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'Why the SW prequels are better than the OT' - article inside — Page 3

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TheBoost said:

I'll agree Padme and Annie talking about dictatorship in the grass is one of my favorite scenes in the whole PT. But it doesn't make up for "I hate sand" "Yoousa in bad doo doo" "Dont do it Anakin, I have the high ground" "Nooooooooooooooooo" or a slew of other cringe worthy scenes.

 sadly this scene is tainted by that stupid cow thingy that anakin 'surfed'.  one of 2 things that likely cost ILM the oscar.

the other problem I had with this scene is that it starts off sounding like 2 4th graders talking civics.  and its too 'wink' 'wink' 'nudge' 'nudge' (like when queen jamilla says "the day we believe democracy doesn;t work is the day we lose it").

I remember one fan had a great idea for a rewrite of this scene.  Was 10 years ago and never able to find it again, but it was something like this:

padme - sounds awful lot like a dictatorship

anakin - well if it works

anakin - we need someone like Qui-Gon

padme - qui-gon!?

anakin - yeah

padme is laughing - ok, i know you loved qui-gon, but you were just a kid back then- he was controversial and did a lot of things that weren't by the book.

anakin - doesn't matter, he got things done. thats all that counts.

it would have given us some insight how anakin and padme view things and how they feel about qui-gon.  we all thought it was a good idea - sure beats 'annie, annie, are you ok?'

of course this would have kinda contradicted the scene in ROTS were padme asks anakin to use his unsual friendship to influence palpatine and anakin yells at her saying she needs to make a senate motion like everyone else ;P

ROTS did have some clever political bits that were perfectly timed, despite all the idiocy of the PT.  and padme, of all people - a character that was nothing more than a uterus, had ironically the most clever line in the PT when she fretted "so this is how liberty dies...with thunderous applause"

OT was abundant with wit.  PT...not hardly :(

click here if lack of OOT got you down

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Am I being too harsh to assume the good bits were all Tom Stoppard?

UT! Imagine if he wrote the whole PT.

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xhonzi said:



danaan said:



xhonzi said:

danaan said:

So, Luke can't win by fighting, but he also can't avoid the fight! That's a very precise moral dilemma (which the PT, btw, ruins),



I'm sure I won't disagree with you, but please elaborate on this point.  What in the PT influences this moment in RotJ?



Well, the point in ROTJ is that IF Luke kills his father, strikes him down in anger, drawing upon the Dark side to fuel himself, THEN "his journey towards the Dark side is complete". I.e. IF a Jedi kills in anger, THEN he will become a darksider.

In AOTC, Anakin kills an ENTIRE village of sandpeople in anger (their guilt in his mother's death is irrelevant) and REMAINS a good guy. So, if Anakin can do that, why can't Luke kill his father and still be a good guy at the end of ROTJ. So, what the PT is telling us is that this wonderfully balanced finale is all mumbojumbo and that Luke should just shove his lightsaber in his dad's face and then what the old chuckling geezer in the gape. And then maybe flip them some badass comment...cuz, why not?


Oops.  Looks like I do disagree afterall.  I don't think this is the PT speaking (given that I am an ardent anti-PT guy) but I don't think the Emperor was exactly right when he said that to Luke.  I wrote this all out long hand years ago, so let me just direct you here:

<a href="http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Luke-VS-the-Emperor-What-if-Vader-hadnt-been-there/post/401848/#TopicPost401848"></a><a href="http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Luke-VS-the-Emperor-What-if-Vader-hadnt-been-there/post/401848/#TopicPost401848" target="_blank" title="originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Luke-VS-the-Emperor-What-if-Vader-hadnt-been-there/post/401848/#TopicPost401848"></a><a href="http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Luke-VS-the-Emperor-What-if-Vader-hadnt-been-there/post/401848/#TopicPost401848" target="_blank" title="originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Luke-VS-the-Emperor-What-if-Vader-hadnt-been-there/post/401848/#TopicPost401848">http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Luke-VS-the-Emperor-What-if-Vader-hadnt-been-there/post/401848/#TopicPost401848</a>

and here:

<a href="http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Luke-VS-the-Emperor-What-if-Vader-hadnt-been-there/post/403366/#TopicPost403366"></a><a href="http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Luke-VS-the-Emperor-What-if-Vader-hadnt-been-there/post/403366/#TopicPost403366" target="_blank" title="originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Luke-VS-the-Emperor-What-if-Vader-hadnt-been-there/post/403366/#TopicPost403366"></a><a href="http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Luke-VS-the-Emperor-What-if-Vader-hadnt-been-there/post/403366/#TopicPost403366" target="_blank" title="originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Luke-VS-the-Emperor-What-if-Vader-hadnt-been-there/post/403366/#TopicPost403366">http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Luke-VS-the-Emperor-What-if-Vader-hadnt-been-there/post/403366/#TopicPost403366</a>

The long of the short of it is this: I don't believe the path to the Dark Side is that short.

