You to factor in foreign grosses though. Even if it doesn't make back it's money doemstically it still has overseas markets. If you ask me, I think Lucasfilm is just going to keep rolling on with their original plan. I also doubt that they really expected TPM3D to be a Lion King level success. AOTC will definitely be a problem for them, but I doubt they'll do anything other than agressive marketing.
Of course, what they should do, is re-edit the film to make it better.
Yes, overseas markets factor in, but they don't come free. Marketing, distribution and other costs like subtitles mean that it's not pure profit. The rule of thumb is usually that a movie only breaks even domestically when its gross doubles its budget because of marketing and distribution costs, and those ratios increase in foreign territories because of the extra export work. And even with that, the film hasn't been popular overseas. In fact, as someone pointed out, only something like 5000 people in the entire country of Finland went to see it. In Turkey it made $350,000, in Iceland $30,000, in Hong Kong $200,000, in Portugal $130,000. It's done okay in the usual countries like UK, Germany, France and Australia, so they will see maybe an additional 5 or 6 million in combined profit there, but otherwise when you factor the export costs it doesn't look like there is much money being made, and it's definitiely lost money in many smaller territories. Like I said, a small profit has been made overall, but only a small one. Lucas said they were going to cancel the sequels if this "doesn't work", and it hasn't worked, it may not be a flop if you measure that term by loss or gain, but whatever gains it's made have been rather small, and that's a shocking disappointment for something in the Star Wars brand. That brand was once thought of as golden, untouchable, on a pedestal few if any other brands had, and now it's a struggle to just make money off of it.
zombie84 said:
[....] no, the hype did not kill TPM, did not cause the criticism or the unfair expectations. Hype, in fact, was the one thing the film had going for it. Episode I minus the hype gets you a flop, with the same bad reviews but this time barely any money and barely any audience.
That is the crux of the issue, and sums up, I believe, the truth of the debate, "If people didn't like them, they wouldn't have been hits!" Now we see what the movies do sans hype, and it's like a control experiment: they do nothing.
I read in an article (I think linked to here, a few pages back), that at the time of TPM's re-release, AOTC was already half done, and so that adds still more certainty to its re-release. But I will be shocked if AOTC hits even 30m dom.
DominicCobb said:
[....]
Of course, what they should do, is re-edit the film to make it better.
Funnily, I think that if LFL would hire Adywan and have him work some magic on TPM and AOTC - he does better CG work and cooler improvements than all of ILM put together at this point - they could have probably amped up the business $10m or so, just because of the curiosity draw. Instead, they just used the butt-ugly, DNR'd to hell, Blu-Ray master, which had no significant changes (aside from the removal of the Don Rickles Yoda puppet, which I thought was a good change.)
We tend to call it Creepy Puppet Yoda(tm) around here. ;)
Where were you in '77?
zombie84 said:
[....] that's a shocking disappointment for something in the Star Wars brand. That brand was once thought of as golden, untouchable, on a pedestal few if any other brands had, and now it's a struggle to just make money off of it.
Some day soon....the truth of the above quote will make me sad.
I remember being said in '08, when the horrid TCW flopped - limped in and out of theaters with nobody caring, and the few people who did see it hating it. As a SW fan, I suddenly felt foolish and lonely. I felt like, "Is this what's become of my passion: not even good enough to be the target of jokes anymore, but just this wretched, propaganda cartoon that nobody even cares about?"
I should feel similarly with TPM 3D's failure, but I'm currently so angry at the LFL shills at TheForce.net that I almost feel happy about its floppage. But I have a friend in Chicago who went to see the midnight showing, expecting a large crowd? He said it was empty - as in, a dozen people. That SW has devolved to this is indeed sad.
If only LFL would hire me, I know what to do with the brand! Yeah, right. Everybody's got solutions. It seems to me that Dave Filoni is the current point man for the SW brand, and the creepy little dude is running it into the ground, both commericaly and artistically. The 'Darth Plagueis' and Rinzler's 'Making of' books might be the lone worthwhile bearers of the "Star Wars" brand name since ROTS.
