greenpenguino said:
Mrebo said:
Warbler said:
Mrebo said:
Mrebo said:
Mrebo said:
The reason the flip flop criticism against Romney isn't so potent this time is that Kerry flipped on war issues which were central to the election.
and healthcare isn't central to this election?
Mrebo said:
In Romney, the flip flops have not risen to the level of centrality. The central issue is the economy.
and Obamacare.
*sigh*
But seriously, healthcare/Obamacare is not central to the election. Not any more than Social Security, the War on Terror, immigration, or other major issues people care about.
The central issue is the economy.
if you say so.
Mrebo said:
But the main issue is still going to be the economy. That will be the issue that moves independent voters. Obamacare is unpopular. Obama doesn't make it the central issue. And Romney has some obvious trouble doing so, though he'll promise to repeal it. There's some advantage for Romney there, but not enough that it will be THE issue. It's the economy.
I didn't say that healthcare is THE issue. I simply said it was an important one. If you ask me, there is no issue that is THE issue. There many issues that will effect the election. The economy is definitely the biggest, though.
It's not a matter of "if you say so." If you think I'm wrong, make the argument. You admit the economy is definitely the biggest. And we can start arguing semantics about "biggest" vs "central." The biggest = central. I make a statement about the economy being the central issue and it seems like common sense to me. I'm not sure what you thought I meant by "central."
I go to google and I now find you polls. One poll says economy/jobs is most important issue to 52% of people in their vote for president. Healthcare/Obamacare is 7%. Nothing else comes close to economy. Another poll: what is most important issue facing country. 48% say economy jobs; 5% healthcare. Another poll: 53% economy; 14% healthcare.
These polls indicate that the economy is THE issue. It is far and away the biggest issue. Healthcare is one of several issues on people's minds but not far above fuel costs and family values.
Again, healthcare is not central to this election. The economy is.
Fine, I was wrong. the economy is a central and the biggest issue of the election. But I still believe that healthcare is big a issue.
I also believe healthcare is a big issue, even if it won't decide the election.
Mrebo said:
Mrebo said:
Mrebo said:
Think right now of Romney's flip flops, Warbler. How many come to mind? I'm willing to bet not many. I challenge anyone to think of the flip flops. We can go and google them, of course, but believing something without knowledge is another matter. I'm willing to make this bet not because I think you're dumb or dishonest, but because most of Romney's flip flops have been slight, ambiguous, or only really troubling to conservatives (in other words, not that memorable).
Warbler said:
*sigh* I guess it's video time again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9njHHyRI7g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyp2QIGejq4
Emphasis added.
so?
So you missed (and proved) my point. Sorry for saying so in this instance, but that's what happened. You couldn't just list even 2 or 3 flip flops off the top of your head that trouble you. If we want to find a video, we can do so. We can discuss the merits of the alleged flip-flops. Like the one of Romney liking/not-liking Reagan (omg, what a flip flop). We definitely can't trust Romney if he is willing to flipflop on Reagan!
I could have listed them, it was just easier to quote myself and thereby repost the two videos.
But I was asking for a specific reason. That it is easier to find your earlier post and quote it rather than quickly name a few seems to indicate I'm right that they're not memorable.
Mrebo said:
Mrebo said:
Mrebo said:
But when you hear about them, it confirms the narrative offered in the media that Romney is a flip-flopper.
He IS a flip-flopper.
I never denied it.
you tried to downplay it. you inferred that the whole flip-flop thing was invented and or exaggerated by the media.
The media has exaggerated the degree to which Romney has flip flopped. Your first video contains mostly music and snide out-of-context remarks, while actually only covering a handful of issues. Some are misrepresented. The only two issues in that video on which Romney unquestionably flipped are abortion and global warming. Well there's the Reagan one too, I guess.
what about healthcare? First he creates his Romneycare and now is against Obamacare. That sure seems like a flip flop to me.
They are two different laws. Romney never said he supported Obamacare. In the first video, Romney was shown saying he's glad Obama was including exchanges, like he had in Romneycare. There was no flip flop shown. Yet you believe there was, which was part of my point.
Romney has proudly stood by Romneycare, including the mandate in that law. So no flip flop there either. He has differentiated Romneycare from Obamacare by saying that he doesn't support imposing the same exact law on all 50 states. That is a valid principle. Just because a person thinks something works for the state of MA, doesn't mean he thinks it will work in every state. Romney did once say Romneycare should be a "model for the nation." But that does not mean he wanted it as a national law or that it should be adopted wholesale in every state. He clearly thought the exchanges were a good idea, even at the national level, but exchanges have not been a controversial point in the bill.
In summary, Obamacare and Romneycare, while substantially similar, are two different laws. Romney never supported Obamacare, Romney still supports Romneycare. Romney has given valid federalist reasons for distinguishing the two. Politifact rates the claim in that video mostly false.
Again, I wanted to know which flip flops were memorable for you, informing your thoughts.
That Romney's law looks a lot like Obama's law and Romney supports one and not the other is not a flip flop.
Mrebo said:
Mrebo said:
Mrebo said:
Ultimately, either Obama or Romney is going to be president in 2013. Counting flip flops doesn't account for much.
funny how it mattered so much in 2004.
I tried to explain that to you. Stop trying to atone for your votes in 2004.
I am not trying to atone for my vote in 2004, and I didn't agree with your explanation.
btw I think you meant vote not votes, I only voted for Kerry once in 2004.
Perhaps you did only vote once ;)
?
A joke, Mr. Warbler!
Mrebo said:
Mrebo said:
Mrebo said:
And even with the assistance of google, it strikes me that Obama has flipped much more.
yeah . . . right . . . sure . . .
Convincing argument. If there is no desire to make an argument or at least be non-dismissive, please feel free to cut this exchange short.
well at least didn't say what I originally was going to say. it is an 8 letter word beginning with b and ending with t. It is abbreviated to two letters most of the time.
Seriously, you actually think that Obama has flip flopped more than Romney? really? care to show proof of that?
I would refer you to my extensive list a page or two back for Obama's flips. And add in the pot one which I don't think I had included. I guess to compare we could add up the named flips in your videos (despite my contention they're not all really flips). I have a sneaking suspicion just based on this unscientific method that Obama will have more.
and I have sneaking suspicion that you are wrong.
My suspicions are sneakier than your suspicions.
... Wow ... that was a long post....
BUT IT CAN BE MADE EVEN LONGER!!!
greenpenguino said:
TV's Frink said:
Leonardo said:
greenpenguino said:
TV's Frink said:
greenpenguino said:
TV's Frink said:
RedFive said:
Davnes007 said:
TV's Frink said:
RedFive said:
Davnes007 said:
TV's Frink said:
greenpenguino said:
win
^This
+1
I concur.
Needs the colars fixed.
fixed.
Fixed.
TV's Frink said:
Leonardo said:
The colonel said:
Alright, stop that, stop that. It's silly. It's really silly. It started with a nice picture about a very very very very tall building and a white rabbit, but it's gotten far too silly. I think the readers are tired of scrolling on their mouse wheels to skip this picture. Now, I for one love little rabbits, especially white ones, cause they're cute little furry creatures, although I've heard some of them can be quite vicious indeed... But skyscrapers get really annoying really fast, and this particular picture has long lost its novelty.
So, I would advise everyone to get back to posting Random Pictures, this is the Random Pictures thread, not the "Skyscraper and bunny" thread, otherwise I'll have to ask the thread to be closed.
...... Get on with it!
doubleKO said:
GODZILLA WANTS MORE BUILDINGS!!
greenpenguino said:
Would you like a Jelly Baby?
Bingowings said:
Bingowings said:
:D