Yeah but that doesn't make one 'right' and the other one 'wrong'.
I like a bit of variety but as the official version of ROTS is currently the only theatrical version of a Star Wars film on blu-ray and probably showing once in a while unchanged in a threatre somewhere, if you have a good idea how to change it, go for it.
It's not like you are going out of your way to prevent the theatrical release being purchased and seen by making a special edition now is it?
Bingowings said:
his is another bag I have about some people who lambast the PT (not saying it doesn't deserve it mind).
Lots of the shots that people pick out as fake look CGI are largely physical models with some CGI elements in them.
Some of that goes down to the extreme cartoonish nature of some of those CGI elements that make the whole show look like a Playstation cut scene.
That's more a design thing than a technical thing.
Even when you have an interesting design (like the basic battledroids) they look delicate, diminutive and plastic which is where Lucas seems to want to go with them story wise but them renders them not menacing (ironically seeing as they debut in TPM) and reduces the emotional impact they can leave.
Early drawings had the same design scaled up so they were 8ft tall with a brushed steel look.
They were based on the Epstein's Rock Drill which looks much more menacing and solid :
To some extent the PT needs it's ethos rejigged much more than it needs it's CGI replaced.
It's really unfortunate that George made those Battledroids so comedic and stupid. It takes everything away from how dangerous they really could be. It's like as if he borrowed from the Daleks voice-wise too. At least they were menacing and they even scared my Dad as a kid too lol! Heck even while the Super Battledroids may be more dangerous they still look goofy. And those Commando Droids on The Clone Wars may still come close but again, no cigar!! If anything the voices should probably be removed altogether. And I hate to admit it but the Battledroids talking on TCW does crack me up, though it should never really have happened in the first place!! :p
To date I must say the T-800 Terminator machines of the future are still the most intimidating machines next to the T-1000 perhaps. What else comes close?
“Did you know, the word ‘gullible’ is not in the dictionary?! Look it up.”
If the battledroids sounded like the Daleks they would be a lot more successful.
Instead they sound like Number 5 from Short Circuit crossed with a Jawa.
I do recall Ady mentioning that he intends on altering Hayden's voice for PT:R. He may as well create something new for the Battledroids too perhaps.
“Did you know, the word ‘gullible’ is not in the dictionary?! Look it up.”
If I'm not mistaken he has said that the droids will be re-dubbed.....not sure if still in English, or if it will be a droid language with subtitles....(or no subtitles)
As a kid I was terrified by the skeleton army in Jason and Argonauts.
If the normal droids just made skeletal clicking motion noises until called into battle where they would emit an electronic screech (maybe with their eyes lit up), that could be used to good effect.
The ED209s from Robocop made animal noises which made them quite disturbing.
Maybe the larger droids could have a particular signature noise to their guns that sounds more booming than the usual laser blast.
.
Preferred Saga:
1,2: Numeraljoker extended
3: L8wrtr
4,6-9: Hal9000
5: Adywan
I actually really like the coloring of the droid in that model. That would be A LOT of work to recolor them all that way, but I think it would have a lot of impact. Menacing red eyes would top that off nicely as well.
Something else to consider is the fact that TPM misuses nature when setting tones. Why does the droid battle/break into the capitol all happen on a beautiful sunny day? Where are the ominous clouds? The distant roar of thunder?
I understand that it's not needed... but in the OT, every environment (with the exception of Endor) really helped set the tone. Endor could've used a lot more shadows and a clostrophobic, wandering aimlessly in the woods type feel.
Preferred Saga:
1,2: Numeraljoker extended
3: L8wrtr
4,6-9: Hal9000
5: Adywan
I'd have replaced the vulture droids with fighter craft flown by droids.
In science fiction it makes sense to have robots that are ships but this isn't a science fiction series.
Besides the droids ride tanks, boats and pilot huge capital ships with hardly any organic beings on board so the notion of them being fighter craft is inconsistent.
