Of course, if anyone else knows a better way to correct the GOUT than what I'm doing, feel free to suggest something!
I know a way but unfortunately it will involve breaking into Lucasfilm, theft, and a possible jail term.
frank678 said:
Of course, if anyone else knows a better way to correct the GOUT than what I'm doing, feel free to suggest something!
I know a way but unfortunately it will involve breaking into Lucasfilm, theft, and a possible jail term.
Burglary, theft, jail... the dark side of the force are they. :)
You_Too,
Awesome answer. Thanks! I can totally relate to burning yourself out on hobbies.
-DT
After working with this for some hours, I managed to find some settings that worked well on all three movies!
At first they all came out with a bit of a cyan tint, giving them a look similar to the 70mm scans, but in the end I chose to go for balance instead and added some more red, since the cyan in the 70mm scans is probably because of fading. The only difference between the movies is that I set the saturation higher for SW since it was more desaturated than the other two.
I also added a setting in the script that corrects the aspect ratio. I will change it to a more proper setting later to avoid the loss in resolution that it causes.
Check the screenshots out in the first post, and tell me what you think!
I'll have to double check properly later but my initial impression is they are all too blue now. I prefer the Star Wars settings you had just before this updated one (which bested the savestarwars.com gout correct and lee thorogood technicolor project to my eyes). My sense is that because you're recalibrating bit by bit and trying to get the best overall balance your eyes might get used to one setting that to others in a quick glance may not appear right.
This is only to my eyes/mind though, so please cross reference it with other feedback...
p.s. I guess this could become incredibly frustrating but you've got to go in all different directions to be able to find the middle point at which it all balances out the best. I think with Star Wars you might have already had it. Just don't burn out on this!!!
They look OK. Did you also change the script according to your newest settings ? I'd like to do a small test encode to see it in motion
frank678 said:
I'll have to double check properly later but my initial impression is they are all too blue now. I prefer the Star Wars settings you had just before this updated one (which bested the savestarwars.com gout correct and lee thorogood technicolor project to my eyes).
I think the reason why you think they're too blue might be the vibrance setting I'm using. You see, it digs up the least saturated colors which you sometimes couldn't even see in the raw GOUT. (It even digs up some minor color noise that seems to be all over the movies) Also keep in mind that the GOUT is sourced from a film print which might have been slightly faded as well.
And I'll tell you exactly what I changed compared to the old settings: I increased the vibrance to make it even more saturated and dig up more "lost" colors. I added a curve which increases red gamma so the picture doesn't come out as cyan-tinted as it did with the old settings. (I checked this closely so I didn't overdo it, but made it balanced) I also decreased the amount of red in yellows, to compensate for the saturation and red gamma increase.
That said, when comparing these two settings, they are not that different, and the new one does look better. To prove this I made a comparison of screenshots. Each shot in it is divided. Left half is old settings and right half is new. If you have a hard time noticing it, check the shot of the jawas carrying R2.
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/8991/differenceo.jpg
I also want to tell you that I tried some settings where I almost completely removed the cyan tint which is seen here and there, but the movie came out lifeless and desaturated-feeling. I think the movie probably can't look much better unless a better source is used. I believe we have the film print to blame. Though I'd say my settings improve the GOUT a lot, and I'm proud I've come this far!
pittrek said:
They look OK. Did you also change the script according to your newest settings ? I'd like to do a small test encode to see it in motion
I will make a test encode sometime soon. I've updated post 4 with the new scripts and link for the curve files.
You_Too,
Just wanted to chime in and say that the GOUT colors never looked so good!
When are you going to take a stab at the Technidisc?
-G
Thank you g-force!
We'll see if I do the Technidisc sometime, I still haven't downloaded that version yet.
You_Too, nice grading here! This latest change is a great improvement imho. I think you're pretty close here, whites look fairly accurate but the flesh tones are still a little too orange, at least on my monitor. Star Wars looks the best with these settings but ESB suffers more. Vader's lightsaber shot in ESB looks a little too orangy red to me so i'm sure reducing the yellow and red slightly should help all three films imho. Apart from that single change, you're pretty much spot on colour grading from where i'm standing. Hope this helps.
