logo Sign In

THX 1138 "preservations" + the 'THX 1138 Italian Cut' project (Released) — Page 49

Author
Time

I saw it on tv in the late 70's early 80's. It was hyped as being "from the director of Star Wars", which created false expectations in my young mind of course. For some reason the dialog was hard to hear at times, which didn't help much.

Where were you in '77?

Author
Time

msycamore said:

Also, if you Spaced Ranger or anyone else is willing to give the 16mm footage a shot with your methods, let me know and I'll send it to you, all help is appreciated. The work on the LD is taking all my time at the moment.

I don't think i should try (not right now anyways) because i have enough projects I'm working on but I am curious: How large is the file size, is it lagarith avi? Frame size? Frame rate? What color space?

OT-DAWT-COM nieghbour and sometime poster (Remember, Tuesday is Soylent Green day!)

Author
Time
 (Edited)

msycamore said:

The approach was just me playing around with colormill in VirtualDub ...

It's very hard to twiddle dials and eye-ball it. Every adjustment affects everything else, and the mind's eye further interferes with the perception of the results. We need something more definitive ... like a fade-fingerprint™ of a film's present state of deterioration to calculate a counter-fade self-correction. But until then ... cheat! :)

msycamore said:

Also, if you Spaced Ranger or anyone else is willing to give the 16mm footage a shot with your methods, let me know ...

Sure! That'd be cool! (PM me with details.)

SilverWook said:

Never knew there were any widescreeen showings on cable. I can't recall even seeing it on TCM before the DE came along. Same damn video master...

This particular TNT fullscreen was cablecast 1995 and the Bravo widescreen one was cablecast 1997.

.

@msycamore - BTW, have you posted a raw video clip of this last-posted SEN scene?

Author
Time

Spaced Ranger said:and the Bravo widescreen one was cablecast 1997.

Hosted by Steven Soderbergh, apparently a diehard THX fan. Maybe he has a print. 

Author
Time

Reviewing this previous "color corrected" frame reminded me to bring up a caveat. Notice the "grain" in SEN's face? That is not film grain. Rather, it is by-product of color correction in the digital world. For example, consider the Star Trek book Star Trek The Original Series 365:

It started out as a Star Trek fan effort to collect and archive "lost" 35mm Star Trek film clips, with an eye to possible publication (their updated website StarTrekHistory.com removed most of the original altruistic sharing of their archive when they went commercial). Interestingly, many of the faded 35mm film clips, now "restored", had an odd "signature" grain ... the same grain that appears in SEN's restored frame here. Same "grain", same "problem".

Film fade narrows the brightness range of the 3 color layers, to different degrees, with this recognized result:

In RGB, red takes the most hit. When RGB separated, this effect from the original faded frame can be seen in a very flat-looking red channel:

The aim of color correction is to spread that range back out to cover it's original spectrum:

But "new exaggerated grain" is generated from the "quick & dirty" digital process and is even visible in the representative graphs -- the smooth original curve to the stepped corrected one. Those steps must be smoothed.

Normally, smoothing would be applied to the complete frame, but that reduces legitimate detail, too, throughout the entire picture. However, while in RGB separations, the red (most correction) and the green and the blue (least corrections) can be smoothed individually, judiciously, and only as strong as needed in each case -- keeping as much real detail as possible. So, I applied a fairly strong "edge-preserving smooth" to red, a very weak one to green, a slightly stronger one to blue, and recombined the RGB separations to:

which now compares well to the non-corrected videotaped broadcast:

Keep in mind this demonstration was made in a paint program and does not exactly mimic video processing ... for better or for worse. :)

Author
Time

thxita said:

It would be the first time in the history of Italian dubbing to have a re-dub after only two years from the first release, but then again this film did have a peculiar story on its Italian distribution.

 

What I meant wasn't necessarily a complete re-dub, but if the re-release in Italy was the same cut as in the rest of the world, quite much added audio content had to be recorded.

thxita said:

About the SEN scene, I find it very nice... playing with the kids and everything. It shows that he's not a villain, I never considered him to be one but that scene surely adds more humanity to the character.

