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Collaborative Fanediting: An ROTJ Proposition (BACK ON TRACK WITH EMANSWFAN AT THE HELM--SEE POST 1488 OR OP FOR A LINK!) — Page 12

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I'm not trying to put down your ideas, but when we debate things, we point out the potential flaws or what we don't like.  It seems extremely out of character for the Rebels to fire upon an informant, even an untrustworthy bounty hunter, without justification.  Just suspect a trap is pretty low.  He'd need to fire first, or at least threaten to fire before they could do the same.  Like I said, it's probably the best fitting idea if we go with one of these.  Not trying to be critical.

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Thats fine It does not exactly have to be how I imagined it, It could end at the droid being jettisoned and he flys off say... Any Ideas are welcome, I am simply trying to conjure the Cliched "toss the briefcase over here" scenes from gangster movies but in a star wars syle it always normally ends in a double cross so perhaps bossk fires and then rebels retaliate and then Bossk leaves.

Bossk on the make eh?

Whatever would work best really... It is of course a triple cross because it was intended the plans would fall into rebel hands by the empire as the emporer explains at a later point.

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So I'm hoping to hear more about Victory star destroyers.  A couple of people told me why they don't support it, but have I changed anyone's mind, or is anyone reconsidering?  Some votes were flat out yeses to the extra ships, and a couple specifically said no.  I just think that Victories would blend in perfectly, but would be nice support craft.

Also, I was watching the Clone Wars today, and again saw the BTL-B Y-wings, the heavily armored sort.  I think they were a really cool idea and would be a nice additional starfighter.  Several like the idea of Y-wings bombing the Executor, so if that idea passes, perhaps the this Y-wing could do the bombing run, while the other Y-wings serve more in the starfighter role (as they both have been sort of differentiated in this regard anyway in the EU)/

BTL-B

 

BTL-S3 or BTL-A4 (very similar to each other, former is pilot and gunner, latter is single pilot, shown in the films)

EDIT: I'm also thinking it would be cool to add Interdictor cruisers, as they are specifically designed to prevent hyperspace escape, and it would be more logical to include them to prevent escape.  Thoughts anyone?

EDIT: Fixed Y-wing pic.

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darth_ender said:

So I'm hoping to hear more about Victory star destroyers.  A couple of people told me why they don't support it, but have I changed anyone's mind, or is anyone reconsidering?  Some votes were flat out yeses to the extra ships, and a couple specifically said no.  I just think that Victories would blend in perfectly, but would be nice support craft.

Also, I was watching the Clone Wars today, and again saw the BTL-B Y-wings, the heavily armored sort.  I think they were a really cool idea and would be a nice additional starfighter.  Several like the idea of Y-wings bombing the Executor, so if that idea passes, perhaps the this Y-wing could do the bombing run, while the other Y-wings serve more in the starfighter role (as they both have been sort of differentiated in this regard anyway in the EU)/

BTL-B

 

BTL-S3 or BTL-A4 (very similar to each other, former is pilot and gunner, latter is single pilot, shown in the films)

EDIT: I'm also thinking it would be cool to add Interdictor cruisers, as they are specifically designed to prevent hyperspace escape, and it would be more logical to include them to prevent escape.  Thoughts anyone?

I know this is kind of a "prequel mentality" but I think the selection process should be this: we should include ships that look cool. Function doesn't really matter, as we're never going to see them prevent escape. But if they look cool, I'm all for having them.

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darth_ender said:

Based on our discussion in the PT/OT integration thread, I had a thought that I'm not sure we should use, but I think it's worth discussing.  Should Vader be a stronger character?  He certainly appears stronger in ESB, but when facing his master, he is a little weakling.  Now I see the purpose of this, as we're now trying to have a sympathetic character that in a sense is an addict.  We see his weak side and believe that because of it, he can never change.  This to me really builds up the emotion for a non-verbal turning on his master and hurling him down that shaft.  I really feel how difficult that choice must have been for him, but his love for his son conquers all the evil in his past (remember, I really like ROTJ).