That said, when comparing these two settings, they are not that different, and the new one does look better. To prove this I made a comparison of screenshots. Each shot in it is divided. Left half is old settings and right half is new. If you have a hard time noticing it, check the shot of the jawas carrying R2.
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/8991/differenceo.jpg
Damn the difference must be fine - I can't tell one side of a shot from the other at all. Can you post a screenshot with the new settings of a shot already in the thread that had the last settings. I respect your judgement that you reached the most accurate balance thus far, but I want to go back and double check if what I think I see, I really am seeing... (or if i'm losing my mind)
It's o.k. I can see the difference now- in the sky behind the landspeeder being stopped by stormtroopers in Mos Eisley.
My preference is still for the previous setting - I prefer the old lighter blue sky to the new darker blue sky
OMEN!-_-! said:
You_Too, nice grading here! This latest change is a great improvement imho. I think you're pretty close here, whites look fairly accurate but the flesh tones are still a little too orange, at least on my monitor. Star Wars looks the best with these settings but ESB suffers more. Vader's lightsaber shot in ESB looks a little too orangy red to me so i'm sure reducing the yellow and red slightly should help all three films imho. Apart from that single change, you're pretty much spot on colour grading from where i'm standing. Hope this helps.
Thanks for the feedback, I at least won't reduce any red and yellow using curves, because I've found a very nice balance and the greyscale all over the movies seems pretty accurate when point sampling in photoshop, RGB being very close to each other most of the time.
Also with the lightsaber, don't trust your eyes too much. I analyzed the color in that shot and it's red with just as much green as blue in it, so it is not orange-tinted at all, but a clean red.
Always remember I'm point/average sampling the screenshots a lot in photoshop to make sure the greyscale is balanced, since it's the most important thing for the colors to look correct.
The skin tones being slightly "orange-ish" in SW is simply because first of all, like I said before the reds blend together with other colors and when trying to find balance, some elements in some shots will suffer slightly while some won't.
I've also seen some screenshots from theatrical prints where the skin looked orange too, so the source print for the GOUT might even have been like that. And remember that the skin colors are very pink in the raw GOUT, so a slight shift towards orange was necessary in some scenes. You see it even more since SW needed more saturation than the other movies as well, to be able to squeeze more detail out of the least saturated colors.
Either way, I found a good balance and I'll probably stick with it, unless I get some very technical proof which convinces me to think again. :)
frank678 said:
It's o.k. I can see the difference now- in the sky behind the landspeeder being stopped by stormtroopers in Mos Eisley.
My preference is still for the previous setting - I prefer the old lighter blue sky to the new darker blue sky
I understand, everyone has their preferences, but I'll probably stick with the current settings since the greyscale at least seems to show I've found a good balance, and it doesn't look cyan-tinted anymore.
EDIT: And here comes a little test clip!
http://www.multiupload.com/HJCE5C19AK
I also want to add to what I said before that I have a monitor which I calibrated with a colorimeter, which is should I say almost a must when working with color correction. This might also be why you guys think I should add blue, or remove yellow, or remove red etc. You might not even see the same colors I see!
Before I settle for some final settings I will probably watch the movies sometime on my TV which is even more accurately calibrated, to make sure it looks good and balanced.
EDIT: And another addition! A couple before/after shots from the scenes in that clip:
You_Too said:
We'll see if I do the Technidisc sometime, I still haven't downloaded that version yet.
Do it, I dare you.
Though, keep in mind, it does have a very Technicolor feel to it; personally, I wouldn't try to stray too far from it. The color also fluctuates from frame to frame quite a bit, I don't know if there's any "cure-all" fix for that sort of thing.
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Asaki said:
You_Too said:
We'll see if I do the Technidisc sometime, I still haven't downloaded that version yet.
