Collaborative Fanediting: An ROTJ Proposition (BACK ON TRACK WITH EMANSWFAN AT THE HELM--SEE POST 1488 OR OP FOR A LINK!) — Page 7

jonathan7 said:

Just my two cents here, but I really like the idea of Boba Fett being killed by Luke, think it harkens back nicely to Mace killing Jango. I also would argue to keep the original Luke and Leia conversation rather than changing it...

Thanks still yet to see if the complete sequence of Bobba's demise is totally possible...but I don't think it's too ambitious but like you said calls back to what happened before and atleast Bobba gets a hit in also.

Since doing a rough cut of the third act I am all for making Luke want to protect leia but not telling her she is his Sister but it's not all down to me so we shall see what the final decision is, Darth Ender will finish his script and we will go from there. Nothing is set in Stone yet

jonathan7 said:

Just my two cents here, but I really like the idea of Boba Fett being killed by Luke, think it harkens back nicely to Mace killing Jango. I also would argue to keep the original Luke and Leia conversation rather than changing it...

I actually really like the idea of Luke offing Boba as well.

Just my 2 cents)

credit to original Angel's mockup.

Evin Jade said:

Just my 2 cents)

 

credit to original Angel's mockup.

lol, did not realise it had already been realised, although I am thinking of storyboarding the shot where he get's up flipped and reversed for a few frames composited on Lukes swing of the lightsabre just before it comes off so it looks as if he is flinching a little to late....

whilst editing it I realised only after the obvious removals of Han hitting his pack you could actually loop bobba flying from barge to barge after luke makes his jump and fighting him forever :)

I'm conservative in part because I feel concerned about what we are asking of our unpaid two CGI talents (as opposed to a paid team of CGI animators).  These things seem awfully tough to me.

But I won't speak for anyone else.  If they like the ideas and are willing to do it, I wouldn't at all stand in their way.  I definitely think this is a better way to treat ol' Boba.

We were talking about the Lost Rebel footage in the deleted scene thread.  While watching it (not available at the moment), I noticed some lines that seem to reveal some sort of mission objective.  I remember some lines about taking out a tower.  What objective might this have represented? If possible, how might we even possibly use these lines to reconstruct this plot point in our edit?  It doesn't necessarily have be what they had in mind (for instance, we could use it to show fighters attacking a star destroyer bridge tower (maybe even the Executor!), the shield generator specifically, a cannon tower on the Death Star, or anything like that.

Another discussion (I can't remember where I read it, probably somewhere in the ESB and ROTJ wishlist thread) discussed the inconsistent appearing cockpits vs the ships.  It'd be nice to better match the dialogue of the pilots with the appropriate ships.

But timdiggerm brought up that it might be best to simply film new pilots.  Anyone know where costumes might be obtained for the various pilots?  And I suppose we could composite in the actual cockpits.

Hey guys! This thread has got so good! Loving the ideas and changes.

I just reuploaded SSWR stuff to googledocs as youtube was being rubbish.

As usual, if there are any problems let me know, and if anyone has any of his vids that I don't have double let me know!

Part 0
Part 6
Part 7
Part 8
Part 10
Unfinished Ideas

darth_ender said:

We were talking about the Lost Rebel footage in the deleted scene thread.  While watching it (not available at the moment), I noticed some lines that seem to reveal some sort of mission objective.  I remember some lines about taking out a tower.  What objective might this have represented? If possible, how might we even possibly use these lines to reconstruct this plot point in our edit?  It doesn't necessarily have be what they had in mind (for instance, we could use it to show fighters attacking a star destroyer bridge tower (maybe even the Executor!), the shield generator specifically, a cannon tower on the Death Star, or anything like that.

Another discussion (I can't remember where I read it, probably somewhere in the ESB and ROTJ wishlist thread) discussed the inconsistent appearing cockpits vs the ships.  It'd be nice to better match the dialogue of the pilots with the appropriate ships.

But timdiggerm brought up that it might be best to simply film new pilots.  Anyone know where costumes might be obtained for the various pilots?  And I suppose we could composite in the actual cockpits.

could re-use some footage from "a new hope" for the towers might work quite well...Better to have the deleted scenes restored if possible..... What's the audio like on those clips? every thing got -redubbed in ROTJ anyway so it may all need re-dubbing unless somone can do good fish face impressions.