SilverWook said:
We tend to call it Creepy Puppet Yoda(tm) around here. ;)
Hey, I like calling it the Don Rickles puppet, more. Do you guys demand conformity of newbies (although I'm not that much of one, really).
I'm only joking. Call him whatever you like.
Your Filoni obsession is starting to worry me though. ;)
Where were you in '77?
SilverWook said:
Your Filoni obsession is starting to worry me though. ;)
Just take digs where I can. It's not so much him that bothers me - though he does appear to be a phony and, uh,....to not like women, let' say, but that's his business - it's the fact that (a) TCW has taken over SW and changed it in tone and in spirit, and (b) the fact that many of the jackasses at TFN act like they're good buddies with him and really giving him as much reverence as they give Lucas (that's no exaggeration). So there's a motive of (trying to) slay golden calfs.
When you get into an argument at TFN, and that whole hivemind there swarms on you - and NOBODY comes to your defense, no matter how well-reasoned your arguments or how polite you are - you really begin to bear down on whatever stance you take. So, like, back when TCW was released, I got in some big arguments about it with the TFN posters and they just swarmed on me with hate for my heresy and simply observing that it was a flop. I've kind of been intermittently obsessed with mocking Filoni and TCW since then.
But, in complete objectivity and seriousness, I do think it's very sad what's come of the SW brand, and I think creepy Filoni's dictums are largely (not entirely) to blame. I thought ROTS was fantastic, and had high hopes for the future. Instead....well....just look at it now.
DavidBrennan said:
Any people with distaste for the current state of the SW "brand" or LFL in general feel any vindication by the floppage of TPM 3D?
It was nigh impossible to not see ads for it on Cartoon Network. Other cable channels were pretty saturated with commercials the last week before release.
Where were you in '77?
SilverWook said:
It was nigh impossible to not see ads for it on Cartoon Network. Other cable channels were pretty saturated with commercials the last week before release.
That was my sampling, too (although I don't watch the Cartoon Network, so I can't speak to that channel in particular). It was EVERYWHERE. I mean, the thing had a Super Bowl commercial, which should pretty much say it all.
That's a cool million or two right there? I doubt we will ever know how much they spent in total on all the advertising though.
The one thing in Lucasfilm's favor is they didn't have to make costly new film prints.
Where were you in '77?
SilverWook said:
That's a cool million or two right there? I doubt we will ever know how much they spent in total on all the advertising though.
The one thing in Lucasfilm's favor is they didn't have to make costly new film prints.
This year Super Bowl ads ran $3.5m each.
With the exception of some IMAX 70mm prints, I think that all 3D movies are now all digital.
I would like to know its advertising budget and what LFL's expectations were. Given the success of the '97 SEs and then TLK and BatB just months before it - neither of which probably had half as much advertising as TPM - I'm betting they were thinking something like 75m, with a floor of 50 and ceiling of 100. But, really, I'm just making that up, as I have no real clue.
DavidBrennan said:
(aside from the removal of the Don Rickles Yoda puppet, which I thought was a good change.
Aw, I liked Creepy Puppet Yoda.
"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars
DominicCobb said:
Of course, what they should do, is re-edit the film to make it "better".
Fixed.
"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars
Mielr said:
DavidBrennan said:
Any people with distaste for the current state of the SW "brand" or LFL in general feel any vindication by the floppage of TPM 3D?
I do. And even if it ends up making a profit, I'll still consider it a "flop" because the standards have been set higher by the franchise, tarnished or not.
As far as the marketing goes, I must be watching the wrong channels because I think I saw a total of ONE tv commercial for TPM3D and only one or two posters at bus stops. :-?