However, given that we see a stronger Vader in ESB, and given that weakness takes away from his coolness, should we somehow make him appear a bit stronger?  Should his humility before the Emperor be a false humility, with that lingering thought of betrayal in the back of his mind?  Would this decrease the emotion of his choice in the end?  Would it preserve his coolness?

We're still early in this thread, but soon I think I'm going to have to start linking to various ideas in the first post.  This is going to be time-ocnsuming to keep up with.

I think including the Moff Jerrjerrod scene with the Emperor's guard when Vader chokes him would reinforce that. I like how in your script instead of saying "I will await his convenience" he says "The Emperor will see me NOW." Gives a little insight into Vader's underlying rebellious attitude towards his Master. 

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MrInsaneA said:

darth_ender said:

So I'm hoping to hear more about Victory star destroyers.  A couple of people told me why they don't support it, but have I changed anyone's mind, or is anyone reconsidering?  Some votes were flat out yeses to the extra ships, and a couple specifically said no.  I just think that Victories would blend in perfectly, but would be nice support craft.

Also, I was watching the Clone Wars today, and again saw the BTL-B Y-wings, the heavily armored sort.  I think they were a really cool idea and would be a nice additional starfighter.  Several like the idea of Y-wings bombing the Executor, so if that idea passes, perhaps the this Y-wing could do the bombing run, while the other Y-wings serve more in the starfighter role (as they both have been sort of differentiated in this regard anyway in the EU)/

BTL-B

 

BTL-S3 or BTL-A4 (very similar to each other, former is pilot and gunner, latter is single pilot, shown in the films)

EDIT: I'm also thinking it would be cool to add Interdictor cruisers, as they are specifically designed to prevent hyperspace escape, and it would be more logical to include them to prevent escape.  Thoughts anyone?

I know this is kind of a "prequel mentality" but I think the selection process should be this: we should include ships that look cool. Function doesn't really matter, as we're never going to see them prevent escape. But if they look cool, I'm all for having them.

I for one enjoy knowing the function, but I see what you're saying.  Most won't even know what anything is doing.  Frankly, I think Interdictors are cool too, and they look like small star destroyers.  The other ships I suggest I think look cool too.

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MrInsaneA said:

darth_ender said:

So I'm hoping to hear more about Victory star destroyers.  A couple of people told me why they don't support it, but have I changed anyone's mind, or is anyone reconsidering?  Some votes were flat out yeses to the extra ships, and a couple specifically said no.  I just think that Victories would blend in perfectly, but would be nice support craft.

Also, I was watching the Clone Wars today, and again saw the BTL-B Y-wings, the heavily armored sort.  I think they were a really cool idea and would be a nice additional starfighter.  Several like the idea of Y-wings bombing the Executor, so if that idea passes, perhaps the this Y-wing could do the bombing run, while the other Y-wings serve more in the starfighter role (as they both have been sort of differentiated in this regard anyway in the EU)/

BTL-B

 

BTL-S3 or BTL-A4 (very similar to each other, former is pilot and gunner, latter is single pilot, shown in the films)

EDIT: I'm also thinking it would be cool to add Interdictor cruisers, as they are specifically designed to prevent hyperspace escape, and it would be more logical to include them to prevent escape.  Thoughts anyone?

I know this is kind of a "prequel mentality" but I think the selection process should be this: we should include ships that look cool. Function doesn't really matter, as we're never going to see them prevent escape. But if they look cool, I'm all for having them.

I think you should consider it more like if Ralph Mcquarrie the concept artist for Episodes 4-6 did not design it then it's not really intended to be there...

I would really hate to see loads of CGI ships at the end it would be pretty horrible, and this is far from conservative... To use existing footage of B-wings and A-wings and X-wings from the other films would keep it looking the same but expand the space battle. a bit. I think it's a big mistake to start putting loads of CGI ships at the end it would be like 2 different films in the same movie.... Atleast thats what I think.