If the source audio is not very good it can be hard to clean up whilst maintaining good sound quality....

all my ideas will generally incorporate 2 mixed elements background foreground composites and an audio mix occasionally

Only want to use existing footage I'm not looking to do anything too fancy :) like loads of CGI modelling would make it too much like the PT anyway and be a sore thumb.

also just occurred to me the lost rebel pilot footage might be better used a way to see the rebels slowly be destroyed, if the Audio is unsalvageable rather than a majority of the time they are on top.

Angels Mattes look very good and would be a nice enhancement.

@ben__danger some good ideas there my fav has to be chewie sliding down the rope to get to AT-ST is a vast improvement!

I watched the SSWR videos.  Too bad the rest aren't available.  I'm not a fan of all his ideas, but some of the dubbed lines were interesting, particularly 3PO's lines.  I really liked how he made the Ewoks appear a little more ferocious, having collected stormtrooper helmets.

So I am nearly done, working on the Battle of Endor, which I already have a pretty good idea of what I want.  I might be able to have the script itself done by today.  I still want to add a few pictures from the wishlist.  But I imagine this should be all completed and posted for your reading either today or tomorrow.

For those who are interested, I had a nice anniversary.  But I seem to have caught my daughter's stomach bug late in the evening while watching Hugo in 3D at the theater.  Bummer!

So I decided to take a look at this thread and its linked blog as to Why ROTJ sucks (a position I don't agree with, but still).  My purpose in doing so was to see if we could address common complaints, even if I personally hold no qualms with a particular issue.  Some things we might want to address.  Any thoughts?

My personal considerations:

Maybe we should allow Lando to die.  I actually really like his character and it would be emotional to kill off a major protagonist.  It'd be rather easy editing to kill him, but depending on how we conclude our edit, I'm not sure how we'd be able to impress the weight of his loss might play on our characters, especially Han.  We'd definitely want to show that he is saddened by the loss of his friend and his ship.

I don't think we could remove the Ewoks and keep a decent film.  But we can make them more of a threat.  Dubbing them with more ferocious sounds and removing all the hooping and hollering might help.  Removing a lot fo the humor surrounding them would too.  It might be too tedious, but it may be worthwhile to alter their faces a tad to make them less cute.  That sure would be a lot of tinkering for only a minor effect, though.  Still, we have some good options.

Luke's and Ben's conversation should have been a little harsher.  The script indeed shows a more dramatic argument, but the end result is surprisingly calm.  Perhaps we can keep the lines, but dub a couple of them to sound angrier.  "Why didn't you tell me?  You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father," and, "A certain point of view?" might be all it takes.

Harrison Ford's acting is admittedly weaker than before, but I don't think it's awful.  If necessary, I suppose he might be dubbed in a couple of lines as well, but I'm not sure if we'd need to.

Luke/Leia as siblings.  I don't know what to do about this.  We could remove the plot point, but then how do we explain how she ultimately chooses Han?  I don't hate it, but I can see the complaint.  I just don't know how we could successfully remove it without a glaring loose thread.

There are some bad mattes, but I imagine we'll fix it.

Everything else I don't see as a major problem.  I think this guy is being overly dramatic if he calls ROTJ the worst of all 6 films.  But at least we have some more possible points we can improve upon in the film.

Except for the ewoks, none of those things have ever bothered me. It's a great movie that can be improved upon, not a terrible movie like the prequels.

I think another thing that would greatly benefit the ewoks is to make them TALK more, and not just make whooping noises. They actually sound kind of threatening when they speak seriously in their language. 

@Darth_Ender

You make a good point that no good guy characters die, but we lose Darth Vader and the Emporer in one fell swoop with no form of sacrifice from any of the rebel characters.... If Lando was to Die he should still make it out the deathstar II but be on fire which destroys the millennium falcon in a later shot. Like a Big fire ball going down. It would also be symbolic like the flight of the phoenix which in mythology means the start of somthing new.

wiki:-The phoenix has long been presented as a symbol of rebirth, immortality, and renewal.

I think this is possibly a good direction to take. We don't need to worry like Lucus did at the time about the next Movie now we know that there will never be one.No need to show the misery of Han either that's war. Han already looked at it like it was the last time he would see the falcon so this was planned and changed later on probably. But if it stays the same as in the original is good too. Possible music scoring over Lando and the falson's destruction would be the creshendo / dramatic pert of Princess Leia theme, this would also be representitive of Leia's new role after the events that have transpired. There is no way you could destroy the falcon quickly it would have to have a massive impact... It really would need to be made affecting Visually and drawn out.

