Collaborative Fanediting: An ROTJ Proposition (BACK ON TRACK WITH EMANSWFAN AT THE HELM--SEE POST 1488 OR OP FOR A LINK!) — Page 55

PPS (from my last reply on last page):  But to be fair, now that think about it.... Anakin was already called Vader when he dies in EPisode 3...

Oh, the headache continue......

TMBTM said:

But to be fair, now that think about it.... Anakin was already called Vader when he dies in EPisode 3...

Oh, the headache continue......

I don't follow you.

Captain Antilles said:

TMBTM said:

But to be fair, now that think about it.... Anakin was already called Vader when he dies in EPisode 3...

Oh, the headache continue......

I don't follow you.

nevermind, just read my last reply before this one. It was just a useless added line. 

fishmanlee said:

Is there much a difference between 860 and 900 years old though?

Enough for Yoda to look very different in the PT than the OT.

Regarding whether Vader should be Hayden of Sebastian it comes down to whether he should look old or young, not whether the audience can tell that the unVadered actor is meant to be the guy from the suit, because if you watch 6 films then both actors are recognisable, and if you only watch the OT then only Shaw is recognisable.  However, if Anakin was meant to be shown as a young version of himself why did Lucas not cast a young actor at the time.  He had already cast Shaw specifically for the force ghost.  This isn't something where the excuse 'the technology wasn't available' works so it seems that instead it was done purely as an afterthought to try to drag aspects of the PT into the OT.  If he had included Hayden but aged him to look as old as Shaw did then fine, at least that still follows the original plan, but to make him young just because that how he looked last time he was good and we have to be able to make that link ourselves, well that seems to underestimate the audience a little bit in my opinion. 

Johannus said:

fishmanlee said:

Is there much a difference between 860 and 900 years old though?

Enough for Yoda to look very different in the PT than the OT.

Regarding whether Vader should be Hayden of Sebastian it comes down to whether he should look old or young, not whether the audience can tell that the unVadered actor is meant to be the guy from the suit, because if you watch 6 films then both actors are recognisable, and if you only watch the OT then only Shaw is recognisable.  However, if Anakin was meant to be shown as a young version of himself why did Lucas not cast a young actor at the time.  He had already cast Shaw specifically for the force ghost.  This isn't something where the excuse 'the technology wasn't available' works so it seems that instead it was done purely as an afterthought to try to drag aspects of the PT into the OT.  If he had included Hayden but aged him to look as old as Shaw did then fine, at least that still follows the original plan, but to make him young just because that how he looked last time he was good and we have to be able to make that link ourselves, well that seems to underestimate the audience a little bit in my opinion. 

Just to play devil's advocate, I'll answer your question. =P

Lucas did not cast a young actor at the time because that young actor would not necessarily have been recognizable to audiences members. As I said earlier, Sebastian Shaw is the only actor we see play Anakin in ROTJ prior to his appearance as a force ghost. If another actor had played the ghost, some audience members might not have made the connection and realized that he was meant to be Anakin. With the prequels, however, the connection is easily made (again, assuming a "whole saga" approach with a 1-6 viewing order).

Plus, at the time, it probably made more sense to just cast one actor than to cast two! =)

My beef with Shaw is that when we see him, he's quite disfigured. He doesn't look like the ghost Shaw. OT watchers would, understandably, be confused if they saw a younger guy when they know Vader was older, but, if Anakin's ghost is moved to the funeral pyre, it would be much more obvious that the ghost is supposed to be Anakin.

Additionally, whenever Anakin (the jedi) is spoken of in the OT, it is, of course, implied that they are talking about someone younger than Vader. If you get my meaning here, Luke/the audience knew that Anakin became Vader when he was younger. They don't know exactly when, but if they saw Hayden, it would be easy to assume that that was Anakin before he turned to the dark side. 

timdiggerm said:

Has anyone actually heard of people being confused by Ghost Shaw?

Never in my life. I don't see how anyone could be confused by it at all. I don't see how anyone could be confused by either.

