[quote=xhonzi]
I think you're still looking at it too much in terms of Black and White. I don't think anyone here is saying that Luke could have killed Vader and walked away unaffected. I don't think anyone's saying Luke's killing Vader wouldn't have put him on an unreversible path to the Dark Side. The question is whether Luke would simply shrug his shoulder and say "Sure. I'll join you. I've already killed my father in anger, I guess I'll just kill ALL of the rebels now. Even my sister. BWHAHAHAHAHAH!"
Well...um...yes. The SW universe is a Manichean universe - it IS Black vs White. That's why, hardwired into its genetic structure, underpinning everything, you find the Light Side and the Dark side of the Force. Ever heard of the Grey side of the Force? No? Maybe that's cuz there isn't one. ;P
Now, I don't think "my" scenario would play out in quite such a cheesy way. And I say that knowing that in the throne room scene, we have an old, evil wizard, sitting on a black throne in a black throne, cackling, and shooting lighting from his fingers....
Rather, I think we would have seen Angry Luke (as opposed to Harmony Luke we actually got), and if he met any of his old friends, his hatred and anger would have gotten in the way of their relationship. Probably something like; "Leia, don't get in my way, I'm doing this for the good of the galaxy", etc.
[quote=xhonzi]
Then what, indeed! Luke either
Flees, having failed his mission to defeat the emperor and his own immortal soul. And the Empire wins the day. Luke has taken that unreversible step to the Dark Side. In a matter of time, he will be further down the Dark Side path and Luke will seek out the Emperor again. Only this time he will be prepared to call him Master.
Emperor wins.
~or maybe it goes like this~
Luke attacks the Emperor in his anger. The emperor is strong enough to rebuff him. The Emperor doesn't want to kill him, so he doesn't. The battle pushes Luke to use more and more of the Dark Side. Still, he's probably not quite ready to join up. This goes on until Luke has had enough and leaves, - or the Emperor has had enough and sends him packing. Either way, Luke leaves swearing to gain the power he'll need to return and defeat the Emperor. On his path to power, Luke believes the ends justify the means and he throws away a lot of the high moral standards he'd developed up to that time. Somewhere along the way, the good seed of the quest- rid the Galaxy of the Evil Emperor, gives way to the quest for power for power's own sake. Maybe he seeks out the Emperor, wanting to defeat him and claim revenge, yes... but seeking the knowledge he has first. The Emperor has forseen this. Luke becomes his apprentice.
Emperor wins.
~or it could go like this~
Luke realizes he doesn't have the power to defeat the Emperor (yet) and he also realizes that he won't be able to defeat him in open combat. To keep his enemy close, Luke swears fealty to the Emperor, but to him it's only a charade. At least at first. The Emperor, of course, understands this, so he doesn't send him out to do anything too compromising at first (kill Jedi children) but sends him to do the things he'd like to do anyways. Quell a dispute between warring factions, etc. Slowly by slowly, Luke becomes what he pretends to be. The line between reality and perception blurs. Luke forgets what he was fighting for in the first place.
Emperor wins.
~probably not like this, but it's possible~
The Emperor really does have some ideal that he's beholden to. He's so dedicated to this cause (whatever it is) that he's willing to die so that his more powerful apprentice can take over. So, after Luke kills Vader in a Dark Side rage, he fights Luke, knowing that Luke will tap into enough of the Dark Side to win. Emperor is dead. Luke is more tainted with Dark Side power than ever. Luke eventually continues down that path to become an even more powerful Emperor than Palpatine. Whatever Dark Side cause they're all dedicated to (?) is furthered.
Dark Side (therefore its servant the Emperor) wins.
~or another posibility, one I mentioned before~
The Emperor Approaches Luke and says: "Kneel before me, my new apprentice!" And Luke says, "You think you have won, but you have failed, Your Highness. I'm still a Jedi." And he holds his sabre at the ready. The Emperor tries to stun Luke with force lightning, but Luke is able to resist it. He force pushes the old man down. The room shakes as the rebel attack takes its toll. Luke decides it's time to get out of there. The rebels destroy the Death Star, Vader and (presumably) the Emperor are dead. Sure, Luke used the Dark Side to do it. The Emperor said it would cause him to become it's slave, well that sure wasn't the case. He's fine. In fact, he's never felt better. Etc, etc...
