The thread where we make enemies out of friends, aka the abortion debate thread — Page 3

darth_ender said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

I used to be a firm anti-abortionist. In my POV abortion was to be avoided at all costs unless there was absolute 100% certainty that neither mother nor child would be able to survive pregnancy.

After I began to doubt my religious convictions my views began to grow progressively more liberal, until I finally lost all faith in my religion and did a complete 180.

These days I consider myself a firm antinatalist.

So if I am to understand you correctly, you are  completely opposed to birth, and thus favor human extinction?  I know you've got a bizarre sense of humor, so I'm going to assume you're kidding with your last sentence.

darth_ender said:

 If I believe that the end result will save more innocent lives in the long run, I feel that the ends may unfortunately justify the means [though not originally tied to your concerns Frink, this worldview justifies abortion in the above mentioned rare cases to me].

 

TV's Frink wrote: What the fuck, none? Go away.

Upset that both our alternative contributions to this thread are unappreciated.

So now let's get into Financing!

Using the chart from the previous page:

We've got 41.6 million abortions.  So how much per person is that to financially support off to the USDA.GOV's 'Cost of Raising a Child Calculator':

http://www.cnpp.usda.gov/calculator.htm

(notice how there is no Zero parent option.  I would speculate that government would need to spend more to get an equal level of care*)  *only rarely orphanage care can be considered on par with the medium quality parents.

So 1 person = $9,714/year let's just round to 10 grand.

10k * 18 years * 41.6 million = 7.5 trillion (now) dollars.  required every year.

And there's a reason why killing people through abortion is legal.  No one's interested in funding this societal debt.

There are 312 million people in the US, so 7.5T/312M = 24k per person per year to financially support all these people.  Now yes this is a world problem so let's divide by the 7billion people (ignoring the collection of money from most of the world's population who don't earn enough to feed themselves)  now were down to 1,070 dollars a year.

Ain't happening folks.

theprequelsrule said:

Mrebo said:

There is no denying the general right of a person to exercise autonomy over their body. But like all rights - it is not absolute.

Actually, I think it is absolute. Hence my pro-choice stance. Again, I'm not saying it is a pleasant event. But my own values are not typical of many people.

so you think the right of a person to exercise autonomy is absolute?   But what if that right conflicts with another person's right to do the same?   Abortion is one of those times.  The right of the mother to exercise autonomy over body conflicts with the child's right to the same.   In order to protect the mother's rights, you would violate the child's.

theprequelsrule said:

Look, it is an emotional issue, but the fact of the matter is that we value the lives of children because of sentimental and not logical reasons.

huh?

theprequelsrule said:

What is more tragic, when an intelligent adult, whom his parents and society have invested incredible amounts of time and money in dies or when an unborn and unwanted child dies?

I don't care if the child is wanted or not, a child's death is still tragic.    But I would have to say that the adult's death is more tragic than the unborn child, hence why I am ok with abortions when the mother's life is at stake.

theprequelsrule said:

Well, it depends on how you value human life. All of us value human life, but I guess I differ in how I determine that value.

yes, I think you are.

theprequelsrule said:

I guess when it comes down to it, I don't believe that life holds intrinsic value, so a child basically has no value other than the happiness it brings to it's parents.

and this I completely disagree with.  I believe every human life has value.   A child does not solely exist to bring happiness to the parents.   I don't know how you can say that a child's life has no value just because it doesn't bring happiness to the parents.   I don't get it at all.

theprequelsrule said:

So if they are not going to be happy, and the child is going to be miserable as a result, maybe an abortion is the right decision.

there you go playing god again.   One person deciding for another when the other person is better off dead than alive.  One person deciding that when they believe another person is better of dead than alive, it is ok to kill that person.       

theprequelsrule said:

I'll stop there and see if anyone wants further elaboration on my point.

feel free to continue or stop as you wish. 

theprequelsrule said:

It looks like I won't be making many friends around here anymore.

just because many disagree here doesn't mean we can't be friends.   As long as you disagree reasonably and politely, there should be no problem.

none said:

TV's Frink wrote: What the fuck, none? Go away.

Upset that both our alternative contributions to this thread are unappreciated.

I think what upset Frink was your posting of the dead aborted fetus.   He doesn't like to see pictures like that.   It reminds him of his own child which was stillborn.  