Do you think we should swap Alec Guiness for Ewan Mc#greggor and the Yoda Puppet from TPM at the end as force ghosts?

I've never really understood the reasoning that Obi-wan and Yoda ought to appear as idealized projections like Hayden-Anakin did. There are obvious crispy and darkish factors affecting Anakin that don't apply to the others. 

It would seem established that once you become one with the Force and gain the ability to appear as an apparition, it is restricted as you appeared when you died. Not a problem for Yoda and Obi-wan! They have all their limbs! So either way, unless you want a horrifying vision of a reanimated, disarticulated corpse bidding Luke farewell (which would follow established "canon", and morbidly make the most sense...), there HAS to be an idealized, kind of wish-fulfillment ghost-projection of Anakin.

But which makes the most sense? A vision of what Anakin *could* have been, but never actually was? A kind of mystical plastic surgery? Is this perhaps more vain than the Force should be? Or do you go the route of a vision of what Anakin *has* been, the Force reaching back to the "good man who was destroyed" (debatable though it may be exactly how "good" he really was)? Or is that still the Force appealing to Anakin's vanity?

Personally, I prefer the idea of going back to a younger version of himself. But it's not a slam dunk case by any stretch.

The Concierge said:

I've never really understood the reasoning that Obi-wan and Yoda ought to appear as idealized projections like Hayden-Anakin did. There are obvious crispy and darkish factors affecting Anakin that don't apply to the others. 

It would seem established that once you become one with the Force and gain the ability to appear as an apparition, it is restricted as you appeared when you died. Not a problem for Yoda and Obi-wan! They have all their limbs! So either way, unless you want a horrifying vision of a reanimated, disarticulated corpse bidding Luke farewell (which would follow established "canon", and morbidly make the most sense...), there HAS to be an idealized, kind of wish-fulfillment ghost-projection of Anakin.

But which makes the most sense? A vision of what Anakin *could* have been, but never actually was? A kind of mystical plastic surgery? Is this perhaps more vain than the Force should be? Or do you go the route of a vision of what Anakin *has* been, the Force reaching back to the "good man who was destroyed" (debatable though it may be exactly how "good" he really was)? Or is that still the Force appealing to Anakin's vanity?

Personally, I prefer the idea of going back to a younger version of himself. But it's not a slam dunk case by any stretch.

Very well put!

For me the Anakin head-swap is one of if not the most awful changes Lucas ever did to OT.

How Luke would relate in any way to the smirking stranger in the current SE boggles this mind. The observation that he is wearing Shaw's body is downright creepy too.

If you want to have a young Anakin at the end of film he should appear as Seb Shaw first because this is the face of Luke's dad as he imagines it.

The old man he saw under the mask but restored to humanity.

You could then have the forest change as if a door had opened somewhere between the trees and bathed the forest in white light and then all three ghosts could then become young and walk off to the light where in the distance Padme is waiting for them.

Luke finally has a memory of his mother and the two trilogies are united.

The forest could return to normal (as the vision was only seen from Luke's Force enhanced point of view) and Luke could then return to his living sister and friends. 

The Concierge said:

I've never really understood the reasoning that Obi-wan and Yoda ought to appear as idealized projections like Hayden-Anakin did. There are obvious crispy and darkish factors affecting Anakin that don't apply to the others. 

It would seem established that once you become one with the Force and gain the ability to appear as an apparition, it is restricted as you appeared when you died. Not a problem for Yoda and Obi-wan! They have all their limbs! So either way, unless you want a horrifying vision of a reanimated, disarticulated corpse bidding Luke farewell (which would follow established "canon", and morbidly make the most sense...), there HAS to be an idealized, kind of wish-fulfillment ghost-projection of Anakin.

But which makes the most sense? A vision of what Anakin *could* have been, but never actually was? A kind of mystical plastic surgery? Is this perhaps more vain than the Force should be? Or do you go the route of a vision of what Anakin *has* been, the Force reaching back to the "good man who was destroyed" (debatable though it may be exactly how "good" he really was)? Or is that still the Force appealing to Anakin's vanity?