Yoda said that once you indulge the Dark Side, forever would it direct your path.  He didn't say that you became a mindless zombie and threw away all of your previous convinctions after one puff.

*cough*Revenge of the Sith*cough*


So, in your interpretation of the OT, regardless of the PT, Luke could have killed his father and still walked away the good guy?

In my opinion, this is a fundamental misunderstanding of the message of SW, and there is nothing inside the actual movie to support this. In fact, all evidence supports my interpretation - Yoda, Ben AND Palpatine all warn Luke about giving in to the Dark side. Add to that how Vader is acting like a slave to the Dark side: "You don't understand the power of the Dark side; I MUST obey my master". I.e. once you're the sway of the Dark side, you really don't have all that much free will to choose whether you can disobey your master or not. The Dark side compels you to obey. And Vader acts accordingly until the point when he "lets go of his hate".

Indeed, in your interpretation of the ROTJ, there is message that you are defined as good or bad by virtue of your actions is gone (=killing in anger is still ok, after all), and so is the tension of Luke's situation - he has a way out. Kill his dad. I mean, why wouldn't he? It's the easy and obvious choice, after all. For me, that's trite storytelling, a simple revenge vigilanteism that's been done to death already (pardon the pun).

Edit: Also,- whaddaya mean "short"? Working himself up to the level of rage so that he KILLS HIS OWN FATHER! How is that short? I mean, look at the anger, the wrath on Luke's face as he hovers with his saber an inch from his Father's face...and tell me that's not the face of the Dark side. I think it's one of the best illustrations of the potential of evil in each one of us ever put to screen in a fairy tale movie. Luke's really on the edge of the abyss here. The mere idea that he could kill his father in that most ominous of moments and still be considered a good guy is just beyond me, to be frank.

Though I know you're not the only one making that interpretation....

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Yoda seems to be the only one wise here.

This is why Leia was not needed to be, 'the other' as Anakin works so much better.

Ben's first lesson is how to spin a sword and he gives a lightsaber to Luke the first time he meets him.

Yoda discourages violence and never asks Luke to kill Vader only to face him, to face his fear.

Luke remembers Yoda's lesson in the cave and throws away his sword.

This actually lets Lucas off the hook for not fully training Luke because Anakin is the 'fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally' that defeats Vader and his Emperor.

PT Yoda leaps around and spears Clones through the chest. 

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danaan said:

So, in your interpretation of the OT, regardless of the PT, Luke could have killed his father and still walked away the good guy?

What?  No!  Did you read the links I posted?  You seem to have grossly misunderstood what I was trying to say. 

Maybe I wasn't clear.

What I'm saying is that Luke could have killed Vader and the Emperor and walked away thinking he was still the good guy.  But that would have put him on the path that Yoda said would FOREVER dominate him.

Edit: Also,- whaddaya mean "short"? Working himself up to the level of rage so that he KILLS HIS OWN FATHER! How is that short?

I mean one action taken in a 10 minute fit of rage would not immediately overthrow his sense of right and wrong once he calmed down.  How many people do you know completely change their personalities in a single day? 

I'm saying Luke would have taken his first step down the path of the Dark Side.  And that there would have been many more.  But he wouldn't have already arrived.

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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[quote=xhonzi]



danaan said:

So, in your interpretation of the OT, regardless of the PT, Luke could have killed his father and still walked away the good guy?


What?  No!  Did you read the links I posted?  You seem to have grossly misunderstood what I was trying to say. 

Maybe I wasn't clear.

What I'm saying is that Luke could have killed Vader and the Emperor and walked away thinking he was still the good guy.  But that would have put him on the path that Yoda said would FOREVER dominate him.



Oh, ok. Sorry, my bad. I read it very quickly. Yes, he might indeed have thought himself to be the good guy. The way the scene is set up, though, the movie is pretty much telling us that if Luke kills the bad guys, the end result will be that he'll either become the Emperor's new apprentice, or the new Emperor (if he has the power to kill the Emperor, which the movie tells us is very unlikely). Either way, the good guys lose.

xhonzi said:



Edit: Also,- whaddaya mean "short"? Working himself up to the level of rage so that he KILLS HIS OWN FATHER! How is that short?