Sorry to go back to the previous discussion about how to preserve the Vader being Anakin surprise but I just wanted to add my idea here. If the duel between Anakin and Obi Wan could be editted so that the two characters both appeared dark, so there is very little distinguishing them in the distant shots. And then one of their lightsaber blades could be changed to red, so that is our way to tell them apart. Much like in this artwork:
Then I think by removing all of the close up shots of the actors faces, and adding a few shots of a solitary Obi Wan, it could possibly be made to look like Obi Wan is viewing the fight from a distance.
If the idea of Obi Wan's second apprentice were used I think it could be made to look like Anakin and that apprentice are fighting. The apprentice would be shown to use a red bladed lightsaber, and Obi Wan, unable to reach the two in time would just see one figure holding a red bladed saber standing above the other person, who would be holding on to a ledge or something, before being pushed off. The murderer would then walk away. Obi Wan would later reach the place the person fell and retrieve Anakin's lightsaber from the ground.
As long as the second character was generally the same size and had similar hair and outfit to Anakin, just so they weren't identifiable from a distance, I think it could be enough to sell the lie.
Also we know Ady wants to include newly filmed footage, and I think the existing duel has enough elements that it would only take a few new shots to tell a version like this. For example a shot of the new character, and then one of them walking away from the ledge and picking up a cloak or something as they walk away, add in a few new lines from both characters and it would be a new scene with relatively little effort.
Yeah but if Anakin isn't referred to as Skywalker you don't have to do anything to the footage.
In the OT we aren't on first name terms with Luke's father until the last episode.
I guess so, I just think it could be cool :)
The opening shot of ROTS just doesn't work. It's just a showy piece which, for me , sums up the prequels ; all flash and no substance. But the fact that the battle just appears out of nowhere, when we would have been able to see it due to the angle of the opening, just helps the opening to fail. It's not even as if it is a reveal that was out of camera frame, because it SHOULD be there from the moment the camera pans down and we see the ship. It's just a mess.
It's a stylist decision the view is blocked for dramatic effect.
It's a decision you don't agree with and one I've never really formed a significant position on but it's not in any way a major problem with the film.
Not like the buzz droids or the comedy voices of the vultures or Anakin riffing Han for no discernible reason.
As I say the original exists and will for some years so run with your particular take.
I for one really can't wait to see what you do with it but I remember really enjoying that opening sequence as it is only to have it spoiled by the other elements I mentioned.
ROTJ on the other hand has the second worse opening of a Star Wars film IMHO.
TPM has the worse but ROTJ with it's truncated slow repeat of the opening to ANH with the Death Star framed in such a way as to make it look as tiny and unthreatening as possible is cock up personified.
Bingowings said:
It's a stylist decision the view is blocked for dramatic effect.
It's a decision you don't agree with and one I've never really formed a significant position on but it's not in any way a major problem with the film.
A film where someone is being chased by a helicopter....we, nor the main character (who is existing in the same space as said helicopter) don't see it, or hear it, and then it suddenly comes flying into frame along with the audio suddenly smashing through the speaker.........THAT is a stylistic choice.
A long (distant) shot showing nothing, followed by a close up shot of the same space which is now inhabited by something large (a space battle) that could not have just suddenly arrived.....is a continuity error.
Bingowings said:
It's a stylist decision the view is blocked for dramatic effect.
If they had just have blocked the view of the battle, then i would have had no problem with it , it's the fact that that there is now way i could have been unseen at that angle. All they needed to do was to have the planet almost out of frame and the camera at a different angle and the sequence would have worked.
Bingowings said:
ROTJ on the other hand has the second worse opening of a Star Wars film IMHO.
TPM has the worse but ROTJ with it's truncated slow repeat of the opening to ANH with the Death Star framed in such a way as to make it look as tiny and unthreatening as possible is cock up personified.
well that whole opening sequence is going to be removed and replaced with a new opening for ROTJ:R. Opening the way iot does now almost tells the audience" hey, i ran out of ideas so i'm just going to rehash ANH" and then he does it again with TPM's ending, only this time it's ROTJ; battle in space, battle by the indigenous species and the heroes break into the palace/ bunker and the baddies are tricked by a decoy, all intercut with a lightsaber battle and then the ship goes BOOM.