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This is the area where I really wanted to "big" up the movie.  I really wanted to make the space battle big and exciting.

Let me again plug for the Victory.  Like several EU items used by West End Games, it was created from rejected concept art, in this case concept art for Imperial Star Destroyer:

I don't know who the artist is, but this art precedes the films, and I think that justifies its presence.  See the Wookieepedia article and read Behind the Scenes.

The ships I suggest most strongly are this and the Y-wing.  The designers of the Clone Wars series tried hard to stick to a similar design to the original Y-wing, which is of course real OT.  It's a variant, and an interesting one to me.

Interdictors are an afterthought, and I certainly don't mind not including them at all.  I don't even mind not using the Y-wing, though I do like it.

As far as being conservative, what I mean is practical and realistic.  Creating ships is easier than creating characters flying out of Sarlaac's mouth.  Also, when talking conservative, I'm talking about being fairly true to the original story.  That doesn't mean I'm not open to changes to it, but that the original story was quite enjoyable for me personally (though I know many didn't like it).  Completely rewriting the movie is unrealistic to me, and it's an unnecessary undertaking considering the value of the original IMO.  Adding ships makes very little difference to the original story.  Moving Dagobah to earlier and saying Luke's been training a while is bigger, but it's still acceptable.  Making Endor a moon of Coruscant  (while not an idea I like) is a reasonable change.  But some discussions to me are just too unrealistic for our artists, our budget, etc.

As a final thought, I also don't like the overuse of CGI, but it does have its place.  Like I said, it's easier to create ships than people.  But who even says it has to be CGI?  If you look at my first post, I mentioned model building.  I wouldn't mind constructing a Victory star destroyer model, filming it, and compositing it into shots.

Let me show a visual comparison between the two:

They're not too dissimilar.  But the Victory is only a little over half the size of the Imperial.

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Are you placing the extra star destroyers on the Rebel side or the Imperial side? If they're with the rebels the battle just gets visually confusing for the audience.

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Another comment I'd like to make has to do with the size of the Rebel flagship Home One.  The model has always been larger than other Mon Cal cruisers, and the canon defines standard cruisers as 1,200-1,500 meters (compared to a star destroyer being 1,600).  The EU canon size for Home One is supposedly the same as any other Mon Cal cruiser, but scaling the actual physical models implies a size of around 2,500 meters.  See this for scale:

This picture shows a comparison between the standard Mon Cal ship and a Star Destroyer:

I hope we use the large scale Home One.  I think it'd be cool to see several Mon Cal cruisers, including the larger Home One,  attacking the Executor.  It'd make sense thta it's the Rebels' best ship, and we never see it really engage in any action.  It'd be good to see them putting everything on the line to take down the Executor.

 

What did you guys think of my brief scene outlines involving B-wings?

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Vladius said:

Are you placing the extra star destroyers on the Rebel side or the Imperial side? If they're with the rebels the battle just gets visually confusing for the audience.

Definitely with the Imperials as support craft, perhaps taking on the fighters more directly.  At least that's how I envision it.

EDIT: I fixed the above Y-wing pic.

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What did you guys think of my brief scene outlines involving B-wings?

Somthing Like that I am all for it! as long as it does not take too long time-wise, This would give alot more to the B-wings as they were new for ROTJ and did not really get much screen time.

So far as Y-wings I would be happy with re-using footage from ANH and showing them Bombing the Executor somehow perhaps a couple of Y-wing being destroyed too. I don't like those other PT ones but thats just my opinion.

what about Tie-Phantoms?

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080706064110/starwars/images/9/9f/TIEfantom.jpg

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I like the design of the Phantoms when I'm playing in EU world, but when I'm considering designs for this movie, I personally oppose, mostly because I'm familiar with its EU properties (cloaking ability).

But now that I said that, I really do like the look, and as long as we left out the cloaking ability, making them just a TIE variant, I might not oppose a few cameos.