Being a year behind on my Wittertainment and hearing Mark pontificate about the "death of the 3-D," the vindictive bastard in me is hoping that the fad will be in its death throes by the end of the AOTC relelease and LFL won't get to the OT and will lose big time. But the realist in me knows that the OT will do gangbusters in the theaters, even with the Amazon backlash and people knowing full well it's not the original film, and will just be another nail in the OOT's coffin.
“What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.”
Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death
A silent movie just won the Oscar for best picture, so there's still hope this "talking pictures" fad will also die a long overdue death. ;)
Where were you in '77?
SilverWook said:
A silent movie just won the Oscar for best picture, so there's still hope this "talking pictures" fad will also die a long overdue death. ;)
it's not totally silent:
http://hamptonroads.com/2012/01/artist-lighthearted-entertaining-and-mostly-silent
-
The film has a few oddities and anachronisms. To begin with, it’s a silent movie about the birth of talkies, and that wouldn’t have been a subject for a silent flick.
The film is set between 1927 and 1932 but uses a couple of songs – Benny Goodman’s “Sing, Sing, Sing” and “Pennies From Heaven” – that weren’t written until later.
But be warned that it takes a different kind of concentration to watch a silent film and that “The Artist” is not totally silent. There are a few sound effects, such as a shocker when a glass tinkles, and a few spoken words.
later
-1
[no GOUT in CED?-> GOUT CED]
Mike O said:
Mielr said:
DavidBrennan said:
Any people with distaste for the current state of the SW "brand" or LFL in general feel any vindication by the floppage of TPM 3D?
I do. And even if it ends up making a profit, I'll still consider it a "flop" because the standards have been set higher by the franchise, tarnished or not.
As far as the marketing goes, I must be watching the wrong channels because I think I saw a total of ONE tv commercial for TPM3D and only one or two posters at bus stops. :-?
Being a year behind on my Wittertainment and hearing Mark pontificate about the "death of the 3-D," the vindictive bastard in me is hoping that the fad will be in its death throes by the end of the AOTC relelease and LFL won't get to the OT and will lose big time. But the realist in me knows that the OT will do gangbusters in the theaters, even with the Amazon backlash and people knowing full well it's not the original film, and will just be another nail in the OOT's coffin.
The strange thing is... I think that the negative feelings about Star Wars are beginning to spread to the general public. Sitting through TPM in a theater again really showed how bad of a film it was... I've never seen so many people sleeping through a midnight premier or a 3D film.
I think that, combined with such offensive changes as "Nooooo!" have forced even casual Star Wars fans to be on guard. I would assume more and more people are going to be against large scale experiences like Theater viewings, simply to avoid overshadowing their fond memories of watching the films in the Theater, while they were still pure and great.
Preferred Saga:
1,2: Numeraljoker extended
3: L8wrtr
4,6-9: Hal9000
5: Adywan
nightstalkerpoet said:
The strange thing is... I think that the negative feelings about Star Wars are beginning to spread to the general public. Sitting through TPM in a theater again really showed how bad of a film it was... I've never seen so many people sleeping through a midnight premier or a 3D film.
I think that, combined with such offensive changes as "Nooooo!" have forced even casual Star Wars fans to be on guard. I would assume more and more people are going to be against large scale experiences like Theater viewings, simply to avoid overshadowing their fond memories of watching the films in the Theater, while they were still pure and great.
Yeah, I agree that there the trajectory of the general public regarding Star Wars is now to just shut it off and relegate it to something from the past.
With the uneven PT, the embarrassing TCW, the shoddiness of so much of the EU, and more, there's just a sense that Star Wars is no longer this true cultural centerpiece, but just this quirky thing in some odd cultural corner of bizarre relics. The OT has been largely exempt from that, but with LFL's continued retconning and alterations, I think that this stigma is bleeding over to that, too.
I mean, whoever's responsible for the TCW movie and the 3D release should be outright canned. Pink slip in their mailbox, gone. Those are monumental failures and true embarrassments to the Star Wars brand name.
