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Complete Comparison of Special Edition Visual Changes — Page 45

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msycamore said:

So we might perhaps start to refer to these versions as the Stereo and Mono versions.

Actually, on a second thought it's probably better to refer to this as an opening day vs. wider release variation, sort of like what happened with Empire that had modifications seen a month into its run when it was time for the 35mm versions. As Dolby Stereo prints have these modifications as well, it only gets confusing. ;)

The most likely scenario on the info we have is:

May '77 - Dolby Stereo prints - containing the rare credit roll and cloudy composite, possibly an early more unstable composite of the opening crawl.

June '77 - Wide release with a third Academy Mono mix for a large number of prints, with the above shortcomings corrected from then on.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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 (Edited)

msycamore said:

msycamore said:

So we might perhaps start to refer to these versions as the Stereo and Mono versions.

Actually, on a second thought it's probably better to refer to this as an opening day vs. wider release variation, sort of like what happened with Empire that had modifications seen a month into its run when it was time for the 35mm versions. As Dolby Stereo prints have these modifications as well, it only gets confusing. ;)

The most likely scenario on the info we have is:

May '77 - Dolby Stereo prints - containing the rare credit roll and cloudy composite, possibly an early more unstable composite of the opening crawl.

June '77 - Wide release with a third Academy Mono mix for a large number of prints, with the above shortcomings corrected from then on.

That sounds plausible. Some comments:

-The IB Tech prints don't have the "shaky" crawl Mike V was talking about. For the 1981 re-release, Fox's UK division took the IB prints in their inventory and spliced on the Episode IV crawl in Eastmancolor. All of the known surviving IB prints have this alteration, so we don't know which opening crawl they originally had. (The fact that the film was released in the UK in December 1977, so it makes sense that it's the "revised version.")

-If the IP used for the 80s video masters was from an older source (see: lack of burn marks, lack of Greedo subs, "cloudy" composite), why does it have the revised credits? Were they spliced in at some point? (I'm guessing the cut point would have been at the final group shot...)

-What happened to the burn-mark free, subtitle-free IP with the "cloudy" takeoff composite? I can think of three possibilities: 1.) It was either too faded or too damaged to use again in '93; 2.) It was misplaced; or 3.) It was sent to Japan to make the JSC telecine, and was never returned.

(I'm not implying that it was stolen, simply that Fox Japan could have misplaced it or forgotten to send it back. That also doesn't mean it would still be there now; Fox/Lucasfilm could have recovered it during the element search for the SE restoration. And I myself admit that the Japan theory is the least likely one. I don't even know if the JSC transfer was done *in* Japan, I'm just guessing based on the fact that Fox had to use the hardsubbed Japanese masters for the American widescreen LDs.)

-Your theory may provide a clue to the origin of the Technidisc/GOUT source. It was assumed to be the "first-generation" IP, and was found in "a special vault having only opticals" after a "massive search" for a subtitle-free IP. If it's a chronologically earlier source, why did it have the cloudless composite, and why did have the burn marks that were missing from the IP used for the earlier transfers (which was ALSO subtitle-free)? And why was it found in a vault intended for storing opticals? I'm beginning to wonder if it was actually an element used to make the export versions...

-Does anybody here have the old, pre-THX French/German widescreen LDs? They seemingly used a different film source than the JSC master, because while they also have the Greedo scene without the English subs, that one scene is cut in from a clearly inferior print.  This suggests that their main source had the burned-in subs, and may not be the same as the JSC, in which case the takeoff composite may be different.

-russs15, could you maybe provide screenshots of this scene from the ITV broadcast? That version seems to be a film-chain from a flat, cropped Academy print (like the ones that used to show up on eBay from time to time). It has the EpIV crawl and lacks the Tantive burn marks, but it has the 1977 flyover instead of the recomposite. Perhaps the Yavin takeoff shot is different there too?

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TServo2049 said:

-Does anybody here have the old, pre-THX French/German widescreen LDs? They seemingly used a different film source than the JSC master, because while they also have the Greedo scene without the English subs, that one scene is cut in from a clearly inferior print. This suggests that their main source had the burned-in subs, and may not be the same as the JSC, in which case the takeoff composite may be different.