I mean one action taken in a 10 minute fit of rage would not immediately overthrow his sense of right and wrong once he calmed down.  How many people do you know completely change their personalities in a single day? 

I'm saying Luke would have taken his first step down the path of the Dark Side.  And that there would have been many more.  But he wouldn't have already arrived.


But that's not what the movie says. 10 minutes of rage might not be consequential to you or me....even if those 10 minutes end with us killing someone, though I would think that such a situation would still be profoundly traumatic for someone who started those 10 minutes as someone with a great deal of ethical integrity. But then, this is SW, and Luke isn't anyone. He's a Force user, and a Force user of great power, and when *he* lets loose he invites the Dark side. Indeed, he "gives himself" to the Dark side. The Dark side has agency, and a power of its own. Note how everyone is talking about how the Dark side is "seductive", and how Vader is an emotional slave of the Emperor. The Dark side is, clearly, kinda like crack for a Jedi. Once you get that powerful first rush - when you kill someone in rage, fuelling yourself with the Dark side...you're stuck and you're a junkie. And Luke, in that moment, is but a saberthrust away from crossing that point of no return and becoming a servant of evil.

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danaan said:


Oh, ok. Sorry, my bad. I read it very quickly. Yes, he might indeed have thought himself to be the good guy. The way the scene is set up, though, the movie is pretty much telling us that if Luke kills the bad guys, the end result will be that he'll either become the Emperor's new apprentice, or the new Emperor (if he has the power to kill the Emperor, which the movie tells us is very unlikely). Either way, the good guys lose.

I'm not sure the movie is telling us that.  Palpatine is telling Luke that.  Palpatine also says it's Luke's destiny, he says that his place is at his side, he says that the Rebels won't win, he says that Luke has misplaced his faith in his friends.  All of these things are proven untrue, why should the nature of Dark Side conversion be any different.

Yoda says there's a path to the Dark Side.  Not a switch.

Besides, Luke used the Dark Side to beat Vader down and he didn't instantly become a Dark Side junkie.  Yes, going all the way and murdering Vader would have been a more serious offense/commitment to the Dark Side.  But I think Palpatine was really just playing head games with Luke.

xhonzi said:



Edit: Also,- whaddaya mean "short"? Working himself up to the level of rage so that he KILLS HIS OWN FATHER! How is that short?


I mean one action taken in a 10 minute fit of rage would not immediately overthrow his sense of right and wrong once he calmed down.  How many people do you know completely change their personalities in a single day? 

I'm saying Luke would have taken his first step down the path of the Dark Side.  And that there would have been many more.  But he wouldn't have already arrived.



But that's not what the movie says. 10 minutes of rage might not be consequential to you or me....even if those 10 minutes end with us killing someone, though I would think that such a situation would still be profoundly traumatic for someone who started those 10 minutes as someone with a great deal of ethical integrity.

Agreed.

But then, this is SW, and Luke isn't anyone. He's a Force user, and a Force user of great power, and when *he* lets loose he invites the Dark side. Indeed, he "gives himself" to the Dark side. The Dark side has agency, and a power of its own. Note how everyone is talking about how the Dark side is "seductive", and how Vader is an emotional slave of the Emperor. The Dark side is, clearly, kinda like crack for a Jedi. Once you get that powerful first rush - when you kill someone in rage, fuelling yourself with the Dark side...you're stuck and you're a junkie. And Luke, in that moment, is but a saberthrust away from crossing that point of no return and becoming a servant of evil.

I understand that that is one interpretation of how the Dark Side could work.  But it's a very "I was possessed by the devil- I'm not responsible for my actions" kind of thing.  Which greatly disinterests me.  That's not seductive at all.

I think you'll find that fiction is full of a lot of that.  Not an actual fall from grace, more like a snap of the fingers and somebody is evil.  Or they're possessed, or they're controlled, or they're replaced by an evil twin.  That's fine and it has its place... but I would rather see an evil actually corrupt a guy, not just control him.

I just can't buy that Luke would swear fealty to the Emperor after striking down Vader.  If anything, his Dark Side rage would lead him to attack the Emperor.  Maybe that battle would go on for a long time, The Emperor toying with Luke, and maybe Luke would continue to tap into more and more of the Dark Side and maybe then he would be ready to commit to it.  But I think Luke's first reaction after the revenge/anger killing of his father would be strong amounts of both relief and regret.  That's not the kind of emotion that would lead to immediately siding with your enemy.

