darth_ender said:
walkingdork said:
I think abortion is generally a bad idea and if you can avoid it you should. But no part of me thinks it's murder or that an incomplete zygote has any rights. That's how I can come to the conclusion that if you are raped or incest is involved you should be allowed to have an abortion.
In response to the underlined sentence, since a zygote lasts for 4 days (not sure what an incomplete zygote is, but a complete one), is abortion not permitted afterwards? I understand, I'm playing a bit with semantics here, and I suspect you are referring more to a "bunch of cells," not a formed creature with all the emotions and sensations of a more developed person.
Yeah, whatever, fetus, fine. They are incomplete people.
But still, it's worth considering. At what point do we consider a genetically distinct human worth having human rights?
Birth!
I would prefer to err on the side of caution as much as possible. BTW, I appreciate your first sentence in this paragraph very much (italicized). Even if the country never came round to my way of thinking, I'd be so happy if it at least came around to yours. But the sad truth is that abortions today are simply another form of contraception to far too many.
and I don't think people should use abortion as a wily nily form of abortion either, but I'm not about to tell how to make that choice. I'm definitely against any law that makes that decision for women.
If I believed that abortion was, without a doubt, murder then there would be no excuse for it. After all, I would never let my children be killed so that I could live. But if the pregnant mother of my potential child was in mortal danger I'd want to have an abortion...and I would not consider it murder.
This is a good point. And I admit I don't liken it exactly to murder. However, I suppose this is more because I don't think most feel they are committing murder, so I'd see them as ignorant killers rather than murderers. But again comparing to my conjoined twins comparison above, sometimes a choice must be made. I'd side with the mother for various reasons: 1) if she dies, the child will die anyway in most cases, unless we're getting later down the road; 2) the needs of other family members are in consideration here as well, considering the death of the mother will probably be much harder on the family than the death of the child; 3) many who say they'd take a bullet for their kids might actually be unable to do so when the time came--and I wouldn't necessarily fault them for it--they may have not had the willpower, but that doesn't mean they didn't love their child unconditionally; 4) the suffering of the mother will be far more than that of the child, and for that reason, when choosing between two lives, I'd choose the one with the more peaceful death.
I think you and I have probably talked about this to death so I won't comment further. My statement was address to warbler because I don't think I've heard his response that my thinking (although I believe several have brought it up already).
I wouldn't consider it murder either. I'd consider it the right choice in difficult circumstances. But I don't consider killing born humans always the wrong choice either--there are appropriate times when someone must die. If a killer entered my house with the intent to kill, when it comes down to him or me living, I choose me (sorry Bingo :P). I hope I never have to take another life in any circumstance, but if I have to do it, I'd hope I again make the right choice under difficult circumstances.
Self defense is one thing but what is your feeling about people after the fact? What if you aren't home when someone comes into your house and kills a member of your family? when they convict him/her 6 months later with live in prison without parole would you demand he be put to death?
I probably would I don't have a big problem with capital punishment for 1st degree murder (when there is ZERO chance he is innocent). Although when I hear cases of the victim's family demanding that capital punishment not be used I think they should have the right to be heard.
Thank you for the very thoughtful post expressing the opposite POV. :)
Up yours pal. ;)