The Unofficial Complete REVISITED SAGA Ideas and Random Discussion Thread — Page 6

Bingowings said:

DominicCobb said:

^This

Serioudly, I've talked about this before. I don't think preserving the secret makes the films stronger at all. Quite the opposite.

A) Name one cool story point from the PT worth fretting over losing. If you are saying Palpatine being behind both armies I'm with you, other than that it's an unassembled bucket of bolts (and we know how good a well assembled bucket of bolts can be).

B) How many versions of the PT have you seen that do maintain the secrets of the OT? How many versions that don't actually work?

There's nothing to lose and everything to gain with the PT.

Make them Episodes One to Three and not the Prequels and they may just be salvaged.

True. In fact, if we lost the films completely it would be no loss at all.

This conversation is tricky. I know this place is called Original Trilogy.com so, as a fan of the prequels, I tread pretty lightly here. Theres clearly some agree to disagree that will be needed if you think that losing the prequels altogether is no big loss.

Trying to stay to technicalities of it though. I think there is no way it works if you show Padme being pregnant. Based on cutting things that exist. You guys that are skilled at adding dialog and stuff, then that might be different.

That said. I think it would be a shame to lose the scene with Anakin becoming Vader. I think thats a powerful scene. For us its a great homage to the Darth Vader suit. For newbies its a painful scene where Anakin is being locked inside this cage.

Additionally. If you are truly talking about newbies. Trying to imagine a 10 year old or 20 year old who has no concept of I am you father. Then Id venture to say that the "Surprise" of Anakin actually turning bad is an amazing surprise. I mean really, whod believe he was actually going to go that bad. We know movies. We know people drift toward the dark side, but to end the way Revenge of the Sith ends. Thats a shock.

As I said before there are possibilities.

Having Obi-wan have more than one apprentice or implying as such, never calling Anakin "Skywalker", removing the romance so it becomes a shock that Padme and Anakin actually got it on, make it look as if Bail is having a fling with her instead.

If in Episodes 2 and 3 focus is placed more on the story and less on the characters of Padme and Anakin (largely because they don't have much and what they have is awful) they become semi background characters instead of the main characters.

Padme has to be the focus of the first film because she is the only character that's in most of the film that can be tweaked into being interesting.

Obi-Wan has the potential to be interesting in Episode 2.

Palpatine is the star of Episode 3.

If the story is sharpened and built around each of those characters it's amazing how much awful character scenes you can trim.

Naturally you have to replace what you remove with something worth watching or it will become a very short television episode instead of a movie.

I've contemplated a hyrbid SW saga. The number sequence would change, and in the prequel instances those films could be combined to keep those needed elements while having enough film to not sacrifice run-time.

We don't need 3 films, we don't need 6 films. We need just enough to accomplish the right story. We don't need to be caught up in our trilogies. Harry Potter managed to resist the  trilogy mold, why can't Star Wars?

I just think (and, yes, I haven't actually seen anything to back up my claim) that the whole point of the prequels and the surprise is ruined if you put Ep 1-3 first and have them preserve the secret.

Don't really want to go into why again, I feel like I've explained this enough.

If you watch the last three episodes of any story first it will ruin the first three.

Episodes 1 to 3 are unique because they are advertised as such (The episode numbers were frequently pushed more heavily than the actual episode titles), labeled as such and yet if you watch them first they ruin the last three episodes.

Like the screwy filming resolution the stories weren't future proof (think of the generations where TPM is their point of entry into the saga).

Fixing that may only prove to be a 'what if' or 'should have been' as no fan edit will replace the official versions in the popular consciousness but it should be attempted just to warn future directors of the folly of screwing up their existing work.

Honestly I think nobody will even notice if you remove the name Skywalker in direct reference to Anakin from the PT.

Trust me.

Someone mentioned Obi-wan having multiple pupils, and it got my cogs turning.

During Episode II, what if Obi-wan discovers that a clone army was being created. What if he discovers the request was made by someone named "Darth Vader?"  Later on there is a battle between Kenobi and someone in a proto-Darth costume (possibly replacing Jango in the night/rain confrontation), and during the fight Darth uses a signature move that only Kenobi or one of his students would know.

Then the lingering question as we go into Episode III is, "which one of Kenobi's students is Darth Vader?"  And why would they help create a clone army?

And since the concept of clones is so prominent in Star Wars, I've always wondered why no one has used clones as the solution to the whole "Darth Vader murdered your father" conundrum.  You could easily have Anakin/Darth murder a cloned Anakin (Anaakin?) in order to keep his identity as Darth Vader secret from Kenobi and the rest of the gang.  Plus it solves any issues of having Anakin and the proto-Vader in different places at the same time.

