Warbler said:
CP3S said:
but there are plenty of pro-choice people, myself included, who do admit that a fetus is, scientifically and by definition, a human life form.
if that is what you believe, why do you think people have the right to kill it.
You know the answer, we've had this discussion before.
CP3S said:
CP3S said:
darth_ender said:
How can we protect the lives of endangered animals and plants, yet treat unborn human life as trivial because we are not endangered? I'll never understand it. But you're welcome to try to make me. I'm ready to be outnumbered, but I assure you I am will not cop out on this topic.
Because we are selfish, and they take a lot of work and get in our way, and each one of them is pretty close to a 20 year investment.
It doesn't have to be a 20 year investment. I am sure you've heard of adoption. It really only needs to be a 9 month investment.
Have you looked into the adoption system? Foster homes and orphanages? Not as ideal of a situation as you'd like to think. End up with some pretty screwed up people from these kinds of places too.
but can you really be certain foster homes and orphanages are worst than death? Also not all babies that are up for adoption end up in foster homes and/or orphanages. Some people find the adoptive parents before the baby is born. Then the baby goes directly from the natural mother to the adoptive parents. I don't think that is so bad.
No, I can't be sure of that. I am not saying kill any kid we thing is going to have a hard life. I am saying that if a woman gets pregnant and wants to destroy her child before it is sentient, why should we stop her? So we can have one more abused or neglected child in the world?
CP3S said:
And the repercussions of child bearing don't disappear after the ninth month... Not even necessarily nine months after that.
I could be wrong, but I think mothers usually recover quickly from birth if they take care of themselves.
That depends. Some of the signs of pregnancy linger for quite some time.
CP3S said:
again, you are deciding for the child, that the child is better off dead than alive. You are playing God.
I'm not playing God. No one is playing God. We are talking about an unborn person who requires living inside your body in order to stay alive. There are a lot of things a pregnant woman can do to her body to screw up and potentially kill the baby inside her. How is that playing God?
I am not sure what else you call it went you decide that someone is better off death than alive and therefore its ok to kill that person.
I was saying that I am not playing God. I am not choosing who lives and who dies. We are talking about the mother, with this small potential person growing inside her having the choice of whether or not that small tiny potential person gets to continue growing inside her.
CP3S said:
Until we do, I think it preferable that the fetus remain inside the mother until born.And if the mother doesn't want it there? Tough?
and if the child doesn't want to die? though?
Is this child sentient? Because for me, that is really where the hinge of this debate lies.
I am sure it can, but I still don't how a fetus taking nutrients can be compared to a mugging. The fetus isn't even making a conscious choice.
Let's assume I am starving to death. Without food I am going to die. So I help myself into your home and raid your fridge. Much better. But I don't leave. I tell you I am going to stay at your place for 9 months, and that you need to do regular grocery shopping to keep me well fed. The government decides to back me up and support me in this, on account of the fact that I will die without food and have stated that I am going to let myself starve to death if I am removed from Warb's home.
Still not a perfect analogy...
I am not sure what else you call killing a human being.tell me, does the KKK have a right to say that killing black people isn't murder? nope. that's also cause we say so.
Going by dictionary definitions here, mate. According to Oxford and Webster, murder is an illegal killing. If I were a KKK klansmen and made the statement that it isn't illegal to kill an African America (shit! why do we always find ourselves back on the subject of race!), it doesn't change the laws and make it any less illegal. It would still be murder. Since abortion is legal, killing a fetus during the period that it is legal to do so, is not murder.
Not because anyone said so, but because words have meaning and so do laws.
CP3S said:
You sure about that?
so now you want infer that I am sexist just because I a pro-abortion?
I am not having this discussion. This is ridiculous. I never said anything to infer or suggest that you are sexist.
to answer your question: yes I am 200% certain I have no desire to control women. All I want to do preserve life once it already exists. That you would infer I am a sexist and that I want to control women, angers me.
I didn't infer that. But making abortion illegal would be controlling women, it would be telling women that if they get pregnant, they'll just have to deal.
As for defending abortion even if it is human life: If the fetus is human with the same rights as you and I? how is killing it any different than killing it once its outside the womb? If a mother gave birth to a baby, and then decided that since she really didn't want it. She thought adoption is so terrible and the baby will be better off dead than alive, so she kills it. We call that murder, right? Why should it be different for a human still inside the womb?
We would call that murder. Again, the debate should be about sentience and viability. At that point the child is sentient beyond a doubt, and is viable and can survive without the mother. Killing it at this point would be senseless.
That is a good argument against late term abortion as well.
Warbler said:
CP3S said:
twister111 said:
However if a woman doesn't want a kid for various reasons why force her to go through all that? Yes a life will be lost, but shouldn't she have the right to self defence?
a fetus taking nutrients isn't what I'd call an attack needing to be defended from.
This is typically the problem with the abortion debate. It is usually carried out by guys who are quick to brush it off and make comments like the above.
I am sure many women who are pro-life and have had babies, also make the same argument.
And I am sure many women who are pro-choice and have had babies make the same argument as me. The only point I was making there was that they are certainly more qualified to do so than you or me.