It's funny, because I was listening to the ForceCast episode about the very solid EU book, Darth Plagueis. And even there the host was openly lamenting to the head of the LFL/Random House partnership that the EU was becoming way too self-referential and that he had just turned off from it (except Darth Plagueis, which he praised effusively). That is a hard core Star Wars fan getting a chance to talk to the head of the EU....and he openly says that he hasn't been an interested customer in years.
Why is the Random House EU guy still employed there or does he have any power? Wasn't that series of Jedi Outcast books a marketing catastrophe? Weren't the TCW movie, the cartoon on TNT, and all these other things also huge failures? Why are these people still employed at LFL and controlling the Star Wars brand? Fire those incompetent fuckers.
I don't think the Clone Wars has been a disaster at all, with the exception of the film. By releasing it in theaters, George broke a barrier between Star Wars the entertainment machine, and Star Wars the Film Franchise - this paved the way for the 3D novelty releases.
The one problem I have with TCW is that it takes away what little life the PT had - for all the complaints, and slight inconsistancies, when I watched RotS, I remember feeling a sense of completion. That feeling is kind of diminished.
However, I personally can't place blame - There are kids who LOVE TCW. I personally enjoyed the 3D conversion of TPM more than without it. And we live in a society built on capitalism, where you have to keep at it to continue to earn and make a mark.
If anything, I believe that rather than bitching about everything LFL does, we need to start a general campaign to change copyright laws, forcing film companies to submit a digital, lossless copy of every film ever made or that will be made in the future. Beyond that, not only should the original version be made available, but also any version that is made commercially available. With that in mind, Star Wars would need to be provided "Pre-ANH", with the crawl change, 97SE, 2004SE, BluRay, and then 3D. Stored Digitally, this wouldn't take up much space. And the Library of Congress would possess all of these films... I believe this law change could be pushed through as a "Protection of future inherited public properties"
Preferred Saga:
1,2: Numeraljoker extended
3: L8wrtr
4,6-9: Hal9000
5: Adywan
DavidBrennan said:
It seems to me that Dave Filoni is the current point man for the SW brand, and the creepy little dude is running it into the ground, both commericaly and artistically.
DavidBrennan said:
Weren't the TCW movie, the cartoon on TNT, and all these other things also huge failures? Why are these people still employed at LFL and controlling the Star Wars brand?
Where do you come up with this stuff? Dave Filoni is the only thing saving the Clone Wars. He was a huge Star Wars fan before Lucasfilm hired him. The memorized a good chunk of the EU type of fan. He has good ideas and knows what makes Star Wars awesome. Unfortunately George has taken a huge interest in the show and the majority of the weird crap you see pop up in the show comes straight from George. Thankfully Dave is there to tone down a lot of that and the episodes that come straight from the writers and Dave are fantastic. Secondly, there was never any TNT show. TNT was a potential network to air the Clone Wars but the Cartoon Network picked it up instead.
If the only thing you've seen of the Clone Wars was that crap movie you have no idea what you're talking about.
I hear that the TCW TV series is doing gangbusters anyway.
“What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.”
Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death
CN doesn't hesitate much in killing off shows that don't pull in the numbers, or sell enough toys.
Where were you in '77?
Filoni and the Clone Wars are the only thing keeping the franchise alive. It's the best Star Wars stuff since 1980, and it's all because of Filoni--and I hate the EU. Calling the Clone War show EU is almost disrespectful to it, because its mostly pretty great.
The film was awful though. Truely, one of the worst things I have ever seen, without exaggeration. How could you have such a contrast between the show and the film? Two words.
George Lucas.
He basically was the man behind the film, and Filoni is the man behind the show.
The more bewildering question is how did I ever watch the show when I didn't even want to watch the film and it turned out to be worse than I feared? Word of mouth, I guess. That show certainly has to work AGAINST the Star Wars brand--"no really, I know it's star wars, but this one is GOOD."
Although, I think the prequels make it look better than it is. If the prequels were awesome, people would not appreciate it as much.