See, these disagreements are a good thing.  A "benevolent dictator" (a term coined by George Lucas) is an efficient governor.  But democracy is inefficient and at times contentious.  The other editors can shape the story exactly as they want.  But we have more resources at our disposal, and through our various arguments we can make a better story.  Remember, the reason the PT fell short is because no one had the guts to tell George, the Benevolent Dictator, that some of his ideas just plain sucked.  It's good to argue a bit :)

EDIT: I forgot to mention, I'm glad you like the B-wing scenes.  I agree about the length, and I do worry about them being too long, particularly the attack on the communications SD.  I'm sure it can be trimmed, but everything is so fast paced in that battle that we can't really focus for more than 15 seconds on a particular skirmish or it'd feel out of place.

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Have so big, complex and different imperial ships in the battle might create confusion.

Not that i dont see a particular reason go so deep into putting more ship desings in the battle but i cant even think the amount of render and compositing part. Very few can support so big scenes and compose them.

I would love giving executor a reason to be called a superstar destroyer and not just be a big ship just standing there..(maybe a big gravity gun that cant allow ships to escape.

Besides allways you have to establish why or what is this(new ships) and what they do so special. (i guess star wars failed to deliver what Ywings are and Bwings as well)


-Angel

–>Artwork<–**

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Most of the CGI stuff is beyond me, but it seems that it wouldn't have to be that complex.  Most of my suggestions would include minor changes to existing shots, like when you see the Rebel fleet, adding a few more Mon Cal cruisers in the distant background to imply a bigger battle.  The most complex shots would be new clips, like the B-wing shots I suggested, but even then I don't think it's necessary to render the entire fleet engaging in battle.  I guess the true most complex shot would involve the Executor and several Mon Cal cruisers, but I truly don't believe it's necessary to do the whole battle in CGI.

But I admit, I don't know what I'm talking about, and maybe I'm wrong.  Out of curiosity, would it be easier on our computer resources to use physical models and blue screens and composite them in?

EDIT: I'm not sure I understand what your post is telling me.  Perhaps you are referring to actually designing the intricacies of a ship.  That does certainly sound complex.  This stuff is all unknown to me, but I am confident we can figure something out.  I really think it'd be cool if someone actually built models and filmed them.

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Happy New Year!  It's still half an hour away for me, but I'm here at home while my wife has all the fun chaperoning a church youth dance.  Just FYI, I'm virtually done with another Battle of Endor rough edit.  Nearly all the surface battle has remained the same, and my focus has been on mostly the space battle and Jerjerrod.  I should have it uploaded some time tomorrow.

 

Another thought about the final battle: we never really see the Rebels losing that badly except when the DSII fires upon them.  It'd be good to see the capital ships taking more of a beating and getting destroyed as well; all we see once fleets are mixing it up is the loss of star destroyers.

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darth_ender said:

Happy New Year!  It's still half an hour away for me, but I'm here at home while my wife has all the fun chaperoning a church youth dance.  Just FYI, I'm virtually done with another Battle of Endor rough edit.  Nearly all the surface battle has remained the same, and my focus has been on mostly the space battle and Jerjerrod.  I should have it uploaded some time tomorrow.

 

Another thought about the final battle: we never really see the Rebels losing that badly except when the DSII fires upon them.  It'd be good to see the capital ships taking more of a beating and getting destroyed as well; all we see once fleets are mixing it up is the loss of star destroyers.

Happy New year All,

Darth_Ender I had an Idea as I was looking at some of the deleted footage, and specifically referencing General Madine. My idea was this Just before the deathstar fires for the first time use the shot of Madine swinging round on his chair and then cut to DSII Dish goes green then the close up of Madine but only include the line "The Force be with us" and have the DSII then destroy the Mon Calamari ship. It would basically imply that he's on the ship that gets destroyed.

Well It might not work like that but fiddle about with it.