I agree, but I think the scene as it now stands also conveys that idea, but the additional dialogue there is nice.

Spaced Ranger said:

It's very hard to twiddle dials and eye-ball it. Every adjustment affects everything else, and the mind's eye further interferes with the perception of the results. We need something more definitive ... like a fade-fingerprint™ of a film's present state of deterioration to calculate a counter-fade self-correction. But until then ... cheat! :)

Yeah, it was just sort of a quick fix to see what could be done with it, I've also little experience in color correction and with such filters in VirtualDub so any help is appreciated. I don't know if the fading is consistent to this in the rest of the print but I guess so, but what we come up with can be of great help when/if Puggo is about to work on it.

I have not posted a raw clip of this. Don't recall what codec is needed for the avi at the moment but I believe you need a DV codec istalled, the video is 29.970fps so it will require pulldown and the audio is captured separately. The size of the file is just 724 MB. I'll see if I can PM you the links later today.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

Author
Time

Your's is a pretty good color-correction (much better than the faded source).

I, too, have played with assorted settings and just cannot get it spot-on. In past, I would resort to a cascade of filtering [in paint program tests] to get it better. (Not happy using that approach, though. Being a minimalist, I always search the core of the process for the problem and a "magic bullet" to kill it with one shot.)

Your recently posted, corrected video segment has the brightness varying within individual shots. How did you capture the original 16mm film (forgive the ignorance -- my quick scan of this sizable thread is confusing as you seem to be working on a number of preservations)? Is it a capture problem? (BTW, do you test & adjust for a non-blown-out/crushed capture?) Will you leave it in that condition? How about the all the per-frame dirt/spots and full-length scratches? (Only asking because color correction should be performed on a stable source.)

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Puggo is the one who graciously did the capture for us with the same gear used for his current OT projects.

It is a pretty badly faded and worn out print. If not for that lost scene, I would consider burying it. ;)

Where were you in '77?

Author
Time

Yes, Puggo is the man and SilverWook is the owner of the print, I only have some footage of it that he sent me and I actually think it's a cool thing to get preserved despite its condition. If Puggo can get it to look somewhat similar to what Spaced Ranger did with his example it will be a great grindhouse version. :)

I'm currently adjusting the aspect ratio on the UK LD footage then finally on to audio syncing...

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

Author
Time

captainsolo said:

THX never ran on TV. ...

Just FYI ... "Columbia Broadcasting System (CBS) (1973) (USA) (TV) (original airing)" -IMDb: THX 1138

BTW, anyone have a taping of such early broadcasts (consumer recording formats: Betamax 1975+, VHS 1976+)?

Author
Time

Spaced Ranger, I will PM you the links to the 16mm files as soon as I'm able to if you're still interested to play with them, there's very bad weather around here lately, so I'm a little paranoid to have my PC hooked up. The power comes and goes...

If someone would show up with a recording of such an early broadcast it would be really, really cool, we can hope and dream.

DisgruntledFan, thank you so much for those scans! excellent quality, very nice to see it in such a high resolution, much appreciated. :)

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

Author
Time

Yes, definitely!

** BTW, a battery back-up gives much piece of mind. There's nothing like an orderly computer shutdown after the power goes out. ;) **

In anticipation of color correcting, I've been doing more concept brainstorming. Then I noticed that the paint program's curves results (from sampled points) looked familiar -- like when using the histogram expand and compress adjustments. This intrigued me as I'm still researching the "fade-fingerprint" (how film fades over time) technique for fade auto-compensation.

By using "midtones: expand / compress" (so named in this paint program) to individually restore the fade-flattened ranges of the RGB separations, and "gamma" to re-center the ranges when needed, I was able to manually step-back the fade ... in the way it faded (very pleased about that).

In the histogram function, the grey is the original fade damage and the resultant red-overlay is the correction. It is important to note that I made anti-fade adjustments by concept and only used the eye-dropper to verify high-end and low-end fine tuning:

The result is the best yet -- which included a pre-smoothing (an improvement over the post-smooth of my previous post), which prevented "new exaggerated grain" from forming in the first place:

Hopefully, this will translate well when using video tools.

