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It's also worth noting how much better everything looks when in motion compared to when looking at a still. :)
Thanks, yeah, that's exactly it. I mean I can see that there's a bit of green in his skintone but so there is in that Senator screening picture and the walls are quite green there and you need to find a ballance where everything looks at least pretty much the way it should.
And I'm really happy with how this particular scene turned out, except for the skintones being too orange in the shots before Tarkin and Vader come in, which I've already fixed now.
It's also worth noting how much better everything looks when in motion compared to when looking at a still. :)
Harmy said:
Thanks, yeah, that's exactly it. I mean I can see that there's a bit of green in his skintone but so there is in that Senator screening picture and the walls are quite green there and you need to find a ballance where everything looks at least pretty much the way it should.
And I'm really happy with how this particular scene turned out, except for the skintones being too orange in the shots before Tarkin and Vader come in, which I've already fixed now.
Harmy, yeah I'm only now starting to appreciate now how this is such a delicate balancing act for you, recreating the theatrical colours. I'd never seen that picture of the screening you posted just now that has a green tint in this scene with Tarkin. You've clearly seen more theatrical sources than I have so you know that much more about what the colours should be like than I do. I don't envy you having to balance the few theatrical sources there are out there and decide what colour grading to go with, that's for sure. What i'm doing with my project is so much easier by comparison.
As You_Too says, you're doing a fantastic job here balancing the sources, recreating how it looked in the theatre and everybody here, myself included, really appreciate it. I'll try to keep my nitpicking to a minimum from now on. :)
You_Too said:
Actually, the color that needs to be just slightly reduced to make Tarkin closer to natural would be green.
Look here, I used curves in photoshop and put a point in the green curve at 127/135 and here's what came out:
Yeah, now the skintones are more natural... I liked this curves correction.
Harmy,
Is it too late to get a PM to your preview? Also, do you think there's still a chance for a Christmas release? I know you lost quite a bit of time waiting for the USB drive to arrive. I certainly don't mean to seem greedy; I am simply amazed by the work you have done so far. After purchasing and watching the blu-rays of the Original Trilogy, I decided that I'd never watch the ANH blu-ray again.
On a related note, my wife saw Star Wars for the first time last weekend...the version she watched was your Despecialized Edition 1.0. She simply loved it!
just got done watching this and it is really good. I was loving every minute. will you be releasing another 40 minutes?
some of the things that looked off to me were,
I thought that the rebel soldiers shirts in the opening battle seemed to change from a sort of bluish gray to just blue. it didn't stick out too much though.
I also noticed alot of dancing grays in very dark scenes. Is this because you brightened it alot? was this meant to bring out the crushed blacks? i think it may bring out greys that weren't there before though.
I also agree that at times the warmer pallete makes it harder to pick out detail. mainly on peoples faces on tatooine. uncle owens face when he is talking to c3po is really bright and hard to make out.
I also noticed a bit more smearing in this version when compared to v1. again most noticable on the faces
but these are very minor and alot of them have to do with the sources you are working with.
Where's my damn medal?
Yeah, the xmas release is going to be impossible now, sorry. I clearly underestimated the amount of work that was still to be done. I don't even want to give another estimate, since it would really be just a wild guess at this point.
On a more positive note, I will hopefully soon post the next workprint within the next few days. It will actually be the first hour or so, from the beginning, because I made a lot of changes based on some of the observations made by you guys, so it's possible I could have made some new mistakes.
Harmy said:
Yeah, the xmas release is going to be impossible now, sorry. I clearly underestimated the amount of work that was still to be done. I don't even want to give another estimate, since it would really be just a wild guess at this point.
On a more positive note, I will hopefully soon post the next workprint within the next few days. It will actually be the first hour or so, from the beginning, because I made a lot of changes based on some of the observations made by you guys, so it's possible I could have made some new mistakes.
Count me in Harmy for the next workprint :)
I love everybody. Lets all smoke some reefer and chill. Hug and kisses for everybody.
Harmy said:
Yeah, the xmas release is going to be impossible now, sorry. I clearly underestimated the amount of work that was still to be done. I don't even want to give another estimate, since it would really be just a wild guess at this point.