So Far as Vader choking Jerjerrod I think put it before when Vader goes back in to see the Emporer the second time but only use the line from Jerrjerod "It is The Emorers Orders" or whatever it is then cut to Vader Arriving in the throne room, to discuss lukes presence.

Anyway thats how I would incorporate those 2 deleted scenes.

Alot of the Lost rebels footage is in Black and white, not sure how you are planning to use that footage as I doubt it is any good. But Gunners on the Falcon might be nice. Re-using ANH Port window Footage for destroying Ties.

The Sandstorm is a complete write off IMO also you cannot do anything with still images, it's basically a reconstruction But the Matte might work well at the begining before we see C3PO and R2 head towards Jabbas Palace or afterwards and just show the Falcon Taking off with the X-wing. Keep the Dialogue from before they part ways.

Not too bothered about showing the phantom Ties but if we see one or 2 ok but like you said no special attributes..

Good Luck, with the rough cut, I look forwrd to seeing what you come up with. I will Re-cut mine again when I've seen yours.

Bit of a development I just got a new Laptop and I may have enough power to do a dvd quality edit of ROTJ, So I may go ahead with doing a cut as I have spent so long pulling this film apart now.... Would this be Helpfull? I would like to cut my own personal version... But would be happy to perhaps cut the collaborative effort script also when all has been finalised. Although I am not sure how this would all come into place with a collaboration.

For Luke Getting to Tattooine just seen this footage from Flight of the Phoenix and could perhaps draw some inspiration from this aswell as using some footage and for Background Mattes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6c7PMfwW98&feature=related

from 05.30 in ref vid Could use Footage Speeding along the ground and the drop into the Canyon After seeing this I would really like to see Luke fly out beggars canyon against 2 suns rather than just 1 here. There is also some sky shots looking down at the desert which could be incorporated coming in from the atmosphere of Tattooine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9DA8yYzop4&feature=related

Theres also some good shots here especially at the end of canyon fly throughs which could incorporate the back view of the x-wing with R-2 from ANH (DS Trench) 04.22 / 09.55 /25.16 /27.03 / 28.51/30.18 Ref Vid

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/7990/canyon5.png[/IMG]

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possible matte

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/4577/canyon4.png[/IMG]

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and another

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8225/canyon6.png[/IMG]

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http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/3341/canyon2.png[/IMG]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

This is the sort of thing I had in mind anyway with the x-wing composited onto this type of matte

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Hey, Ron.  Lots of interesting stuff in your post there.  I don't know if you've had the chance to look at this thread, but there is good talk of cleaning up the deleted scenes and even adding color, starting about here.  The color thing is not a guarantee, so I'm not relying on that as much, though I still have my hopes.  But I hear what you're saying.

As far as the sandstorm, it's not just a bunch of stills; it's a full length scene.  If you are looking at the YouTube reconstructions, those came out before the BDs and are based on previously released images and a crappy clip.  The real thing is in pretty good shape, and if cleaned up and dubbed with good impersonations, it could still be usable.  Don't give up on it.

The two scenes you are talking about including sound interesting.  I've been trying to think of how to reasonably show Madine just before his ship blows up.  He'd have to receive some report of being targeted and knowing there was no escape from his underlings before he says, "May the Force be with us all," but I like the idea.  And I think you're right in the placement of the Jerjerrod scene, though I would suggest including where Vader says, "I will await his convenience," but redub him to say what someone else suggested, "The Emperor will see me...NOW."

I like the Beggar's Canyon footage.  Arizona is a good place for desert mattes, that's for sure :)  And the vids look like good reference material too.

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darth_ender said:

Hey, Ron.  Lots of interesting stuff in your post there.  I don't know if you've had the chance to look at this thread, but there is good talk of cleaning up the deleted scenes and even adding color, starting about here.  The color thing is not a guarantee, so I'm not relying on that as much, though I still have my hopes.  But I hear what you're saying.