I'll have to watch it again (of course in the old days I could pop on youtube for a quick refresher) but even if there are continuity issues (nothing new in a Star Wars film, something you are probably more qualified than most to attest to) it does seem that your main objection is to the actual blocking conceit itself rather than any positioning hiccup.
For me the reason why ANH's opening is so iconic is it's pure cinematic storytelling.
From that moment you know the score.
Small Rebellion up against a giant beweaponed evil Empire.
The opening to TPM should be the blockade arriving.
Tiny little defensive planet surrounded by a fleet of greedy feds, like a swarm of giant pac-men going for the innocent blue dot.
Not a tiny little ship representing the Galactic Republic arriving at a large in frame world with lots of ships that mysteriously vanish in the last act.
I would use blocking in Jedi to show the huge bulk of a Star Destroyer dwarfed by the Executor (as in ESB) and then have that dwarfed by the metal tendrils of the unfinished Death Star.
With ROTS Coruscant has always been shown as this safe spot.
Nothing can touch the capital, it's towers always glistening even when there is slavery and villainy and bloodshed.
The general idea of fooling the audience into expecting another safe Coruscant reveal only to have it turn into a chaotic battle was the right thing to do. I would have shown the city itself largely in ruins.
Towers over turned, spires snapped off, Coruscant blitzed.
After getting such a shock I could imagine the Senate turning to Palpatine for easy answers even if it meant the formation of the Empire.
Ady, have you or anyone on your team seen Spence's RotJ edit? I really think he's onto something with how he has the beginning of the film play out. I'd like to see it in action, fully revisited (with the deleted lightsaber scene restored)
Preferred Saga:
1,2: Numeraljoker extended
3: L8wrtr
4,6-9: Hal9000
5: Adywan
I wonder if Jedi's Space Battle should take place outside Coruscant's orbit with the Death Star still under construction. Or would that still be similar to ROTS? Still if the battle took place there maybe the Rebel Forces would be greatly outnumbered.
“Did you know, the word ‘gullible’ is not in the dictionary?! Look it up.”
Bingowings said:
I'll have to watch it again (of course in the old days I could pop on youtube for a quick refresher) but even if there are continuity issues (nothing new in a Star Wars film, something you are probably more qualified than most to attest to) it does seem that your main objection is to the actual blocking conceit itself rather than any positioning hiccup.
For me the reason why ANH's opening is so iconic is it's pure cinematic storytelling.
From that moment you know the score.
Small Rebellion up against a giant beweaponed evil Empire.
The opening to TPM should be the blockade arriving.
Tiny little defensive planet surrounded by a fleet of greedy feds, like a swarm of giant pac-men going for the innocent blue dot.
Not a tiny little ship representing the Galactic Republic arriving at a large in frame world with lots of ships that mysteriously vanish in the last act.
I would use blocking in Jedi to show the huge bulk of a Star Destroyer dwarfed by the Executor (as in ESB) and then have that dwarfed by the metal tendrils of the unfinished Death Star.
With ROTS Coruscant has always been shown as this safe spot.
Nothing can touch the capital, it's towers always glistening even when there is slavery and villainy and bloodshed.
The general idea of fooling the audience into expecting another safe Coruscant reveal only to have it turn into a chaotic battle was the right thing to do. I would have shown the city itself largely in ruins.
Towers over turned, spires snapped off, Coruscant blitzed.
After getting such a shock I could imagine the Senate turning to Palpatine for easy answers even if it meant the formation of the Empire.
Bingowings said:
I'll have to watch it again (of course in the old days I could pop on youtube for a quick refresher) but even if there are continuity issues (nothing new in a Star Wars film, something you are probably more qualified than most to attest to) it does seem that your main objection is to the actual blocking conceit itself rather than any positioning hiccup.
For me the reason why ANH's opening is so iconic is it's pure cinematic storytelling.
From that moment you know the score.
Small Rebellion up against a giant beweaponed evil Empire.
The opening to TPM should be the blockade arriving.
Tiny little defensive planet surrounded by a fleet of greedy feds, like a swarm of giant pac-men going for the innocent blue dot.