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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All this discussion of Luke's near conversion and how its supposed parallel in Anakin...makes me again wish that Anakin had a better turning point.  Luke struck out in anger and it nearly made him fall.  Anakin tried to save his beloved wife and thus stopped Mace from killing Palpatine by cutting off his hand, and thereby did fall.  Anakin was far weaker willed than his son, and that is something that annoys me.  I think Anakin's fall could have been tragic and even motivated by misplaced desires for good without being so sappy and unbelievable.

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[quote=xhonzi]



I'm not sure the movie is telling us that.  Palpatine is telling Luke that.  Palpatine also says it's Luke's destiny, he says that his place is at his side, he says that the Rebels won't win, he says that Luke has misplaced his faith in his friends.  All of these things are proven untrue, why should the nature of Dark Side conversion be any different.

Yoda says there's a path to the Dark Side.  Not a switch.

Besides, Luke used the Dark Side to beat Vader down and he didn't instantly become a Dark Side junkie.  Yes, going all the way and murdering Vader would have been a more serious offense/commitment to the Dark Side.  But I think Palpatine was really just playing head games with Luke.


I've met many who don't like the conceptualization I'm presenting, but in my experience, they don't consider this: Regardless of how you build the path to the Dark side, there has to be a point, narrative-wise, where you cross line and become a darksider. There has to be a point when you are no longer a Jedi. Which means that there will have to be a tipping point someplace.

Anakin, in the PT, did not fall when he murdered sentients using the Dark side. So when did he turn? When he pledged himself to Sidious? you can argue against that and say that it was actually when he killed children----yet he's crying after he killed the Separatist leaders, so maybe it was when he choked his wife. Even so, there's still a tipping point, a time in the narrative when we say that he is now, definitely, a darksider, no longer a Jedi.

Thus, the notion that there is something like a "gradual transformation" is no more true for Anakin in the PT than it is for Luke - both start tapping in to the Dark side, and in both cases there is a moment when we, as audience, will say - now he's a bad guy. I think it makes more sense that that moment is when the Force user murders someone in anger. It lets the Saga send a powerful moral message to the audience - murdering in anger is wrong, full stop! Vigilanteism is not the path of the Jedi.

Moreover, this is one area where Yoda's words about how the Force works does not in any way contradict the Emperor's words. So, both senior force users are effectively saying the same thing. So maybe they're not lying, eh? Moreover, the Emperor is a selective liar - just because he's lying about some things, does not mean that he's lying about everything. A competent manipulator can play head games very effectively with selective truths. Note also, that the Emperor is starting to treat Luke as his apprentice. So, yes, there are head games, but there are also truths.

Also, what happens with the dramatic tension in the scene itself without this setup?

Well, it's destroyed. There is none. If Luke can kill dad and the Emperor without becoming evil, then nothing is truly at stake here. Thus, the dramaturgy of the scene itself actually supports my conceptualization: the stakes are, objectively, higher, if Luke loses if he wins the fight, AND loses if he loses the fight. Indeed, this dramaturgy is so very Zen that I can't see how any other interpretation can be sustainable. Remember that just about everything Yoda says about the Force in ESB is based on Zen-buddhism/Daoism. And here we have a scene, where the key is to throw away your lightsaber, and find your harmony, and take non-action. Well, that's an embodiment of Wu Wei, one of the chief principles of Daoism.


I understand that that is one interpretation of how the Dark Side could work.  But it's a very "I was possessed by the devil- I'm not responsible for my actions" kind of thing.  Which greatly disinterests me.  That's not seductive at all.

I think you'll find that fiction is full of a lot of that.  Not an actual fall from grace, more like a snap of the fingers and somebody is evil.  Or they're possessed, or they're controlled, or they're replaced by an evil twin.  That's fine and it has its place... but I would rather see an evil actually corrupt a guy, not just control him.

I just can't buy that Luke would swear fealty to the Emperor after striking down Vader.  If anything, his Dark Side rage would lead him to attack the Emperor.  Maybe that battle would go on for a long time, The Emperor toying with Luke, and maybe Luke would continue to tap into more and more of the Dark Side and maybe then he would be ready to commit to it.  But I think Luke's first reaction after the revenge/anger killing of his father would be strong amounts of both relief and regret.  That's not the kind of emotion that would lead to immediately siding with your enemy.


So, why is Vader obeying the Emperor? He clearly doesn't like the old geezer. Why the line "You don't know the power of the dark side, I MUST obey my Master!" Vader is tying his servitude directly to the dark side itself. If the Dark side itself is not a temptation for a Jedi - then why should they be ware of it at all? And yet, they clearly stay away from it! Yoda doesn't say "Well, yeah, the dark side is kinda like TNT - handle it with care in a controlled environment". He clearly instructs Luke to stay well clear of it!