The Emperor wins.
My point is that it doesn't matter exactly what the Emperor's exit strategy was. I'm sure there are many, many more possible situations that I haven't thought of, but it's always the same- Luke always loses. Ther Emperor always wins.
Exactly. All that is consistent with the first premise: if Luke wins, he loses. In all cases, anger takes over.
xhonzi said:
Whether you'll appreciate anything I wrote above, I have no idea. But as I said before, having Luke simply cease as a character only to be replaced by "Evil Luke" is pretty powerless. That doesn't interest me at all and I see it as cheap storytelling in lieu of actually exploring the way that power (or feelings of power) ruin otherwise good people.
I dunno....Do you consider Frodo finally being corrupted by the Ring when he stands in the heart of Mount Doom cheap and powerless? I don't. In fact, I consider it one of the most powerful moments in LOTR (book or movie). No one can stand against the corruption of the evil powers for very long. In SW, too, we have an evil power (the Dark side of the Force) that is corrupts those who use it. It completely in line with the SW theme. It does so by virtue of the choices those people make, because to use the Dark side you have to give in to Fear, Anger and Hatred, and a person can choose not do give in to those emotions. But it corrupts nonetheless, and I think this trait of the Dark side is an important dimension of the fairy tale. It sends the message that no matter how good you think you are, you can't really use the Dark side for good, by virtue of its very nature.
xhonzi said:
It also removes the potential for redemption from the Dark Side. If you have no good part of you left... how can that good part overthrow the bad part? And if there can be mostly bad parts with a little good left, then there has to be the possibility for mostly good with a little bad as well.
No, it doesn't. There is nothing in this interpretation that contradicts Anakin's redemption. It only makes it harder. You know, much like an addict needs support through rehab to kick the habit. There's always some little chance for redemption, if the character can let go of the hate.
xhonzi said:
I don't like very much about the prequels, if anything. But the idea that Anakin's killing a bunch of sand people that he thinks deserved it was the start of his path down the dark side, and not his arrival at end, I can totally get behind. He went home. Was slightly disturbed by his own actions. Rationalized that they were the correct actions. And then proceded to be more reckless with his future actions. It's the sudden turn in Revenge of the Sith that makes no sense to me.
That's where we disagree. It has, in the OT, been established that if you kill in anger, you become a Darksider. It has also been said that anger and hatred will dominate you. Vader clearly links his servitude to the Emperor to the power of the Dark side. And every single Dark sider (in both PT and OT) sound like they are tripping when they are saying that the "Dark side makes them more powerful than any Jedi" (and they all say this - Dooku, Sidious, Anakin/Vader).
But here's Anakin who can kill an entire village of sentients and...essentially nothing happens. He's pretty much the same Anakin in the arena fight as he was when he walked into Padme's office in the early part of the movie. Aside from his little rant in front of Padme, it's like nothing happened. He should be angry, he should, well, be tripping on the Dark side high of the century after that Song My of his.
And even if he is sufficiently controlled as to not show his inner turmoil (which he has never shown himself capable of during the earlier part of the movie), the Jedi around him should sense how he is infused by the Dark side from that little massacre of his. He should get long anger management and therapy sessions at the Jedi Temple.
It makes no sense on so many levels.
For me, his turn in ROTS is not sudden at all. I consider him Darth Vader in all but name from the point when he starts slaughtering Sand People. He does nothing more evil in all of ROTS then he does right there, so why should we consider Anakin "badder" then?
A more plausible arc would have been to have him start smaller. "A Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defence, never for attack." Have him violate that rule in Ep 2. Slightly. This will only work if the rule is something Jedi actually live by. That way, the contrast would come out starkly. Then he does it again, and again, each time a little more severe than the last. The arc ends with him killing in anger and turning. That gives even more weight to Luke's trial in the throne room scene, because Anakin went through the same, and failed.
That's my take on it...