Just going to say a few more things.
darth_ender said:
4. Did Talia still have the clicker? Did Batman tape the jammer to the bomb when he flew off with it? I hope against the former, but in its event I hope in favor of the latter.
I believe Gordon attached the jammer, and I think Talia died before the bomb went off anyway, didn't she?
Yes, she was already dead.
5. What is Talia’s motivation exactly? She is trying to fulfill her father’s mission or not? Is Gotham still the festering cesspool that concerned the league of shadows? Didn’t Batman/Dent/Gordon clean it up almost completely? Did Talia want revenge on her father’s killer? She said that was just a bonus. Was she concerned about the organized crime and corrupt cops? Or capitalism run wild?
Same argument I presented against Ra's himself. They were convinced Gotham was corrupt, so they corrupted it as much as possible to justify their actions. Talia also simply had a desire to finish what Daddy started. But also, I suspect they felt the rich were corrupt for remaining rich...the OWS argument.
The argument was that they cleaned up the streets based on a lie, which proved that Gotham was truly beyond saving (if that was the only way to stop crime).
6. I thought Bane was really interesting and scary until Talia appeared holding his leash. This turned him into a petty thug in my mind.
Agreed, this made him weaker, almost like the Poison Ivy/Bane relationship. I wish that more Talia had been revealed, and that Bane maintained more of a mutual partnership than a subservient loyalty. But it didn't destroy it for me.
I don't get this. One of my friends said the same thing, but I don't see where this comes from. How is Talia holding his leash? It seemed to me like they were working in tandem and did have a mutual partnership. I don't know where this subservient thing comes from. The only time we even saw Talia give Bane any orders was when she told him to keep Batman alive so he could see the fire. And then after she left he disobeyed that order.
7. How did the Daggett/Bane/Talia thing work anyways. Before the ending, I thought Daggett hired Bane because he was a skilled mercenary, didn’t realize he bit off more than he could chew... and actually thought that Bane would just disappear once the job was done. However Bane saw an opportunity and didn’t want to let it go, so he took advantage of it. Once we learn that Bane and Talia have been working together all along... where does Daggett come in? Did Talia manipulate Daggett to do what he did? How did she put Bane in contact with Daggett? Outwardly Talia and Daggett appear to be bitter rivals. Was this simply a show?
I admit, on one viewing, I was confused by this whole interwoven relationship. But in the end, I think I'd answer your last question: yes.
When I saw the film a second time I realized that Bane and Talia were really in charge the whole time. As to how they got Daggett to hire Bane, I think it's up to your imagination. There was really no where they could have explained this within the film, but I'm sure there is an explanation. I'm pretty sure though that Daggett had no idea that Miranda was involved. He was simply a pawn.
8. If Talia/Bane knew the bomb was going to go off, and this was allegedly what they wanted all along, why give Batman, the cops the chance to stop it? Just click the Button as soon as Batman shows up/the cops riot and make sure your 5 month siege ends with an earth-shattering-kaboom even if it is 10 hours premature.
Agreed. But that's Hollywood for ya. It's not like this is the first time this plot hole emerges in a film. In fact, when has it ever been otherwise?
Yeah these things are always tough. They tried their best to explain it with the "slow knife" line.
11. John Blake figured Bruce was Batman because he was faking being happy? I think that’s a bridge too far. I think you could fix this with. Blake: All of the orphans idolized you. The Billionaire orphan! We’d come up with elaborate fantasies about you. And what could be better than a billionaire orphan playboy, than a billionaire orphan playboy who was also the Batman? It was ridiculous to be sure, but then it started to make sense. Bruce Wayne came to Gotham the same time Batman did. Batman went into hiding the same time Bruce Wayne became a recluse. Of course, I wasn’t totally sure, until you let me in today.
I agreed and didn't like this explanation. Yours is much better.
I think this is how Blake found out. They could have included it, yes, but the point of the conversation was mainly to build John Blake's character.