That brings another great reason to add additional students; the concept of a small "gang."  You really felt Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie, etc were a team.  The PT sorely misses this type of camaraderie.

Replacing Fett (and reusing the footage) is tricky (read probably impossible) because of the rain.

Grievous is more easy, you could remove him entirely and replace him with a man in a suit.

I mentioned on one of the other threads Vader being a fugue state for Anakin so he could retrieve his mother's corpse without a massacre only for a mysterious dark avenger to slaughter the Tuskens.

Also Palpatine would have a name in mind for his new apprentice so may refer to Darth Vader before Anakin goes bad creating the impression that he pre-exists his fall.

I'm all for using McQuarrie's earlier designs during the Jedi massacre scenes.

Yoda and Ben could go into exile during the massacres allowing for a suited Vader to hunt down and kill escaping Jedi.

Personally I'm very much on board with the notion that the clones of ANH "clone war" fame (long before the prequels came out) were more of a "you never knew exactly who you were dealing with" kind of situation...whether the real person or a clone of said person.....I think it was quite the wasted opportunity for GL to box himself in by making the troopers the ONLY clones (like no-one else had ever thought about cloning people for other purposes........how interesting would it have been for Obi to have been investigating who ordered clones in the first place only to find out that it was a clone of himself....thus leading to him fighting himself...blah blah blah....and then leading to a complete ban on cloning (for obvious reasons) thus explaining why it doesn't play a part in episodes 4-6)....the same way it was boxing himself in story-wise to say that only 2 Sith could ever exist at the same time....BORING.

Additionally, Palpy tossing out Vader's name before Vader appears......this is rather awesome.

All I'm saying is if the the prequels are supposed to be seen first, they wouldn't have been made second.

I hear what you are saying but Star Wars as a series is very unusual.

Can you think of any other series where the second installment is called Episode V?

And while you may say it makes sense to watch them only in order of production or maybe propose a 4,5,1,2,3,6 order the unshakable truth is they are numbered in a sequence.

And therefore they should work in that sequence by default (they can work in other configurations too but the default should be the numbered sequence).

If Lucas hadn't called ESB "Episode V" none of this would be a problem.

Indeed I doubt if we would have had a PT and would probably have had a sequel trilogy instead.

It was the speculation about what the other episodes were and what the story was like in the round that fueled a lot of the hype that resulted in the PT being even more of a disappointment than it deserved to be.

And it deserved it because they were bad films anyway.

Bad films that do not pay off 19 years of anticipation get what's coming to them.

I completely understand what you're saying, but I disagree.

See I always looked at the Star Wars series as being purposefully out of order. 1-3 comes first, but they give you 4-6 first, so you're surprised by something that normally wouldn't be a twist. Then, afterwards, you go back and see what they didn't show you, the first three episodes in which that twist is developed and explained. 

I always saw the prequels as "how Luke's father became Darth Vader." It was, to me, all about explaining the twist. So "preserving the secret" just doesn't seem right to me.

nightstalkerpoet said:

I'm curious about this... what if you simply remove the episode numbers? I know that seems like a strange fix... but I think the second the OT has shed the episode numbers, I can look at it as a standalone trilogy again.

 

 Sh*tty films is sh*tty films...regardless of their number. I have zero problem disregarding or ignoring the PT as it stands right now. I'm on board with Revisited because I think they can be made BETTER....but they'll never be the films I think should have been made......and that has absolutely nothing to do with numbers or the order they should be watched in. Ady has said he wants to make them watchable in 1-6 order, and wants to maintain the surprise....I'm anxious to see it. First time I've been excited about SW since I realized that the whole PT was gonna suck (which was sometime between 2 & 3).....so I think that counts for something.

I agree with DominicCobb, If I were to introduce someone to the films (at the minute....Pre Revisited) I would play them OT first, the story plays better that way...going back to explain.

I was thinking of watching the Bond movies in sequence.....obviously watching Daniel Craig's Casino Royale before Dr No

J

I always thought it would be unique and different watching the prequals as if R2 was displaying a hologram.  Remnants are recovered from the Jedi Archives, but they are incomplete.  This would make it acceptable to break up the continuity a bit, cutting what can't be changed, but keeping what works. 

Jaitea said:

I was thinking of watching the Bond movies in sequence.....obviously watching Daniel Craig's Casino Royale before Dr No

Obviously not silly.

Craig's 007 is another agent adopting the identity this was all made clear in Niven's Casino Royale (which you should play before Dr No).