Personally, I prefer the idea of going back to a younger version of himself. But it's not a slam dunk case by any stretch.

If you wanted to take the idea that the force ghost looks like the person when they died to be literal, then we would have to acknowledge that Ben should have appeared beheaded.  The only interpretation that is consistent within the OOT only, is that the ghost appears as remembered or idolized by the viewer.

gobalicious said:

The Concierge said:

I've never really understood the reasoning that Obi-wan and Yoda ought to appear as idealized projections like Hayden-Anakin did. There are obvious crispy and darkish factors affecting Anakin that don't apply to the others. 

It would seem established that once you become one with the Force and gain the ability to appear as an apparition, it is restricted as you appeared when you died. Not a problem for Yoda and Obi-wan! They have all their limbs! So either way, unless you want a horrifying vision of a reanimated, disarticulated corpse bidding Luke farewell (which would follow established "canon", and morbidly make the most sense...), there HAS to be an idealized, kind of wish-fulfillment ghost-projection of Anakin.

But which makes the most sense? A vision of what Anakin *could* have been, but never actually was? A kind of mystical plastic surgery? Is this perhaps more vain than the Force should be? Or do you go the route of a vision of what Anakin *has* been, the Force reaching back to the "good man who was destroyed" (debatable though it may be exactly how "good" he really was)? Or is that still the Force appealing to Anakin's vanity?

Personally, I prefer the idea of going back to a younger version of himself. But it's not a slam dunk case by any stretch.

If you wanted to take the idea that the force ghost looks like the person when they died to be literal, then we would have to acknowledge that Ben should have appeared beheaded.  The only interpretation that is consistent within the OOT only, is that the ghost appears as remembered or idolized by the viewer.

^^^^ This... especially idolised or as remembered by the viewer.... That is why Hayden makes no sense at all... Anyway enough said....  Perhaps the ghostbusters should show up at the end and do what they do best.

Not to interrupt the Anakin ghost argument too much, but I have a completely unrelated mock up video for everyone to see.  Its still got rough effects and no proper sound done yet but thought you might like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8HgrnDboOU

Johannus said:

Not to interrupt the Anakin ghost argument too much, but I have a completely unrelated mock up video for everyone to see.  Its still got rough effects and no proper sound done yet but thought you might like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8HgrnDboOU

"Boring conversation anyway"

I really like the lead up to the cruiser being destroyed... and I like the shots you used...  I'm still unsure about the cheesewire Deathstar laser idea I think the ship just needs to go Bang! like everything else that it fires at does.

I used an Old sfx for the alarm labelled Reggae horns fx worked reasonably well and will send you the sample if you like

Great work Johannus!

Going to get started on storming the deathstar today been really ill with a bad flu virus so not alot has happened this week so far but I will have somthing by next week hopefully.

Ronster said:

I'm still unsure about the cheesewire Deathstar laser idea I think the ship just needs to go Bang! like everything else that it fires at does.

I think that could probably be made into that kind of a shot, I just used the existing shot I had already made but it needs working on anyway because of the lazy masking I did on it so next time I get to it I'll try to make it explode on impact so to speak.  Other than that we would just need to decide on the music and record a couple of lines. 

I would quite like to have a raction shot from Lando too but I'm not sure if I can pinch an existing shot without taking it from somewhere it would be better suited so its not perfect but I was quite happy with it.  Thanks Ron.

Johannus said:

Ronster said:

I'm still unsure about the cheesewire Deathstar laser idea I think the ship just needs to go Bang! like everything else that it fires at does.

I think that could probably be made into that kind of a shot, I just used the existing shot I had already made but it needs working on anyway because of the lazy masking I did on it so next time I get to it I'll try to make it explode on impact so to speak.  Other than that we would just need to decide on the music and record a couple of lines. 

I would quite like to have a raction shot from Lando too but I'm not sure if I can pinch an existing shot without taking it from somewhere it would be better suited so its not perfect but I was quite happy with it.  Thanks Ron.