Do it, I dare you.
Though, keep in mind, it does have a very Technicolor feel to it; personally, I wouldn't try to stray too far from it. The color also fluctuates from frame to frame quite a bit, I don't know if there's any "cure-all" fix for that sort of thing.
Hmm... a Technicolor correction may be quite interesting. Though it is not as high resolution as the GOUT, there is absolutely none of the bothersome smearing. I would be very interested in such a release since I feel msycamore did a good job capturing it. Furthermore, the Technidisc is much more saturated, unlike the desaturated GOUT.
Or you guys could always wait until I do my own color corrected version straight from the raw files, I wouldn't recommend to re-render my DVD release with a new color setting, not just because of the quality loss a re-encode would present, but there is simply too much chroma noise on it, I don't think the resulting image would be that pleasant. But feel free to do it if you want to.
Your color corrected GOUT pics look very good, You_Too.
As the GOUT transfers have white clipping already, I would be careful to not introduce even more. The whites seems to be a little hot in a few places.
We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions.
Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com
msycamore said:
Or you guys could always wait until I do my own color corrected version straight from the raw files, I wouldn't recommend to re-render my DVD release with a new color setting, not just because of the quality loss a re-encode would present, but there is simply too much chroma noise on it, I don't think the resulting image would be that pleasant. But feel free to do it if you want to.
Yeah, I'm not going to do it now anyway. It will be interesting to see your new version! Actually I haven't even seen the old one yet, since I've been too busy with color correction... haha
msycamore said:
Your color corrected GOUT pics look very good, You_Too.
As the GOUT transfers have white clipping already, I would be careful to not introduce even more. The whites seems to be a little hot in a few places.
Thanks, and yeah I am very careful. When doing curve adjustments I make sure that whites are preserved, so when you see something that looks clipped, it is just pushed towards white but nothing gets clipped. Same with the shadow detail. I'm preserving both the white and black levels.
Also, this kind of gamma curve adjustments can fool the eye to think that details get clipped when they don't. I found a good way to preserve them so don't worry!
Ok, so for this christmas eve, here are some comparisons using some brand new settings.
This time I really feel like I've nailed it. I've balanced the gamma so that details in faces and such things are much more visible like in the theatrical print, yet I've managed to keep black and white levels without clipping. Even though dark parts of the picture are slightly darker, it's more gamma balanced and you can still find all the fine grain in the shadows.
So look at these screenshots, they're simply beautiful. And have a merry christmas everyone!
I've also updated the first post with these settings used on all three movies.
Those look the best to me, too. Nice job.
And in the time of greatest despair, there shall come a savior, and he shall be known as the Son of the Suns.
Wow! I don't know how you did it but everything seems to have more presence with this new change. All the faces seem to be more full-bodied, like real solid objects and less like flat images - how did you do this?
You gotta post a clip with this setting!
The advances you have made since your first attempt are impressive - this one is a major advance.
Just had another look = this latest setting is awesome!
Damn I want to watch these now!!
frank678 said:
Wow! I don't know how you did it but everything seems to have more presence with this new change. All the faces seem to be more full-bodied, like real solid objects and less like flat images - how did you do this?
Yeah I agree! I ended up with this by trying more changes, simple as that!
frank678 said:
You gotta post a clip with this setting!
The advances you have made since your first attempt are impressive - this one is a major advance.
I will post a clip soon for sure. And yeah, there's been a lot of advances but that's how it is. Working progressively one eventually ends up with a good result. Takes some time but in this case it sure was worth it.
EDIT: I made a couple minor new updates for the script. The first one is I lowered the saturation just slightly, so the movies don't feel too oversaturated. I got that feeling especially with skin tones. Now it feels a bit more natural but still more colorful than the raw GOUT.
I also changed the values for the resize at the bottom of the script. Now it corrects the aspect ratio while keeping all vertical lines of pixels. Though it's for the PAL version, of course.