Cannot remove ewoks... Unfortunatley

Try to play with what dialogue we have of Alec Guiness perhaps there is another line from either ESB or ANH that could help this. I liked the part about "your friends ended up saving you..."

Han solo's Jelousy is Lame the Love triangle needs to go it was already resolved in ESB then re-intergrated into ROTJ when Leia frees Han from the Carbonite "somone who loves you" end of Love triangle IMO and I have tried to show you that it's more interesting to keep Leia in the dark about Luke being her brother... She realises she has power she just has not figured it out yet.

I don't personally feel the need to show celebrations all over the galaxy, But on Endor is acceptable and would be happy for the movie to end with the funeral pyre.

I surprised myself with the rough cut of last act albeit before you pointed out the shield was not down when the executor crashes into DSII, but what do you make of this being lukes exit point? I think you need to do your own rough cut regardless of script so you can see why I chose to do what I did. my rough cut needs a revision in light of your respose as I made a booboo.

Don't worry too much about leaving a loose end or 2 it gives a movie more life after you finished watching it... Most of the best films don't explain everything and leave it up to the audience to interpret meanings or what happens now?....or what about this?... And gives you another reason to Ponder and watch it again.

Hope this helps you out with your script btw happy anniversary!

I just had a thought, but I definitely need Angel's opinion on it:

What if we didn't show Anakin as part of the Force ghost trio?  What if we just see Obi-Wan and Yoda, and Luke smiles.  Then we show the funeral pyer afterwards, and while Vader's armor burns, we see his Force ghost appear alone.  That does several things emotionally speaking: 1) Anakin is alone, thus we see he is redeemed, but it may not appear that he automatically is granted Nirvana after his many past deeds; 2) It appears that in a sense, with the burning of Vader's armor, Vader is truly killed and Anakin is released; 3) It appears sort of like a final sad goodbye and making peace between father and son.

I really am excited about this idea, but I wonder if it's possible to pull it off.  And maybe I'm the only one who'd like it anyway.  Thoughts?  Can it be done?

I'd Like to say Happy Christmas to all on this thread and let you know that ROTJ means alot to me It was the first Star wars film I saw in the cinema, if not perhaps the first time I even went to cinema at 7 years old and after seeing it, me and my Dad sat and waited for the next showing and watched it all over again It is a nice memory.

Good Ideas Darth Ender just read your idea and I like it, more realistic Anakin was a wild card...Why they should all be standing together as mates all of a sudden is beyond me too... I think it is a simple composite nothing to difficult to do :) I just thought also why do we even need to see Anakin at all? Why should he be redeemed after all he did? How about he does not get redemption and it was too late. he already admits that to Luke... hmmm That's why he begs luke to tell his Sister "you were right about me... You were right"

Anyways later on

Vladius, I agree this is a great movie.  I've always liked it, and many of the fixes are more to address other people's concerns.  If most of us feel we don't need to change most of these issues raised by that guy, I'm totally okay with that.

Aalenfae, I think that'd be great.  They definitely need some redubbing so they don't seem so childish.  I don't mind the cute faces too much, if we can at least show that they have a truly dangerous side.

Ron, thanks for the anniversary well-wishes :)  I see your point about the love triangle.  Again, it's never something that bothered me either.  Your explanation makes sense.  Also, I don't much care for the celebrations throughout the galaxy either.  When you read my completed script, let me know what you think, though, because I'm not sure how easily we can remove it if we cut the Force ghosts at the end and finish with the funeral pyre.  However, my above comment would get around that and could leave out the celebrations, if the effects are possible

My big difficulty with your cut is separating the various stories.  I know it's busy, but I don't think it's effective story-telling to separate the various climactic points.  Story-wise, it makes more sense to me to keep them occurring simultaneously.  That's one of my problems with Spence's version.  I hope I don't offend you by saying that.  But I really think that when we're done, we'll have a final product, plus several individual items.  We can all piece together our own edits if we prefer it a different way.  And heck, I may be in the minority in my story telling preference here, so it may end up your way anyway :)

I agree with loads of your ideas but make a rough cut for yourself, and see how it works we only have the original footage available to us and perhaps playing with other elements or other existing footage soureces to fill it out. What might look good on paper might not work as well as onscreen and you will also see by music, and sound what can and cannot be done or what will and won't work

Thats my Advice, let that help dictate your vision of the script.. I have spent the Last week tearing this movie apart in my Brain, trying to make it the best it perhaps can be... And you have helped me see many things about it I never thought of.

It will all get worked out I'm sure.