FWIW JSC has a video splice at that point, right after Gringo's last words.
There's two consecutive 3's in JSC's telecine pattern (in GOUT terminology 71933/71934).
Doesn't prove, but suggests JSC's main source could've had subs...

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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TServo2049 said:

-The IB Tech prints don't have the "shaky" crawl Mike V was talking about. For the 1981 re-release, Fox's UK division took the IB prints in their inventory and spliced on the Episode IV crawl in Eastmancolor. All of the known surviving IB prints have this alteration, so we don't know which opening crawl they originally had. (The fact that the film was released in the UK in December 1977, so it makes sense that it's the "revised version.")

 

What crawl composite the IB Tech prints had, I guess we'll never find out, but like you said it was probably the more stable version.

TServo2049 said:

-If the IP used for the 80s video masters was from an older source (see: lack of burn marks, lack of Greedo subs, "cloudy" composite), why does it have the revised credits? Were they spliced in at some point? (I'm guessing the cut point would have been at the final group shot...)

Yeah, if this is the case the final group shot would have been the most logical point I guess, but it could have been done pretty much anywhere in that last reel for all we know, this master also have mid-reel splices. There are at least visual evidence of a splice for the crawl but I cannot see something similar for the credits.

TServo2049 said:

-Does anybody here have the old, pre-THX French/German widescreen LDs? They seemingly used a different film source than the JSC master, because while they also have the Greedo scene without the English subs, that one scene is cut in from a clearly inferior print. This suggests that their main source had the burned-in subs, and may not be the same as the JSC, in which case the takeoff composite may be different.

-russs15, could you maybe provide screenshots of this scene from the ITV broadcast? That version seems to be a film-chain from a flat, cropped Academy print (like the ones that used to show up on eBay from time to time). It has the EpIV crawl and lacks the Tantive burn marks, but it has the 1977 flyover instead of the recomposite. Perhaps the Yavin takeoff shot is different there too?

I agree that it would be interesting if people with PAL sources could provide screenshots of the things discussed, don't know if that many will notice our discussion, so maybe better to start a separate thread for these requests?

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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 (Edited)

Darth Mallwalker said:

FWIW JSC has a video splice at that point, right after Gringo's last words.
There's two consecutive 3's in JSC's telecine pattern (in GOUT terminology 71933/71934).
Doesn't prove, but suggests JSC's main source could've had subs...

Good point, the different aspect ratio and framing/cropping in the Technidisc master in the Gringo scene I demonstrated in my thread, suggests the main source for that may have had subs as well.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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 (Edited)

msycamore said:

Darth Mallwalker said:

FWIW JSC has a video splice at that point, right after Gringo's last words.
There's two consecutive 3's in JSC's telecine pattern (in GOUT terminology 71933/71934).
Doesn't prove, but suggests JSC's main source could've had subs...

Good point, the different aspect ratio and framing/cropping in the Technidisc master in the Gringo scene I demonstrated in my thread, suggests the main source for that may have had subs as well.

But I thought they specifically tracked down the "first-generation IPs" because they were subtitle-free. Does that mean that they only used said IP as a source for the Greedo scene, and not the rest of the film? (If so, that could rule out my "Technidisc/GOUT source was used to make the foreign versions" theory.)

I think it would be a good idea to try to do a visual comparison of the scene as it appears in the JSC, Technidisc and GOUT. Perhaps the "first generation" source tracked down for the Definitive Collection was not used in the Technidisc transfer (which was done in 1992 for the VHS box set). It could have even been dropped in from the JSC master.

This could mean that every pre-SE home video transfer had the scene cut in from a different source via video editing. The 80s P&S video masters dropped in the version made for cropped Academy flat prints (the kind that used to be shown on airlines; at least one has turned up on eBay before). The subtitles are optical, and the cropping is identical in the time-compressed and uncompressed versions.

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 (Edited)

It seems that my 2nd theory is about to be proven wrong as well. ;) I asked russ to post a screenshot of that composite from his '80's UK ITV broadcast, and it contains the "cloudy composite":

I wonder which credit roll is on that telecine, I have asked him to check. IIRC this was a mono print, right?

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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The 80's ITV broadcast IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY had a mono version of the theatrical stereo mix

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The recording Russ have did not contain the credits...