EDIT: After weighing pros and cons I decided to leave the saturation. When I lowered it, it took away a bit of that overall theatrical print look. With saturation unchanged, the movies look more like those 70mm scans and I think that's not a bad thing!
EDIT: I made a couple minor new updates for the script. The first one is I lowered the saturation just slightly, so the movies don't feel too oversaturated. I got that feeling especially with skin tones. Now it feels a bit more natural but still more colorful than the raw GOUT.
I also changed the values for the resize at the bottom of the script. Now it corrects the aspect ratio while keeping all vertical lines of pixels. Though it's for the PAL version, of course.
EDIT: After weighing pros and cons I decided to leave the saturation. When I lowered it, it took away a bit of that overall theatrical print look. With saturation unchanged, the movies look more like those 70mm scans and I think that's not a bad thing!
When I first saw this newest update it took me a few minutes to adjust to this level of saturation (as I had never seen the Gout with so much solidity my initial reaction was "is this right?"). However, once I put aside my pre- conceived idea of what was possible/how faded the film print must be, I can't see any other way but to accept that this WORKS. The effect of having all the colours work together so that objects now appear to curve and round and extend in solid three dimensionals creates the illusion of real life including radically extending the depth of field within images. With this setting there is infinitely greater sense of the space/distance between objects. It was like all previous adjustments were in flat 2D and now it looks 3D.
Now, whether the colour palette exactly matches what was in the originally print - I can't say*. But I would be wary of making changes that flatten this depth you've now acheived. AND this setting also improves all three films which makes me think there must be something intrinsically 'right' about it.
*I got "The Making of Star Wars" by JW Rinzler today and I realized probably everyting I imagined about the colours is wrong. Example: in the book its got pictures of the interior of ben's hut with the caption saying it was shot in England - when I had imagined it was shot in the Tunsia and so have natural coloured desert light. What a fool i was!
Frank, you're right. I think the reason I wanted to experiment with lowering the saturation was that I'm also used to the GOUT as it is, very desaturated, and it takes a while to get used to the vibrant colors. But just like you I realized that it indeed looks very good! It's probably much closer to how the print used for the GOUT actually looked when it was brand new.
Now if there was only a way to completely remove smearing!
EDIT: I wanted to add some more comparison shots to this post. This time I'm comparing some of the famous 70mm scans against the GOUT with my latest settings, with some comments about them.
In this shot, the shots match quite well except slightly different gamma. Of course I'll keep my version this bright since I don't want to crush the shadow detail.
In this shot, the 70mm scan has an obvious green tint, but also shows the reds being brighter. That's because I had to reduce the reds to get rid of the oversaturated reds in some scenes and to make skin tones look more correct.
The first thing you notice here is that my version has more green in it, which not only makes it look more realistic, but also a bit brighter. In the 70mm scan, the difference in gamma is most clearly seen when looking at Han and Luke's hair.
Those who look close can see that the red lights on the wall panel are pink tinted in the 70mm scan and orange tinted in mine. That color "error" is in the GOUT even without my settings, and I can't do anything to fix it without ruining skin tones.
Here the most obvious thing is the difference in color of the pilots' clothes. That's because of the same thing as the last comparison: My version has more green in it.
After a lot of analyzing the colors of ESB and the other movies, I've come to the conclusion that mine is more correct, (Or at least more natural) just check the skin tones. The greyscale in my version is also much more balanced than in the 70mm scans. I think the loss of green in the 70mm scans might be because of fading. (Or did it really look like this in the cinema? Would be weird simply because of the pink skin tones in my opinion.)
Same thing here but less obvious: More green in my version. The 70mm scan also has a gamma curve resulting in a darker picture with some loss of shadow detail. Just look at the panels on wall to the left of Chewie.
I won't include any comparison with the ROTJ 70mm scans since first of all they're not many, and second, they're so red tinted that they aren't even useful for a comparison.
And here comes another sample clip from SW: http://www.multiupload.com/J9TB5L2E54
For this clip I've used the latest settings + modded g-force script.