I actually don't think Anakin should appear as a force ghost at all for many reasons. First of all, it makes no sense that Sebastian Shaw (as he appears) would be the ghost. It makes a little more sense that Hayden Christensen would be the ghost, but it would be confusing to people who watch 4-6 and to Luke actually. Any way, I know Qui-Gon was able to discover the power beyond the grave, but for Kenobi and Yoda they needed to learn. It almost makes sense that they could have taught Anakin after he was dead, but then why didn't they teach the other dead Jedi? The biggest reason why I'm against it though is that if Anakin doesn't turn into a ghost, it makes his redemption much more bittersweet. When ROTJ ends, Vader's dead and you're actually sad. Then, oh wait a minute, ROTJ is a happy movie, now Vader's a ghost too! Vader was really evil at one time. I feel there needs to be a consequence for that. Having him be dead, and unable to find life after life, would be a much more poignant end to the saga.

I think it would be fine with Mr. Shaw.
I don't understand the need to make the ending more "dark." It's a happy time. The suffering takes place earlier in ESB and in the rest of the movie, where a main character is frozen for a long length of time, and multiple main characters are betrayed, tortured and lose friends (and limbs!) in battle. Princess Leia is forced into a degrading costume to titillate a den of criminals. Luke has to deal with the prospect of turning into his father, or worse, his sister turning into his father, as well as his father's death.
There's no reason for an exhausting bittersweet ending when it can be just sweet. It's a drain on the audience to introduce another complication when everything is over.

Vladius said:

I think it would be fine with Mr. Shaw.
I don't understand the need to make the ending more "dark." It's a happy time. The suffering takes place earlier in ESB and in the rest of the movie, where a main character is frozen for a long length of time, and multiple main characters are betrayed, tortured and lose friends (and limbs!) in battle. Princess Leia is forced into a degrading costume to titillate a den of criminals. Luke has to deal with the prospect of turning into his father, or worse, his sister turning into his father, as well as his father's death.
There's no reason for an exhausting bittersweet ending when it can be just sweet. It's a drain on the audience to introduce another complication when everything is over.

What is it that made ESB the best of the trilogy by most peoples opinions... That it was Darker...I don't think that's the answer your right on that Vladius but it did shock us with revelations, and we did care about the characters and whilst showing us failure it also showed us the triumphs. That is more what I was thinking and as Dominic said and darth ender peoples actions must have consequences..Otherwise War is just far too smug.

Every main character who died got made into a ghost bar the emporer...Not too shabby for a full on war that would decide the fate of the entire galaxy.  Just exploring possibilities anyway

That's the thing - Star Wars isn't a war documentary. It's got "Wars" in the title, and the backdrop of the main events is a war, but at its core it's a fantasy story. There's no scenes of somber reflection on the death of all the stormtroopers in the Death Star at the end of the original film. There's no rebels who show up with PTSD as a result of the battle on Hoth. You could explore those themes, and many authors have, but that's not the direction that the actual movies go.

The war is scenery for much bigger events and emotions. A commoner realizes he is destined for something more, and rescues a princess. A scoundrel learns to care about others. People fall in love in desperate situations. A mentor passes on his knowledge. etc. etc.
These things could all happen during peacetime, with the war serving to heighten the stakes. If there's no story or plot reason for something to happen, then it shouldn't happen, war or no war.

Well, I am so close on the script, but this is surprisingly time-consuming, and I really don't think I'll have it done by today.  I really am trying to get this done quickly, but I have to take care of my family as well, and Christmas is tomorrow.

Ronster, you've had a surprising change of heart.  I am trying to consider how to change things while bearing in mind the convenience of our special effects team.  I'm sure we can try a few things that are plenty different from the original.  We just can't go overboard.  I really appreciate your enthusiasm.

Dominic, when editing the OT, I don't always keep the PT in mind.  However, even from a PT perspective, it seems clear that learning continues once a Force user has died.  Qui-Gon learned to be a Force ghost after his death.  Given that he sought out Anakin, and given that Anakin is the Chosen One, I don't see a problem with him teaching Anakin that nifty trick and Anakin using it at his first opportunity.  I am religious and don't believe in deathbed repentance, but for the sake of the movie, I feel that it makes a happier ending, and I agree with Vladius that a happier ending to the whole saga is best.

But still, assuming we keep the ghosts, what do you guys think of moving Anakin's to the pyre scene?

I definitely understand that you are busy, and that is perfectly fair, Angel.  Glad you're interested and excited.  We look forward to any of your comments, and I'll get that script up soon with your pictures.  I promise :)