As far as the sandstorm, it's not just a bunch of stills; it's a full length scene.  If you are looking at the YouTube reconstructions, those came out before the BDs and are based on previously released images and a crappy clip.  The real thing is in pretty good shape, and if cleaned up and dubbed with good impersonations, it could still be usable.  Don't give up on it.

The two scenes you are talking about including sound interesting.  I've been trying to think of how to reasonably show Madine just before his ship blows up.  He'd have to receive some report of being targeted and knowing there was no escape from his underlings before he says, "May the Force be with us all," but I like the idea.  And I think you're right in the placement of the Jerjerrod scene, though I would suggest including where Vader says, "I will await his convenience," but redub him to say what someone else suggested, "The Emperor will see me...NOW."

I like the Beggar's Canyon footage.  Arizona is a good place for desert mattes, that's for sure :)  And the vids look like good reference material too.

Oh yes was looking at the Youtube footage ok,,,, Is the Audio good enough?

Instead of Dubbing the line for Vader how about use the Line from a new hope... "Insignificant against the power of the force" from the council meeting. Or find another line perhaps. Or try to string somthing together But if somone can pull off a perfect Vader impression then yes that would be he best.

About Madine if what I suggest works then no need for ship has been targeted dub give it a go!

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I always imagined right before Madine dies the shot becomes green, if you know what I mean (rhyme by the way). Like as he's saying something a green filter fades in to represent the DSII laser fire, then the ship explodes. 

As for the Vader vs. Jerjerrod scene, if we can dub it that's perfect, but otherwise I think it could work without a line from Vader at all (Jerjerrod says Vader can't see the Emperor, Vader chokes Jerjerrod, Jerjerrod changes his mind).

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DominicCobb said:

I always imagined right before Madine dies the shot becomes green, if you know what I mean (rhyme by the way). Like as he's saying something a green filter fades in to represent the DSII laser fire, then the ship explodes. 

As for the Vader vs. Jerjerrod scene, if we can dub it that's perfect, but otherwise I think it could work without a line from Vader at all (Jerjerrod says Vader can't see the Emperor, Vader chokes Jerjerrod, Jerjerrod changes his mind).

The green filter might just work good idea....

I think you could be right about the choke scene too, just have some Vader Breath then cut straight to the throne room. But also if the dub could be done and sound like the real thing or string a few exiting words together to make it work but may not need it as you say.

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DominicCobb said:

I always imagined right before Madine dies the shot becomes green, if you know what I mean (rhyme by the way). Like as he's saying something a green filter fades in to represent the DSII laser fire, then the ship explodes. 

As for the Vader vs. Jerjerrod scene, if we can dub it that's perfect, but otherwise I think it could work without a line from Vader at all (Jerjerrod says Vader can't see the Emperor, Vader chokes Jerjerrod, Jerjerrod changes his mind).

Shouldnt the filter be more of a red/orange color for the actual explosion.

John Williams score to Return of the Jedi Remastered/Remixed:

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/JOHN-WILLIAMS-Star-Wars-Episode-VI-Return-of-the-Jedi-Remastered-Edition/topic/14606/page/1/

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fishmanlee said:

DominicCobb said:

I always imagined right before Madine dies the shot becomes green, if you know what I mean (rhyme by the way). Like as he's saying something a green filter fades in to represent the DSII laser fire, then the ship explodes. 

As for the Vader vs. Jerjerrod scene, if we can dub it that's perfect, but otherwise I think it could work without a line from Vader at all (Jerjerrod says Vader can't see the Emperor, Vader chokes Jerjerrod, Jerjerrod changes his mind).

Shouldnt the filter be more of a red/orange color for the actual explosion.

Well I was thinking before the explosion, so the green would be the laser fire. But that would work too.

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fishmanlee said:

As promised:

Return of the Jedi

The Lightsaber Restored Ending

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_K8HL0psC8

Did it get chopped off short in the special edition? I never noticed the synth lines after this either with the AT-ST the scene has more impact with that sting..... Does it work with the sfx on top though and the laugh? Or is it a bit busy...