I think that if Luke killed his father, he would become his father - in the sense that his anger, hatred would take him over. He would not be sad, nor would he feel regret. He would feel even more anger and hatred and it would come to dominate him, just as it did his father. Heck, that's the entire point of the dialogue the two have throughout the fight - Vader's incapacity to "let go of this hate" - Luke even calls him on it! Luke would likely direct that at the Emperor, and try to attack him, only to lose, and be forced into servitude, there to bide his time in hatred and resentment, awaiting the moment when he could stab the Emperor in the back, Sith style.

Do not underestimate the destructive power of hatred...is really what SW is telling me, at least, in this powerful climax.

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darth_ender said:


Luke struck out in anger and it nearly made him fall.


No, it didn't nearly make him fall....unless you accept my conceptualization. ;P

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I do.  I side with you rather than xhonzi (sorry buddy).  Clearly if Luke had killed Vader, the Emperor believed that such would have been sufficient to make him an evil replacement.  That was the point, the drama of Luke's decision.

This is why Anakin's turning points had already passed, either with the killing of the sand people or the killing of Duke Dooku ;)

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darth_ender said:


Clearly if Luke had killed Vader, the Emperor believed that such would have been sufficient to make him an evil replacement.


Actually, you bring up another good point. Let's assume that the Emperor is lying - killing Vader does not make Luke a Darksider. He can kill Vader and still be the good guy....

And Luke kills Vader....

And...then what? Is he just going to ask Luke nicely to join the Sith club?


Why is the Emperor doing this whole "let's turn Luke to the Dark side" exercise if it doesn't work that way? Wouldn't that expose the Emperor as an incompetent buffon when it comes to Dark side meta-physics? The Emperor, the guy who is patently the strongest Dark side user of the Saga...doesn't even understand how you recruit people to the Dark side?

I'm sorry, but that sounds...not so plausible...and it makes the Emperor come across as much less intimidating, cuz incompetent folks aren't.

Good catch!

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darth_ender said:

This is why Anakin's turning points had already passed, either with the killing of the sand people or the killing of Duke Dooku ;)

I see what you did there.

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danaan said:

 

darth_ender said:


Clearly if Luke had killed Vader, the Emperor believed that such would have been sufficient to make him an evil replacement.


Actually, you bring up another good point. Let's assume that the Emperor is lying - killing Vader does not make Luke a Darksider. He can kill Vader and still be the good guy....

And Luke kills Vader....

And...then what? Is he just going to ask Luke nicely to join the Sith club?


Why is the Emperor doing this whole "let's turn Luke to the Dark side" exercise if it doesn't work that way? Wouldn't that expose the Emperor as an incompetent buffon when it comes to Dark side meta-physics? The Emperor, the guy who is patently the strongest Dark side user of the Saga...doesn't even understand how you recruit people to the Dark side?

I'm sorry, but that sounds...not so plausible...and it makes the Emperor come across as much less intimidating, cuz incompetent folks aren't.

Good catch!

 

 

The only thing I can come up with is that the Emperor would be the only one who could teach Luke much of anything about the Dark Side. Killing the Emperor wouldn't be in Luke's interests at that point.

 

All I really want is each film as it was originally seen and heard in theaters; no fixes, corrections, "improvements" or modifications necessary.

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danaan said:

No, it didn't nearly make him fall....unless you accept my conceptualization. ;P

I don't think that's really your "conceptualiztion."  I think it's pretty much the default understanding.  It's what I used to assume before I spent any time thinking about it.

darth_ender said:

I do.  I side with you rather than xhonzi (sorry buddy).  

That's it!  You're off the Christmas Card list!  And you can just forget about getting your tupperwareTM back!

danaan said:

Let's assume that the Emperor is lying - killing Vader does not make Luke a Darksider. He can kill Vader and still be the good guy....

I think you're still looking at it too much in terms of Black and White.  I don't think anyone here is saying that Luke could have killed Vader and walked away unaffected.  I don't think anyone's saying Luke's killing Vader wouldn't have put him on an unreversible path to the Dark Side.  The question is whether Luke would simply shrug his shoulder and say "Sure.  I'll join you.  I've already killed my father in anger, I guess I'll just kill ALL of the rebels now.  Even my sister.  BWHAHAHAHAHAH!"

danaan said:

And Luke kills Vader....

And...then what? Is he just going to ask Luke nicely to join the Sith club?