Warbler wrote: He doesn't like to see pictures like that.

Most people don't like to see pictures of dead fetuses.  But they are a part of the debate. (and the topic held out the promise of no holds barred)  I disagree with the moderation.  There are people out on the streets showing similar pictures where I live, making their point.  Seeing death is not bad.  The 700 Club periodically shows images like this on cable tv.  (the ABC Family channel btw)  Sweeping them under the rug is just that.  It's sad, maybe, when breeding goes off, but when your sterile, this debate is just phunnie.

none said:

Warbler wrote: He doesn't like to see pictures like that.

Most people don't like to see pictures of dead fetuses.  But they are a part of the debate. (and the topic held out the promise of no holds barred)  I disagree with the moderation.  There are people out on the streets showing similar pictures where I live, making their point.  Seeing death is not bad.  The 700 Club periodically shows images like this on cable tv.  (the ABC Family channel btw)  Sweeping them under the rug is just that.  It's sad, maybe, when breeding goes off, but when your sterile, this debate is just phunnie.

Alexrd said:

However, my view has nothing to do with at what stage is the fetus considered to be a human being or not, but it's about responsibility. As such, I don't understand the "pro-choice" argument. People did have a choice. Getting pregnant is only a consequence of that choice. When people choose to have sex, they should know the risks and consequences of such action. Abortion is only a way to escape from responsibility.

^I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at.

none said:

Warbler wrote: He doesn't like to see pictures like that.

Most people don't like to see pictures of dead fetuses.  But they are a part of the debate.

this isn't about the debate, this is about a tragedy Frink and his family had to go through and how pictures like that remind him of it.    You've been told about it,  now stop acting like a jerk.  

TV's Frink said:

 Shouldn't abortion at the earliest point possible (six weeks?) be an option?

not if the fetus is a human life before 6 weeks old, with the same right to life as you or I.   Killing a human life is not an option.  

Nanner, it is a simple undeniable fact that every time you have sex, you risk creating a pregnancy.  

Nanner Split said:

Alexrd said:

TV's Frink said:

Let's say my wife and I have three children, two of which are still with us. We absolutely under no circumstances want another child. Does that mean we should have to give up sex completely?

Unless you don't want to accept the possible consequences, yes.

"Accept the possible consequences"? I swear to god, some of you people make sex sound like a fucking drug addiction or something.

Alexrd said:

If we were to get pregnant accidentally despite taking all reasonable precautions, should we be forced to have a child we did not want to have?

Precautions that you know are fallible. Why risk it, then? I understand liking to have sex, but in my opinion, if people are willing to have sex, then they should willingly accept the possible consequences too.

TV's Frink said:

 

Nanner Split said:

Alexrd said:

TV's Frink said:

Let's say my wife and I have three children, two of which are still with us. We absolutely under no circumstances want another child. Does that mean we should have to give up sex completely?

Unless you don't want to accept the possible consequences, yes.

"Accept the possible consequences"? I swear to god, some of you people make sex sound like a fucking drug addiction or something.

THIS

 

Warbler said:

Nanner, it is a simple undeniable fact that every time you have sex, you risk creating a pregnancy.  

THIS.

Sex is a wonderful thing, but the fact of the matter is that sex's primary purpose is to perpetuate the species.  Whether you believe in God or not, it's quite apparent that the pleasures and emotions associated with sex are a big bonus, or even an incentive, but they are not the end goal.

If you are agnostic like me, and you have all the children you want like me, there is no reason that the pleasures and emotions associated with sex can't be EXACTLY the end goal.

THAT.

Just want to drop in with a new sound track for the thread.  This is an old radio show I did in college, when Valentine's day came around, i'd play 3 hours of 'love' songs with accompaniment by the lovely queercore punk avant jazz band 'God Is My Co-Pilot's fantastic free-jazz freak out 'Sex Is For Making Babies'.  (Mp3 is a 3 hour show condensced into 7 minutes)

http://noneinc.com/sound/SifMB/ File Name: SifMB ValDay-Moments.mp3

fuck who you want the straight people will make more.

Going away, carry on.  (but let me know when you all get to the topic of aborting clones, thanx)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Is_My_Co-Pilot_%28band%29