Nice call, Warbler — Page 3

Warbler said:

then I guess we will never agree on this.   I like my Spock logical and unemotional.    I am too much of an old school Trek fan to be changed on this. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BNofZkWqWM

Warbler said:

Quinto's Spock > Nimoy's 2009 Spock?   Sorry  but no way could any Quinto Spock could be >  any Nimoy Spock, even  Nimoy's 2009 spock. 

I respectfully disagree.

Nimoy's 2009 Spock was the most unSpock-like Spock impersonation I have ever seen.  Quinto's was spot on the money by comparison.

Nobody thought to cut Spock's emotional reactions when that footage was incorporated into "The Menagerie". I never had a problem accepting that Spock might be a little less stoic earlier in his career.

I suppose Spock was still "in development" during "Mudd's Women" and "The Enemy Within" too.

What sort of logical unemotional being regularly trades barbs and insults with Leonard H. McCoy, who is possibly the most illogical emotional being in the universe? ;)

Warbler said:

timdiggerm said:

Warbler said:

SilverWook said:

Warbler said:

the only real problem I had with the 2009 movie was the Spock/Uhura relationship.  It seems very out of character for a logical and unemotional Vulcan. 

Half Vulcan.

again with the half Vulcan stuff.   From what I know, Vulcans naturally have emotions.  They become logical and unemotional through training and discipline.  Therefore, since Spock when through the training and discipline, the fact that he is half human is meaningless. 

On the biological level, it may or may not be important. But on the psychological level, it is. He's always known that he's half-human, and thus has some amount of curiosity about his emotions, given that one of his parents doesn't repress. He wants to repress like other Vulcans... but sometimes he wonders.

but would he really wonder to the point of having a romantic relationship?

Well that's the question, isn't it?

timdiggerm said:

SilverWook said:

Uhura was flirting with Spock in "The Man Trap". That scene was cut from syndication prints for decades.

true, but they never ended up in a relationship. 

And Vulcan was never destroyed either. This right here is an alternate timeline. The attraction is there, as the characters are mostly still themselves, but differing events result in differing outcomes.

the relationship with Uhura clearly started before Vulcan was destroyed.   I also somehow don't see how the destruction of Vulcan would cause Spock to abandon his Vulcan heritage of logic by having a romantic relationship.  If anything, I think the destruction of Vulcan would do the opposite.   I would think the destruction of Vulcan would make Spock to want to be more Vulcan then ever before.   He'd be one of the few Vulcans left, and he'd want the Vulcan heritage culture preserved. 

Yes, I can see how the differing timeline can cause Spock to be different, but is this the Spock we really want?   A Spock that would engage in romance?   I'm sorry I but I prefer the original Spock.   I like my Spock logical and and unemotional. 

I'm not saying that the destruction of Vulcan caused any of this. As soon as the Romulans show up and destroy the Kelvin, the universe starts to differ. That was my only point here.

timdiggerm said:

SilverWook said:

Spock seemed kind of emotional, and even smiled in "The Cage".

at that time, they were still developing the character.  

Clearly you've never run into the fans who rationalize every bizarre inconsistency in TOS into canon. I can talk about this if you want.

please do.   

So, in TOS, the crew of the Enterprise is shown as having that Delta-Swoosh on their shirts, and other Federation (if a particular episode is even using that term) crews have different emblems. Cut tot the movies, a decade later, and that delta-swoosh is everywhere. In fact, it's the logo of all Starfleet. Now, one could suppose that this was the new canon, as it makes a lot of sense for all Starfleet to have one logo, and TOS's inconsistencies are to be ignored... or you could suppose that all Starfleet decided to adopt the Enterprise's emblem. For some reason, the latter is considered canon.

In Trek09, in the opening sequence, we see the USS Kelvin, before any timeline-changes take place, existing in (until the Romulans appear) the same timeline as TOS. And the crew of the Kelvin have on their shirts... The Delta-Swoosh. Now, one could suppose that they're finally going the logical route and deciding that was always Starfleet's logo and TOS is just an early inconsistency (see: Spock's emotions in The Cage?)... or you could claim that the Kelvin's emblem was passed on to the Enterprise for whatever reason in TOS and was made the emblem of all Starfleet a bit earlier in the new timeline, in memory of its destruction, blah blah blah blah blah...

Guess which one I've actually seen argued?

Bingowings said:

They are just stuffy Victorian dads with pointy ears and bad hair cuts who allow themselves to go on a murderous rampage every eight years of the long adult life.

This might be the first time I've ever agreed with Bingo.

Well, considering Star Trek:  Enterprise still went with the whole individual ships having individual assignment patches route when the mirror universe crew finds the Defiant or Valiant or whatever, I'd say it's pretty damn hard to figure that the official stance had retconned that out of existence.

Anyway, I never had a problem with Spock.  He was one of the few highlights of that movie.  It was Kirk that constantly pissed me the fuck off.  And the fact that he went from suspended cadet to captain of the flagship in the span of an hour shifts the movie from good time implausiblity to eye-rolling what the fuckery.

So... are we trying to do new things with these characters, or are we just trying to get them to exactly where they were in the original series as soon as possible?  Choose a direction, guys, because waffling somewhere in the middle led to all sorts of nonsensical screw-ups.  I'd much rather have had a completely true to canon movie or a completely rebooted movie than this lukewarm compromise.

DuracellEnergizer said:

I really need to see the original series. Rubber foreheads aside, this sounds like a fun series worth watching.

It totally is. It's a really groovy show

Rubber foreheads? You're thinking of the wrong Trek. ;)

DuracellEnergizer said:

I really need to see the original series. Rubber foreheads aside, this sounds like a fun series worth watching.

You're more likely to get really cheesy 1960s sets.

Anchorhead said:

Warbler said:

all those emotional outbursts can be explained by a virus, a poison from a plant, and Pon Farr.

His emotional outburst in the 2009 film is also explained.  In fact, it's at his own request that it's caused.

 

What about the one at the beginning of the film with lil' Spock?

Vulcan toughs: Hey Spocky-wocky.  You're dumb!
lil' Spock: Your current attempts to elicit an emotional response from me are illogical, as your previous 64.8 attempts were.
Vulcan toughs: Your mom is dumb.
lil' Spock: Why I oughtta! 
*Biff*  *BAM!* *POW!*

timdiggerm said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

I really need to see the original series. Rubber foreheads aside, this sounds like a fun series worth watching.

You're more likely to get really cheesy 1960s sets.

 

Less cheesy than Lost In Space. ;)

I think Enterprise more than proved the original set designs hold up pretty well.

Gaffer Tape said:

It was Kirk that constantly pissed me the fuck off.  And the fact that he went from suspended cadet to captain of the flagship in the span of an hour shifts the movie from good time implausiblity to eye-rolling what the fuckery.

So... are we trying to do new things with these characters, or are we just trying to get them to exactly where they were in the original series as soon as possible?  Choose a direction, guys, because waffling somewhere in the middle led to all sorts of nonsensical screw-ups.  I'd much rather have had a completely true to canon movie or a completely rebooted movie than this lukewarm compromise.

Yes, yes... To Gaffer Tape you listen...

You expressed my thoughts exactly.

How much time passes between the final battle with Shinzon and Kirk getting the big chair? (The ship needed some patching up.) IIRC, Kirk was about the youngest fellow to make starship Captain in the original timeline.

Not to mention Shinzon wiped out a good chunk of the fleet based on all the shattered hulks orbiting Vulcan. I don't think anyone else made it of that slaughter alive.

Luke Skywalker went from farmboy on a backwater planet to Rebel hero who blew up the Death Star in only a few days. ;)