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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Thanks to Russ we can now see that the PAL video releases follow a similar pattern to the NTSC - cloudy composite in all except the last digitally mastered release:

1982

1987/1989

1991

1994

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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I remember when I had some idea of what we were talking about on this thread.

;-)

Star Wars Revisited Wordpress

Star Wars Visual Comparisons WordPress

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"Red Leader, this is Gold Leader."

The Y-Wings outside his window disappeared on the last frame in the original, corrected in the 2004 transfer.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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Did Harmy remove the Y-Wings for this frame ? :-)

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Haha yeah, I remember noticing stuff like that when analyzing SW shot by shot for mine and DJ's project.

Too bad I forgot to report this to Harmy. Here's his version:

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Oh, no, really? I mean I can still fix that for v2.1, it's a simple matter of removing the fighters in photoshop and then replacing the frame, like I did with the faulty frame before but this is a never-ending battle.

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Harmy said:

Oh, no, really? I mean I can still fix that for v2.1, it's a simple matter of removing the fighters in photoshop and then replacing the frame, like I did with the faulty frame before but this is a never-ending battle.

I'm sure that EVERYBODY here is VERY grateful for your desire to bring your version as close a possible to the 1977 version. But I know it must be seriously annoying to find MORE changes even this late

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adywan said:

pittrek said:

The 80's ITV broadcast IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY had a mono version of the theatrical stereo mix

The 80's ITV broadcast contained the mono mix.

Thanks !

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Yes like Adywan said, the ITV broadcast contains the genuine mono mix and not a stereo fold-down. One of those early ITV broadcasts was actually what was utilized when doing the mono restoration project. This is what destroys my theory...

I thought this early print variation could be traced to a difference between the early batch of Dolby prints vs. later batch of '77 prints. Prints with the mono mix didn't get out until June '77, that's when I thought this change occurred. But the ITV-broadcast contains the cloudy composite and mono mix - the first source encountered with that trait.

Could the audio and video be from separate sources? Mystery... ;)

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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 (Edited)

Since the ITV version looks to be an in-house transfer, the film print they received was most likely Academy flat (i.e., the film was unsqueezed and cropped using an optical printer, so the print itself was P&S), but who knows what element it might have been derived from?

If only someone could track down one of those flat 16mm prints that used to appear on eBay, that might answer some of the questions.

Actually, now that I think about it, the presence of the clouds on the ITV print actually makes some sense - remember, it also lacks the Tantive burn marks, which means that the picture might have been derived from the same, or at least a similar, film source as the official video masters of the era. (I wonder if it has some of the same damage, like maybe those dark blobs during the saber training...)

If it was a cropped print, the presence of the mono mix isn't really an enigma, Fox or Lucasfilm or whoever likely just combined the mono soundtrack with the cropped picture element.

One key difference is that, though I believe it has the Episode IV crawl, it has the 1977 flyover, meaning the edit point is right after the crawl instead of at the end of the flyover as it usually is.

Here's what Catnap looks like:

It has the clouds. Not surprising, it shares a lot of printed-in damage and splices with the Puggo Grande print, so both 16mm prints must have been made off the same internegative.

EDIT: Here's Starkiller/MeBeJedi, or at least this is the version I could find on Usenet. I did some hue/saturation correction, but this is the best I could get out of the who-knows-what'th-generation quality:

Well, that's just great. Due to the generation loss and the digital macroblocking (not really visible in this frame), I can't TELL whether or not the clouds are there! My instincts say they aren't, but it's so degraded that the planet just looks like a big blob of color.

Does anybody at least have a copy of this bootleg without the macroblocking, or is this it?

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TServo, I'll start a separate thread for this...

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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none said:

TServo2049 wrote: Does anybody at least have a copy of this bootleg without the macroblocking, or is this it?

TWC326 is from the same source, it maybe one generation above Starkiller/MeBeJedi:

more automated pics here: http://fd.noneinc.com/Theater_Performance/1977-TWC326_SWB-1.html

 

I appreciate the resources, but those screencaps are ghastly!

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No way! Check out the vibrancy of those crispy '77 colours ;)

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I wonder how often the archeologists at Pompeii have to deal with people commenting on the amount of dirt.