 

Author
Time

Msycamore, a few days ago I sent you the subtitles, did you get them?

Author
Time

I'm noticing that some posted pictures are having trouble getting through from ImageShack, from time to time. (They must be swamped with requests and just drop those they can't handle.) Be sure to set your browser to display "image placeholders" so you'll know if you're not getting any required pictures.

Author
Time

Haven't checked my mail in a few days thxita, thanks! :)

Your latest example is pretty damn impressive, Spaced Ranger. :) Hopefully it will work in the video realm as well.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

Author
Time
 (Edited)

eBay T-shirts :D
Buy more. Buy more now. Buy, and be happy.

"It's all being buried with me," Lucas told reporters. "All copies of the two trilogies will be brought to my gravesite within one month of my death and laid to rest with me. .... I don't know why the fans are so mad," Lucas said. "I've been saying all along that they are my movies. ... When they have to hand over all their Star Wars toys, models, framed pictures, clothes, cups, and everything else to be buried with me, then they'll really flip-out." - George Lucas Announces Latest Star Wars Legality (2005)

Author
Time

LOL! When he'll be dead we will see about that !

Author
Time

DisgruntledFan said:

Just ran across a review of THX 1138 in a March 1972 issue of the UK film magazine 'Films Illustrated' (Three stars out of four)

Nothing particularly amazing about that - but it lists the running time as 95 minutes !

Probably a typo, does anyone have a copy of 'Monthly Film Bulletin' from 1972 to cross check ?

The BBFC record says 95 minutes, that running time on the UK release seems to just be a typo that have managed to survive over the years, we discussed it some earlier in the thread and I also got some word back from a guy over at cult movie forum regarding this difference in running time seen on some UK VHS cases: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/THX-1138-preservations-Italian-Cut-available-see-1st-post/post/456897/#TopicPost456897

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

Author
Time

Actually it just occurred to me 86 minutes is a little short for an average 1971/72 movie, all the other films in that issue are in the 92-125 minute range.

It's possible either the studio or the distributor wanted to avoid any negative stigma around a short running time, and gave an 'approximate' running time of 95 minutes to anyone who asked.

We can only speculate.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Regarding all the different versions, besides the extended SEN footage, I forgot to mention the different order of scenes on the previous page.

Scene order in Italian and German TV-broadcast and SilverWook's English 16mm print:

Drug evasion arrest --> LUH visits THX --> Medical examinations --> Trial & "pain prods" (electro-shock batons) scene --> THX is being monitored & researched --> THX put in prison

http://www.schnittberichte.com/schnittbericht.php?ID=709625

^ link to the comparison of the German TV version.

Scene order in English home video versions and 2004 Cut:

Drug evasion arrest --> Trial & "pain prods" (electro-shock batons) scene --> THX gets medical examinations --> THX is being monitored & researched --> LUH visits THX --> THX put in prison

If this odd re-ordering and the extended SEN footage is a TV-version thing or not, we don't know. I did watch the Italian broadcast again for the first time from beginning to the end since I made a DVD out of it, and I have to say I have an entirely different view of things now. First a little breakdown on what little info we do have;


The book "Skywalking" by Dale Pollock says on p.97 how Warner turned the film over to in-house editor Rudi Fehr:

"Fehr cut only four minutes from THX, mostly scenes in the White Limbo and some of George's bizarre attempts at humor."