Not a tiny little ship representing the Galactic Republic arriving at a large in frame world with lots of ships that mysteriously vanish in the last act.
I would use blocking in Jedi to show the huge bulk of a Star Destroyer dwarfed by the Executor (as in ESB) and then have that dwarfed by the metal tendrils of the unfinished Death Star.
With ROTS Coruscant has always been shown as this safe spot.
Nothing can touch the capital, it's towers always glistening even when there is slavery and villainy and bloodshed.
The general idea of fooling the audience into expecting another safe Coruscant reveal only to have it turn into a chaotic battle was the right thing to do. I would have shown the city itself largely in ruins.
Towers over turned, spires snapped off, Coruscant blitzed.
After getting such a shock I could imagine the Senate turning to Palpatine for easy answers even if it meant the formation of the Empire.
This is an excellent assessment. I thought the reveal of a massive battle going on above coruscant was a fantastic shot and did exactly what was needed. This war is not being fought on some far out 3rd world planet. Its right here and right now. And the reveal being done the way it was really emphasizes that.
Issues with how it was technically done are extremely nitpicky to me. I watched the opening several times just in the last couple of minutes. I don't see any reason why its wrong. Yes, you probably should be able to see some battle stuff going on. In the lower part of the screen below the big ship, but I don't really think you should be able to see anything in the upper portion. The battle we are presented with is considerably lower than the ship that they fly over.
As for sound. This is not at all like the Helicopter not being heard until it pops into the frame. We have a loud score and sound from the two fighters on screen. This is no different than what all films do. The point about Star Wars in general taking liberties with the idea of sound in space is that they haven't set up any rules. It all style in every film. Tie Fighters roar by the camera, but only when they pass the camera. They aren't roaring all the time. It would be all you could hear in the ROTJ space battle. That battle is looks to be 1000s of feet below the camera position in the beginning of the shot. There's simply no reason to think you'd hear all of it.
I was contemplating my wacky labyrinthitis induced dream, mentioned elsewhere, last night and I thought there was a real missed opportunity with the opening of ROTS.
We see this great space battle (most of it is silly I was referring to the scale) and we read that the chancellor has been captured and yet as I said in my previous post the city itself is unharmed.
My wacky dream had an attempt to capture and steal the senate building including the senate.
That is a way too OTT.
But imagine if the region around the senate building was swarming with aircraft fighting and the great buildings were collapsing.
The senate building itself would be taking hits and on the Chancellor's podium a Moff trys to reassure everyone that, "our Jedi heroes will triumph", at which point Padme looks up hopeful (and cut back to the battle).
You could reuse plates of the full senate and the falling pods from the now deleted Palpatine/Yoda fight and add some fresh debris to create a sense of drama.
There is bound to be a shot of Nat looking up in her many films which is reusable and it would give the team a chance to cast someone who actually looks like Tarkin and give him something to do (I'd have him replace blue flappy tongue guy at Palpatine's side through out the last two PT films).
It would also link Padme into the beginning of the film, she always seemed to be dragged along just to hatch the children and die in ROTS.
With the ST now looming, there is the potential for more scenes involving Hayden as Anakin's ghost. Will this effect your decision to restore Sebastian Shaw to the end of RotJ?
Preferred Saga:
1,2: Numeraljoker extended
3: L8wrtr
4,6-9: Hal9000
5: Adywan
Anakin's ghost could be a bit like Bowman in 2001.
He could shift from being little Ani, Hayden, Suited Vader, Seb Shaw and back again.
Its weird territory here. Ultimately the idea of force ghosts gets a little weird if you think to much about it. The only appear for Luke's benefit anyway. You start thinking about Obi-Wan and Yoda and Anakin all sitting around playing cards as ghosts and it gets pretty hokey. Anyway, Its hard for me to imagine we are going to get a lot of Luke in the movies, so I don't think we'll need to get any Vader.
Im sure they're will be some, but I bet we get Yoda and some other Jedi ghost that hasn't been seen before. And possibly Liam Neeson or Ewan McGregor.
McGregor tweeted this morning "Wonder if theyre gonna need some Jedi Hologram action."