Yes, the prequels are a strange case.  Clearly someone must have mentioned to George that he was ruining two key reveals in ESB while scripting them. Obviously his objective was to deliver "money shots" (ie- Yoda kicking butt, Anakin strapping on the big black mask).  Done, case closed.

And I understand DominicCobb and Jaitea's points about how the PT exists to be played AFTER viewing the OT.  When I'm blessed to have children one day, I assume I'll show them the OT before the PT. 

However, that's a moot point in this discussion.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the basic conceit of this thread/project to alter the PT so that it better fits in with the cultural landmark that is the OT?  Preserving the sanctity of the original narrative above all?

First let me say that I am all in favor of seeing this done. While I generally am betting that it can't be done and generally think that it doesn't need to be done, Id like to see it. Its been part of the biggest debate there is surround the prequels, so Im absolutely excited to see someone try it. And I'd be first in line to eat some mynock and admit Im wrong if it works.

A couple of things. Drax is right that the it is INTENDED to be watch by the numbers. But wrong when saying it doesnt work. It does WORK, but it changes something that you and a ton of other people, myself included, love. If I say it doesn't work for you, thats not a blow-off. It matters. But it does work for me. I find the saga much more interesting this way if perhaps less "cool" in certain aspects.

What Lucas did is brilliant. And this discussion is an example of that brilliance, even though most people think this debate is an example of his stupidity. He did something thats never been done, or even tried. He crafted these three films to take place before the existing films in such a way that they function properly when watched in the new order but that are also satisfying to those whod already seen the others. So the debate 1-6 or OT-PT is a cool one that can truly be done either way.

Lucas made the right choice in not trying to protect that surprise because I don't think it was protectable at all. Not only do I think there is no way to edit the films in a way that protects the surprise. I don't think there was a way to write them and produce them from scratch that would have protected it. Not without making the whole thing suck.

Ask yourself honestly. Do you think you personally wouldn't figure it out? Is there any version of 3 prequel movies that legitimately show Anakin's backstory and the fall of the Jedi/Rise of Empire where YOU personally wouldn't figure it out in A New Hope? Aren't we all a little too sophisticated for that?

princethomas said:

First let me say that I am all in favor of seeing this done. While I generally am betting that it can't be done and generally think that it doesn't need to be done, Id like to see it. Its been part of the biggest debate there is surround the prequels, so Im absolutely excited to see someone try it. And I'd be first in line to eat some mynock and admit Im wrong if it works.

 

 

A couple of things. Drax is right that the it is INTENDED to be watch by the numbers. But wrong when saying it doesnt work. It does WORK, but it changes something that you and a ton of other people, myself included, love. If I say it doesn't work for you, thats not a blow-off. It matters. But it does work for me. I find the saga much more interesting this way if perhaps less "cool" in certain aspects.

 

What Lucas did is brilliant. And this discussion is an example of that brilliance, even though most people think this debate is an example of his stupidity. He did something thats never been done, or even tried. He crafted these three films to take place before the existing films in such a way that they function properly when watched in the new order but that are also satisfying to those whod already seen the others. So the debate 1-6 or OT-PT is a cool one that can truly be done either way.

 

Lucas made the right choice in not trying to protect that surprise because I don't think it was protectable at all. Not only do I think there is no way to edit the films in a way that protects the surprise. I don't think there was a way to write them and produce them from scratch that would have protected it. Not without making the whole thing suck.

Ask yourself honestly. Do you think you personally wouldn't figure it out? Is there any version of 3 prequel movies that legitimately show Anakin's backstory and the fall of the Jedi/Rise of Empire where YOU personally wouldn't figure it out in A New Hope? Aren't we all a little too sophisticated for that?

You may be right, but I'm not sure. However, even if you are, I would rather figure it out than it be spelled out to me. I hate when movies pretend the audience is stupid and has to be handed all the information.

You may be right, but I'm not sure. However, even if you are, I would rather figure it out than it be spelled out to me. I hate when movies pretend the audience is stupid and has to be handed all the information.

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Ok. Now thats true in general but not for this I don't think. I don't want a mystery spelled out to me. But this simly isn't made to be a mystery. Its not spelling it out, its just what happens.

Again though. Im cool with the debate. I really am and Id love to see a really good polished attempt at it.

Well, I think it could be done in a film. However, I'm not completely convinced it can't be done without remaking the films entirely. Which is what I would really want. But that won't happen until George is wearing pearly-white flannel.

Maybe. Who knows? Anyone friends with Katie Lucas?