George Lucas on the issue in "Maker of Films" from '71:

"Walter Murch did most of the soundwork, montages, what have you. The one problem is, that's one of the things Warner Brothers altered considerably, it was much more abstract and much more musical. The film was designed as a kind of opera you know, kind of a musical sience fiction film. And the soundtrack was composed under purely musical concepts and they didn't quite understand that, they thought they all had to tell the story. So essentially the biggest change is that they have injected more story, what they thought was the story, that's the story of... they took out all of the humor and the happiness and people laughing and stuff because they didn't..." (the interviewer interrupts him)

The original theatrical 1971 cut did also open with the Buck Rogers segment despite what is said on IMDB, a '71 review:

Back to the Italian broadcast, the 81 minutes duration match the US original threatrical cut yes, and there's many cuts throughout this version but the segments missing in the white limbo are few (one jarring cut when they monitor THX and another of a short monologue by SEN) and are very short in duration and everytime there is a cut in this version there's very rough splicing, there's also a jump in the audio at all these points, on some places the splicing actually causes the audio out of sync for a while, I recall I had to fix the sync on the intro when I made this DVD, maybe I should've preserved it as is. I wonder why there is such rough splicing, one of the first occur when it goes from opening titles to the first scene in the film, (many scenes from the english version went missing here) but here we still have the ongoing narration with a slight jump in the audio.

An example of the crude splicing...

^ after this scene where LUH and THX have an argument about SEN wanting to see her, it abruptly cuts to SEN's apartment.

But look what I found:

^ one single frame left of the following scene that got cut. ;)

The only thing that differs in this version besides the unique intro and missing footage that I think can maybe be attributed to Warner Brothers are those scenes I mentioned that got shifted around, as there's no splicing/jump in audio going on there.

However, right after the robot guards take THX away after LUH's visit, there's this little mystery that suddenly appears:

it then fades to black and medical examinations begin. Seems to me like a remnant from when THX is lying on the floor in the white limbo, (I believe it is his head we're seeing in the left upper corner) there's no visible or audible splice as seen elsewhere in this version, just a straight cut from the white room to this frame that fades away, very awkward and weird. This does seem to lend credence to this being something else than WB in-house editor's work, would be interesting to know if it is like that on your 16mm print as well SilverWook? maybe you can check that when you come back from your vacation.

Btw, here's how the cue marks look on this print if that can tell us anything?

Three white dots...

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

Author
Time
 (Edited)

George Lucas can have no secrets with the OT Detectives on the job! :D Good detective work, msycamore.

.

Color correction from the 16mm was creating color artifacts from dirt and scratches being adjusted (misadjusted), too. Cleaning would have to be done so that only the picture's colors would be corrected. That means spot removal and grain reduction. Although many use spacial filters to good effect, these destroy detail as well as noise. There is, however, another type of filter that uses the random nature of grain and dirt against itself without damaging static detail of the picture -- which is temporal filters.

I'm searching out and trying adjustments for these temporal filters (my favorite type of filters). I've used Fizick's MVTools (v.2) for Avisynth before and it's included function "MVDenoise" (temporal denoising with motion compensation) is a smart temporal filter. It watches the picture, frame to frame, to overlay those frames (even adjusting for the images as they move!), to have that random noise self-cancel (mostly) itself. Truly awesome.

Fizick also has a "DeSpot" filter (that & more at http://avisynth.org.ru/fizick.html) for the bigger "noise" of dirt and scratches, but it is far too cryptic for a user to expertly adjust (like many of these filters). It uses temporal and spacial filtering (thereby produces too many artifacts ... from all the misadjustments, no doubt).

Next, I came across SpotRemover for VirtualDub by khlopenkov. On it's face, this one looks more promising as it seems to be strictly temporal. The author has kindly posted a script for use in Avisynth and with "best settings". He even recommends using it in conjuction with MVTools. Is this fate? :)

Anyway, here's a first attempt to prep the 16mm for the previous color correction test:

Of course, all these filters have their own little artifactings, but these, at least, remove more bad than they add (and less conspicuously, too). If this looks like the direction you'd like to see this go, let me know. Naturally, I'll post the Avisynth script once it's finished (for Puggo to duplicate the results).

Author
Time

Thanks for the filter suggestions and testing you're doing Spaced Ranger, I very much looking forward to see what you can come up with in terms of the color correction. About the degraining, the results are quite impressive I guess, but I'm not a fan of it, not sure if that is something Puggo would like to do for his encode, personally I'm fine with the dirt and grain, especially on a print like this one, but that's me. There is always some loss of detail with this kind of filtering and I can see that there is at least one sort of artifact seen on the kids nose in that example.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com