17. But then he sleeps with Talia.
No argument there. If they'd developed this further, it'd be more believable as he tried to finally let Rachel go, but instead it comes off as a high school rebound when he finds out about the letter. Besides, I imagine most know about my distaste for sex outside of marriage in films anyway. They could have simply shown Talia and Bruce kissing in the room with the sheets covering all the furniture, then let people draw their own conclusions. I suspect this was to make her treachery more painful for the viewer, but that didn't work for me. We needed to see a relationship more than [JohnAdams]sexual combustability[/JohnAdams].
I'm going out on a limb here and guessing that Bruce Wayne probably banged a few chicks when Rachel was still alive. While we never see him do it, so it's easy to believe he's this chaste hero, waiting for Rachel. But I think it would be entirely in keeping with the Bruce Wayne playboy character.
18. Why did Bane totally wreck Batman when they first fight, but Batman can easily take him on after a couple months of recovering from a broken back? Was he in better fighting shape after being in the jail.
It didn't seem easy to me. He just decided to focus on breaking the mask with the anesthetic, as he'd learned its function in the prison. Plus, he had some serious righteous anger fueling him.
I read an article where they talk to the choreographer. He says that in the final battle, Batman uses a different fighting style. So I think if you put that on top of ender's argument, you've got a pretty good explanation.
24. For the first time, the Batman growl-voice annoyed me. Perhaps everything else above had suspended my suspension of disbelief... Perhaps I have heard too many spoofs of the voice... that Bale's voice sounded a lot like in this movie.
No argument there, though actually I found it more tolerable in this film than TDK. FYI, not a rebuttal, but his voice was altered in post-production.
Okay, I'll admit that while I've never had ANY problems with his voice, when he said "citizen" in this one, it took me out of it for a second.
25. Batman's first night back in Gotham- he has about 20 hours to stop the bomb from killing everyone- and he spends the entire night rigging skyscraper windows and the bridge supports to burn a Bat signal when he pushes a button? Was that really the best use of his time? How many people (besides Bane) even saw them? I heard the Bale voice spoof growling- "Look! I... spent all night... rigging those fires... because fires are cool... bats are cool... bats on fire are super cool... except that they're hot... because they're on... fire."
ALLOL. That's very funny, I'll be honest. But I imagine he spent time getting his plans together. But this was also a moment to inspire hope in those he would need as allies, while placing some dread into the hearts of his enemies.
Didn't think of that. But yeah, ender's right. It wasn't because it looked cool. It's all about the symbol. It's all about hope.
26. I thought the ending was a total cheat. I am so sick of fake deaths in films, and superhero films are some of the worst. I thought Nolan might have been above it. Guess not.
Again, I agree. Wholeheartedly in fact. If they had to do anything, I would have cut all allusions to his surviving except the fixed up autopilot and Alfred looking at the camera and nodding. Even then, how did he get the bomb far away enough from Gotham, then get himself far away enough from the bomb, all without being noticed? Did he have a jet powered Bat-glider? Did he get off before it got very far, just as it passed behind a building?
Showing him in the Bat seconds before it explodes was an editing cheat, in my opinion. I think he got out while he was still over Gotham. But sometimes you got to make those types of cheats for dramatic reasons. I'm not going to get into it, because I have before, but the ending, as-is, is perfect in my opinion.
And this is probably the final kicker for me: Bruce was Batman for how long before the end of TDK? 2 years? Can it be that long? Could it be as short as a couple of months? And then he goes into 8 years of retirement. He reappears for a couple of nights and then disappears for 5 months... and is back for one more day before he's "dead" again. There’s no room for any more Batman stories. No other villains. Nothing. I understand that Nolan and company wanted to tell the end of the Batman story
Of course there was plenty of room, but I think Nolan's justification for not leaving this one open for a sequel was quite reasonable...better to end on a high note than to have a final, franchise-crushing failure like Spider-man 3. I think the greatest error in the three films that led to your complaint was the timeframe between the first and second film (6 months later), which left little room for imagined in-between stuff (or that horrible Gotham Knight interquel, if you accept that). Fix that 6 month gap, make it like 3 years, and it'd be better pacing for the whole arc.
I don't see how this is even a critique. Am I missing something here? I've never seen anyone criticize a movie before because you can't make any more stories.