Then what, indeed!  Luke either

Flees, having failed his mission to defeat the emperor and his own immortal soul.  And the Empire wins the day.  Luke has taken that unreversible step to the Dark Side.  In a matter of time, he will be further down the Dark Side path and Luke will seek out the Emperor again.  Only this time he will be prepared to call him Master.

Emperor wins.

~or maybe it goes like this~

Luke attacks the Emperor in his anger.  The emperor is strong enough to rebuff him.  The Emperor doesn't want to kill him, so he doesn't.  The battle pushes Luke to use more and more of the Dark Side.  Still, he's probably not quite ready to join up.  This goes on until Luke has had enough and leaves, - or the Emperor has had enough and sends him packing.  Either way, Luke leaves swearing to gain the power he'll need to return and defeat the Emperor.  On his path to power, Luke believes the ends justify the means and he throws away a lot of the high moral standards he'd developed up to that time.  Somewhere along the way, the good seed of the quest- rid the Galaxy of the Evil Emperor, gives way to the quest for power for power's own sake.  Maybe he seeks out the Emperor, wanting to defeat him and claim revenge, yes... but seeking the knowledge he has first.  The Emperor has forseen this.  Luke becomes his apprentice. 

Emperor wins.

~or it could go like this~

Luke realizes he doesn't have the power to defeat the Emperor (yet) and he also realizes that he won't be able to defeat him in open combat.  To keep his enemy close, Luke swears fealty to the Emperor, but to him it's only a charade.  At least at first.  The Emperor, of course, understands this, so he doesn't send him out to do anything too compromising at first (kill Jedi children) but sends him to do the things he'd like to do anyways.  Quell a dispute between warring factions, etc.  Slowly by slowly, Luke becomes what he pretends to be.   The line between reality and perception blurs.  Luke forgets what he was fighting for in the first place.

Emperor wins.

~probably not like this, but it's possible~

The Emperor really does have some ideal that he's beholden to.  He's so dedicated to this cause (whatever it is) that he's willing to die so that his more powerful apprentice can take over.  So, after Luke kills Vader in a Dark Side rage, he fights Luke, knowing that Luke will tap into enough of the Dark Side to win.  Emperor is dead.  Luke is more tainted with Dark Side power than ever.  Luke eventually continues down that path to become an even more powerful Emperor than Palpatine.  Whatever Dark Side cause they're all dedicated to (?) is furthered.

Dark Side (therefore its servant the Emperor) wins.

~or another posibility, one I mentioned before~

The Emperor Approaches Luke and says: "Kneel before me, my new apprentice!"  And Luke says, "You think you have won, but you have failed, Your Highness.  I'm still a Jedi."  And he holds his sabre at the ready.   The Emperor tries to stun Luke with force lightning, but Luke is able to resist it.  He force pushes the old man down.  The room shakes as the rebel attack takes its toll.  Luke decides it's time to get out of there.  The rebels destroy the Death Star, Vader and (presumably) the Emperor are dead.  Sure, Luke used the Dark Side to do it.  The Emperor said it would cause him to become it's slave, well that sure wasn't the case.  He's fine.  In fact, he's never felt better.  Etc, etc...

The Emperor wins.

My point is that it doesn't matter exactly what the Emperor's exit strategy was.  I'm sure there are many, many more possible situations that I haven't thought of, but it's always the same- Luke always loses.  Ther Emperor always wins.

 

danaan said:
Why is the Emperor doing this whole "let's turn Luke to the Dark side" exercise if it doesn't work that way? Wouldn't that expose the Emperor as an incompetent buffon when it comes to Dark side meta-physics? The Emperor, the guy who is patently the strongest Dark side user of the Saga...doesn't even understand how you recruit people to the Dark side?

I'm sorry, but that sounds...not so plausible...and it makes the Emperor come across as much less intimidating, cuz incompetent folks aren't.

Whether you'll appreciate anything I wrote above, I have no idea.  But as I said before, having Luke simply cease as a character only to be replaced by "Evil Luke" is pretty powerless.  That doesn't interest me at all and I see it as cheap storytelling in lieu of actually exploring the way that power (or feelings of power) ruin otherwise good people.  It also removes the potential for redemption from the Dark Side.  If you have no good part of you left... how can that good part overthrow the bad part?  And if there can be mostly bad parts with a little good left, then there has to be the possibility for mostly good with a little bad as well.

I don't like very much about the prequels, if anything.  But the idea that Anakin's killing a bunch of sand people that he thinks deserved it was the start of his path down the dark side, and not his arrival at end, I can totally get behind.  He went home.  Was slightly disturbed by his own actions.  Rationalized that they were the correct actions.  And then proceded to be more reckless with his future actions.  It's the sudden turn in Revenge of the Sith that makes no sense to me.

