xhonzi said:
danaan said:
xhonzi said:
danaan said:
So, Luke can't win by fighting, but he also can't avoid the fight! That's a very precise moral dilemma (which the PT, btw, ruins),
I'm sure I won't disagree with you, but please elaborate on this point. What in the PT influences this moment in RotJ?
Well, the point in ROTJ is that IF Luke kills his father, strikes him down in anger, drawing upon the Dark side to fuel himself, THEN "his journey towards the Dark side is complete". I.e. IF a Jedi kills in anger, THEN he will become a darksider.
In AOTC, Anakin kills an ENTIRE village of sandpeople in anger (their guilt in his mother's death is irrelevant) and REMAINS a good guy. So, if Anakin can do that, why can't Luke kill his father and still be a good guy at the end of ROTJ. So, what the PT is telling us is that this wonderfully balanced finale is all mumbojumbo and that Luke should just shove his lightsaber in his dad's face and then what the old chuckling geezer in the gape. And then maybe flip them some badass comment...cuz, why not?
Oops. Looks like I do disagree afterall. I don't think this is the PT speaking (given that I am an ardent anti-PT guy) but I don't think the Emperor was exactly right when he said that to Luke. I wrote this all out long hand years ago, so let me just direct you here:
<a href="http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Luke-VS-the-Emperor-What-if-Vader-hadnt-been-there/post/401848/#TopicPost401848"></a><a href="http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Luke-VS-the-Emperor-What-if-Vader-hadnt-been-there/post/401848/#TopicPost401848" target="_blank" title="originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Luke-VS-the-Emperor-What-if-Vader-hadnt-been-there/post/401848/#TopicPost401848"></a><a href="http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Luke-VS-the-Emperor-What-if-Vader-hadnt-been-there/post/401848/#TopicPost401848" target="_blank" title="originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Luke-VS-the-Emperor-What-if-Vader-hadnt-been-there/post/401848/#TopicPost401848">http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Luke-VS-the-Emperor-What-if-Vader-hadnt-been-there/post/401848/#TopicPost401848</a>
and here:
<a href="http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Luke-VS-the-Emperor-What-if-Vader-hadnt-been-there/post/403366/#TopicPost403366"></a><a href="http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Luke-VS-the-Emperor-What-if-Vader-hadnt-been-there/post/403366/#TopicPost403366" target="_blank" title="originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Luke-VS-the-Emperor-What-if-Vader-hadnt-been-there/post/403366/#TopicPost403366"></a><a href="http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Luke-VS-the-Emperor-What-if-Vader-hadnt-been-there/post/403366/#TopicPost403366" target="_blank" title="originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Luke-VS-the-Emperor-What-if-Vader-hadnt-been-there/post/403366/#TopicPost403366">http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Luke-VS-the-Emperor-What-if-Vader-hadnt-been-there/post/403366/#TopicPost403366</a>
The long of the short of it is this: I don't believe the path to the Dark Side is that short.
Yoda said that once you indulge the Dark Side, forever would it direct your path. He didn't say that you became a mindless zombie and threw away all of your previous convinctions after one puff.
*cough*Revenge of the Sith*cough*
So, in your interpretation of the OT, regardless of the PT, Luke could have killed his father and still walked away the good guy?
In my opinion, this is a fundamental misunderstanding of the message of SW, and there is nothing inside the actual movie to support this. In fact, all evidence supports my interpretation - Yoda, Ben AND Palpatine all warn Luke about giving in to the Dark side. Add to that how Vader is acting like a slave to the Dark side: "You don't understand the power of the Dark side; I MUST obey my master". I.e. once you're the sway of the Dark side, you really don't have all that much free will to choose whether you can disobey your master or not. The Dark side compels you to obey. And Vader acts accordingly until the point when he "lets go of his hate".
Indeed, in your interpretation of the ROTJ, there is message that you are defined as good or bad by virtue of your actions is gone (=killing in anger is still ok, after all), and so is the tension of Luke's situation - he has a way out. Kill his dad. I mean, why wouldn't he? It's the easy and obvious choice, after all. For me, that's trite storytelling, a simple revenge vigilanteism that's been done to death already (pardon the pun).
Edit: Also,- whaddaya mean "short"? Working himself up to the level of rage so that he KILLS HIS OWN FATHER! How is that short? I mean, look at the anger, the wrath on Luke's face as he hovers with his saber an inch from his Father's face...and tell me that's not the face of the Dark side. I think it's one of the best illustrations of the potential of evil in each one of us ever put to screen in a fairy tale movie. Luke's really on the edge of the abyss here. The mere idea that he could kill his father in that most ominous of moments and still be considered a good guy is just beyond me, to be frank.
Though I know you're not the only one making that interpretation....