable than her unborn child's? If they are both inalienable, then we have an issue. There is the iceberg tip of the before mentioned sticky
CP3S said:
Now we are back to a convenience thing (and I probably just reoffended Frink),
yeah, why'd you do that?
What? Should I not mention things if people find them offensive? I find obsession with sports offensive, could we please not ever mention them again?
I don't want to offend him by it, but I feel it is very clearly true. Religious people will suddenly grant that it is okay to abort a baby in the instance of rape, even though they'll adamantly argue it is murder in other instances, simply because it would be inconvenient to say that you're murdering the baby when the pregnancy was caused by rape. Also, religious authorities have traditionally really enjoyed the fact that the sin of sex comes with undesirable consequences, and have a history of strongly condemning interventions that allow people to commit the act with having to risk suffering the consequences.
Condoms greatly reduce the risk of STIs and pregnancy, so they are bad. Medical interventions can cleanly remove an accidental conception. Suddenly the consequences of sex are much more minimal, so those things must be labeled as bad and made as hard or as difficult to get as possible.
I'm not forcing any morality on anyone. If you don't feel right about abortion, then I strongly encourage you not to get an abortion.
and if you don't feeling right about 6 million Jews being murdered, don't murder 6 million Jews?
Why does everything go back to Jew and black people?
CP3S said:
The unborn child, I suppose has to be at the mercy of those who conceived him.
sometimes, parents can be very uncaring. I think we owe the unborn, better than that.
Why do we owe them anything?
CP3S said:
CP3S said:
You think abortion is wrong, and therefore you don't want anybody to be able to do it...
yes, just like I don't want anyone to murder 6 million jews, even if it is legal in the country where it would happen.
I truly hope you see that there is a very massive difference between those two things you are comparing.
of course they are different. But both are still murder in my mind.
Soooo, does that make Obama, a strongly pro-choice President, a bit like Adolf Hitler?
CP3S said:
CP3S said:
CP3S said:
snuffing that out should not be something taken lightly.yet it is, every day.
Do you think that many people are so flippant about it?
yes, unfortunately. Remember you are talking about people who had unprotected sex, at a time in their life when they did not want a child. They already made one irresponsible decision, is it so much a stretch that they'd make another?
How do you know they had unprotected sex? I've had condoms break on me before. I'm sure everyone that uses them has had that happen at least once. Hormone birth control is really reliable, but it still have a failure rate.
I suppose I could flip your argument and say that since they are so irresponsible, they really have no business having and raising kids?
CP3S said:
Of course, it is hard for people to want to listen when they see people trying to take their rights away.
just as it is hard for people to sit by do nothing while they see people committing murder, legal as it may be.
*Sigh*
Murder is NOT legal. And abortion isn't murder.
CP3S said:
The Westboro Baptists for example, a lot of people fundamentally agree with their anti-war stance, but still feel like puking every time they hear about what these idiots do to make their points.
I didn't think they had an anti-war stance as much as they had an anti-gay stance.
Wait, am I mixing up my asshole baptist groups? Who are the ones who protest at the funerals of fallen soldiers? I thought that was Westboro.