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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[quote=xhonzi]
I think you're still looking at it too much in terms of Black and White.  I don't think anyone here is saying that Luke could have killed Vader and walked away unaffected.  I don't think anyone's saying Luke's killing Vader wouldn't have put him on an unreversible path to the Dark Side.  The question is whether Luke would simply shrug his shoulder and say "Sure.  I'll join you.  I've already killed my father in anger, I guess I'll just kill ALL of the rebels now.  Even my sister.  BWHAHAHAHAHAH!"



Well...um...yes. The SW universe is a Manichean universe - it IS Black vs White. That's why, hardwired into its genetic structure, underpinning everything, you find the Light Side and the Dark side of the Force. Ever heard of the Grey side of the Force? No? Maybe that's cuz there isn't one. ;P

Now, I don't think "my" scenario would play out in quite such a cheesy way. And I say that knowing that in the throne room scene, we have an old, evil wizard, sitting on a black throne in a black throne, cackling, and shooting lighting from his fingers....

Rather, I think we would have seen Angry Luke (as opposed to Harmony Luke we actually got), and if he met any of his old friends, his hatred and anger would have gotten in the way of their relationship. Probably something like; "Leia, don't get in my way, I'm doing this for the good of the galaxy", etc.


[quote=xhonzi]
Then what, indeed!  Luke either

Flees, having failed his mission to defeat the emperor and his own immortal soul.  And the Empire wins the day.  Luke has taken that unreversible step to the Dark Side.  In a matter of time, he will be further down the Dark Side path and Luke will seek out the Emperor again.  Only this time he will be prepared to call him Master.

Emperor wins.

~or maybe it goes like this~

Luke attacks the Emperor in his anger.  The emperor is strong enough to rebuff him.  The Emperor doesn't want to kill him, so he doesn't.  The battle pushes Luke to use more and more of the Dark Side.  Still, he's probably not quite ready to join up.  This goes on until Luke has had enough and leaves, - or the Emperor has had enough and sends him packing.  Either way, Luke leaves swearing to gain the power he'll need to return and defeat the Emperor.  On his path to power, Luke believes the ends justify the means and he throws away a lot of the high moral standards he'd developed up to that time.  Somewhere along the way, the good seed of the quest- rid the Galaxy of the Evil Emperor, gives way to the quest for power for power's own sake.  Maybe he seeks out the Emperor, wanting to defeat him and claim revenge, yes... but seeking the knowledge he has first.  The Emperor has forseen this.  Luke becomes his apprentice. 

Emperor wins.

~or it could go like this~

Luke realizes he doesn't have the power to defeat the Emperor (yet) and he also realizes that he won't be able to defeat him in open combat.  To keep his enemy close, Luke swears fealty to the Emperor, but to him it's only a charade.  At least at first.  The Emperor, of course, understands this, so he doesn't send him out to do anything too compromising at first (kill Jedi children) but sends him to do the things he'd like to do anyways.  Quell a dispute between warring factions, etc.  Slowly by slowly, Luke becomes what he pretends to be.   The line between reality and perception blurs.  Luke forgets what he was fighting for in the first place.

Emperor wins.

~probably not like this, but it's possible~

The Emperor really does have some ideal that he's beholden to.  He's so dedicated to this cause (whatever it is) that he's willing to die so that his more powerful apprentice can take over.  So, after Luke kills Vader in a Dark Side rage, he fights Luke, knowing that Luke will tap into enough of the Dark Side to win.  Emperor is dead.  Luke is more tainted with Dark Side power than ever.  Luke eventually continues down that path to become an even more powerful Emperor than Palpatine.  Whatever Dark Side cause they're all dedicated to (?) is furthered.

Dark Side (therefore its servant the Emperor) wins.

~or another posibility, one I mentioned before~

The Emperor Approaches Luke and says: "Kneel before me, my new apprentice!"  And Luke says, "You think you have won, but you have failed, Your Highness.  I'm still a Jedi."  And he holds his sabre at the ready.   The Emperor tries to stun Luke with force lightning, but Luke is able to resist it.  He force pushes the old man down.  The room shakes as the rebel attack takes its toll.  Luke decides it's time to get out of there.  The rebels destroy the Death Star, Vader and (presumably) the Emperor are dead.  Sure, Luke used the Dark Side to do it.  The Emperor said it would cause him to become it's slave, well that sure wasn't the case.  He's fine.  In fact, he's never felt better.  Etc, etc...