Just use the original footage of the secend Mon calamari cruiser being destroyed that is there already in movie for it's destruction... As a reaction to that you won't get much for Lando I don't think but the weird alien puppet bloke you'll find somthing in the lost rebels footage there are some shots in there where he looks quite worried and they did some floods flashing for effect and shakes to the cockpit but the audio is horrible.

Seems my 2nd new trial I set up has expired already of CS5 perhaps you can only do it once and thats it but I had it open and fully working but did nothing with it yet when I went to start it just now it says trial expired...

Try 1 more time re-installing and if this does not work then perhaps this is where it shall end for me or I find another compositing tool that I can get a free trial for.... Any suggestions?

Yeah I was trying to avoid using that shot so that it would expand the battle a little more by adding a new shot.  Also going to have a play around with adding some B-Wings next time I get chance so hopefully that will work.

DominicCobb said:

2. The biggest reason why I'm against it is that if Anakin doesn't turn into a ghost, it makes his redemption much more bittersweet. When ROTJ ends, Vader's dead and you're actually sad. Then, oh wait a minute, ROTJ is a happy movie, now Vader's a ghost too! Vader was really evil at one time. I feel there needs to be a consequence for that. Having him be dead, and unable to find life after life, would be a much more poignant end to the saga. I think that the Star Wars series is too serious to simply cast the over-happy ending off as part of the fantasy. My biggest beef with ROTJ (and I'm not alone here) is that the movie is way too happy. Vader is EVIL for almost 4 movies. Consequence is necessary. That's why they killed him. Also, it gives the final conversation between Luke and Vader MUCH MORE meaning. I mean honestly, think of that conversation and then think about how Luke and Vader can talk again whenever they want. 

I Think that actually would work a lot better at not only fixing the continuity problem but also to help tone down the sappy, everything's forgiven and we're all happy ending.

I'm missing a lot of the fun here lately.  As for Anakin, I honestly care somewhat less about whether it's Hayden or Sebastian.

Truly, I wonder what people think about the placing of Anakin's ghost at the end.  If we put the funeral at the end but intend to show any ghosts at all, it truly only makes sense to put Anakin at the end.  Of all the radical ideas people have supported, I don't think this is so radical at all.  It's logical and moving, IMO.  We already voted to put the funeral at the end, so why not include the ghost with it?  Maybe there is some merit of Bingowings' suggestion about an older Anakin morphing into a younger, but it's still not purely logical to me.

Please watch my rough cut including the scene to see what I mean.

http://www.4shared.com/video/DzIYUfHk/rotj_ideal_ending.html?

I also want to comment on Johannus's video: very interesting, and it captures the tension of men who know they are about to die.  I'm a bit iffy about the Mon Cal cruiser actually getting sliced by the laser, but overall the whole thing is a good rough cut.

PS I am certain some who wanted to vote have not taken the opportunity to do so at the new link, though I think they probably did use the old one (Ronster, that means you).  Please don't forget to vote using the new link.

These are the folks who are invited to vote; in bold are those who voted using the right link:

darth_ender

MrInsaneA

Ronster

DominicCobb

timdiggerm

ray_afraid

Harmy

Angel

ShepardCommander

fishmanlee

TV’s Frink

xhonzi

Bingowings

Jaitea

Sluggo

Ovan Marekal

Vladius

Captain Antilles

regularjoe

JLB_Tosche

GoodMusician

aalenfae

Johannus

emanswfan

Mrebo

XyZ

jonathan7

Wexter

ben_danger

SS4DarthPayne

daneditor

If your name isn't on this list but you voted, it probably means you used the wrong link.  Please use the correct one provided in the second PM you all received.  If you don't think you got it, let me know and I'll PM you the correct one.

Johannus said:

Not to interrupt the Anakin ghost argument too much, but I have a completely unrelated mock up video for everyone to see.  Its still got rough effects and no proper sound done yet but thought you might like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8HgrnDboOU

I really like how this idea is shaping up, but, along with what Ronster said about having the ship explode immediately, I think the shot of Madine spinning in his chair just before he says "may the force be with us" needs to be cut. It slows things down a bit, in my opinion.