The Emperor wins.

My point is that it doesn't matter exactly what the Emperor's exit strategy was.  I'm sure there are many, many more possible situations that I haven't thought of, but it's always the same- Luke always loses.  Ther Emperor always wins.


Exactly. All that is consistent with the first premise: if Luke wins, he loses. In all cases, anger takes over.

xhonzi said:


Whether you'll appreciate anything I wrote above, I have no idea.  But as I said before, having Luke simply cease as a character only to be replaced by "Evil Luke" is pretty powerless.  That doesn't interest me at all and I see it as cheap storytelling in lieu of actually exploring the way that power (or feelings of power) ruin otherwise good people. 


I dunno....Do you consider Frodo finally being corrupted by the Ring when he stands in the heart of Mount Doom cheap and powerless? I don't. In fact, I consider it one of the most powerful moments in LOTR (book or movie). No one can stand against the corruption of the evil powers for very long. In SW, too, we have an evil power (the Dark side of the Force) that is corrupts those who use it. It completely in line with the SW theme. It does so by virtue of the choices those people make, because to use the Dark side you have to give in to Fear, Anger and Hatred, and a person can choose not do give in to those emotions. But it corrupts nonetheless, and I think this trait of the Dark side is an important dimension of the fairy tale. It sends the message that no matter how good you think you are, you can't really use the Dark side for good, by virtue of its very nature.

xhonzi said:


It also removes the potential for redemption from the Dark Side.  If you have no good part of you left... how can that good part overthrow the bad part?  And if there can be mostly bad parts with a little good left, then there has to be the possibility for mostly good with a little bad as well.


No, it doesn't. There is nothing in this interpretation that contradicts Anakin's redemption. It only makes it harder. You know, much like an addict needs support through rehab to kick the habit. There's always some little chance for redemption, if the character can let go of the hate.

xhonzi said:


I don't like very much about the prequels, if anything.  But the idea that Anakin's killing a bunch of sand people that he thinks deserved it was the start of his path down the dark side, and not his arrival at end, I can totally get behind.  He went home.  Was slightly disturbed by his own actions.  Rationalized that they were the correct actions.  And then proceded to be more reckless with his future actions.  It's the sudden turn in Revenge of the Sith that makes no sense to me.


That's where we disagree. It has, in the OT, been established that if you kill in anger, you become a Darksider. It has also been said that anger and hatred will dominate you. Vader clearly links his servitude to the Emperor to the power of the Dark side. And every single Dark sider (in both PT and OT) sound like they are tripping when they are saying that the "Dark side makes them more powerful than any Jedi" (and they all say this - Dooku, Sidious, Anakin/Vader).

But here's Anakin who can kill an entire village of sentients and...essentially nothing happens. He's pretty much the same Anakin in the arena fight as he was when he walked into Padme's office in the early part of the movie. Aside from his little rant in front of Padme, it's like nothing happened. He should be angry, he should, well, be tripping on the Dark side high of the century after that Song My of his.

And even if he is sufficiently controlled as to not show his inner turmoil (which he has never shown himself capable of during the earlier part of the movie), the Jedi around him should sense how he is infused by the Dark side from that little massacre of his. He should get long anger management and therapy sessions at the Jedi Temple.

It makes no sense on so many levels.

For me, his turn in ROTS is not sudden at all. I consider him Darth Vader in all but name from the point when he starts slaughtering Sand People. He does nothing more evil in all of ROTS then he does right there, so why should we consider Anakin "badder" then?

A more plausible arc would have been to have him start smaller. "A Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defence, never for attack." Have him violate that rule in Ep 2. Slightly. This will only work if the rule is something Jedi actually live by. That way, the contrast would come out starkly. Then he does it again, and again, each time a little more severe than the last. The arc ends with him killing in anger and turning. That gives even more weight to Luke's trial in the throne room scene, because Anakin went through the same, and failed.

That's my take on it...

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I didnt even bother clicking the link.  Ive read so much of that garbage from TF.N years ago that I already knew what this poor excuse for an article said.   And people  like that article's author will buy anything Luca$ throws out anyway.  Luca$ could have the jedi council in each of the PT films performing a "circle jerk" and that author plus the knuckleheads at TF.N will not only buy the revised films, but swear by them as Luca$'s  ingenuity.

"There's no cluster of midiclorians that controls my destiny!" -Han Solo, from a future revision of ANH

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I'm going to just come right out and say it. I don't hate the prequels.


"You may all go to Hell, and I will go to Texas." Davy Crockett