It's better to not give an estimate, but take your time and keep polishing it until you're 100% satisfied, and I think most people here agree on that.
Harmy said:
On a more positive note, I will hopefully soon post the next workprint within the next few days. It will actually be the first hour or so, from the beginning, because I made a lot of changes based on some of the observations made by you guys, so it's possible I could have made some new mistakes.
Looking forward to the next WP! :)
I agree on taking your time.
would it be ok to ask for an ETA on the next workprint though? tee hee :-)
Where's my damn medal?
I think You_Too's version of Tarkin looks far better. The whole warm color scheme is becoming more clear with things like this brought up.
I think the whole shot looks better with the new curves.
Just to remind people; although the shots from the Senator are good guidelines for what we need to see it is extremely flawed. Somebody took those shots with their camera! There could be a huge difference between what the camera picked up and what was actually seen.
I would really like to see the entire color palette become less yellow.
Midnight_Trooper said:
I think You_Too's version of Tarkin looks far better. The whole warm color scheme is becoming more clear with things like this brought up.
Um, You_Too's curves adjusted pic is much warmer than my original one...
Yeah I guess that's true. What I mean to say is I agree about the yellow skin that has been brought up. And the colors of everything seem to be "flat" and not have enough contrast to one another.
I know the DVD/Blu ray colors are avoided like the plague but I have always thought we need to move closer to them.
The on-set photography (though still flawed) Shows that there may be a hint of blue in the Tantive shots. And that the Death Star interior reads more grey than green. I think you are definitely close with the current color scheme but have taken it a bit too far in the opposite direction from the LFL releases.
Man, I was gonna write a lengthy response, but I'm just seriously tired of this colour argument. It never ends, whenever someone stops going on about the colours, someone else starts.
I feel you. But that's the problem inherent with creating a new color scheme.
I think quite a few people have mentioned the yellow skin tones and sepia-like tendencies at points. I feel like that could be enough for a shot at some different settings.
You_Too went back and forth with many different setting before people agreed it was looking correct. I think to get it closer to perfect some adjustments might be made.
That is in no way meaning I dont appreciate your work or am trying to give you a hard time. I just feel strongly about the colors and especially think using the Senator images for the overall tone is not a good choice. For years I have looked at pictures of original Star Wars props taken by people at exhibits and the colors differ hugely from one camera to another.
frank678 said:
The adjusted still looks less lifelike and flatter to my eyes, it seems Harmy might be nearer to correct imo
Agreed. Sorry but Harmy's looks better to me here. The Death Star roundtable scene was impressive to me in the WP colorwise and I personally hope it stays the same.
Midnight_Trooper said: For years I have looked at pictures of original Star Wars props taken by people at exhibits and the colors differ hugely from one camera to another.
Yikes. Cameras don't interpret light the way our eyes do, so unless every one of those photos had a Macbeth color chart in it, whose RGB values you know, and you were viewing them on a professionally-calibrated, color-critical display, you can throw them out. Given the universe of monitor inconsistency among users, very few of whom have professionally-calibrated color-critical monitors, anyone doing professional color grading has to take most input with a grain of salt. The total lack of standard in the world is the thorn in every colorist's side, but it's the way it is. If Harmy - or anyone - manages to find colors which are "pleasing" to 80% of people, that is a freakin' miracle. But even "pleasing" has little to do with "accurate." At the level of subtlety being attempted here, there simply isn't a monitoring chain accurate enough to count on, and he can easily end up chasing his tail. Chances are that many people are actually making suggestions which would degrade the actual data in favor of biasing it to register a certain way on their inaccurate monitor.
So take it easy :)
_Mike
View the Restoration and join the discussion at StarWarsLegacy.com!
I agree with AluminumFalcon. While the Harmy pic is a bit greenish-tinged, the color of the Death Star is more in line as far as continuity with what it looks like in other shots.
edit: I also agree with mverta. Especially considering that each of us is looking at it on a potentially flawed monitor (however miniscule in each direction).
Fair enough Mike. I still think some tweaks could be made but I understand just how subjective that is.
And yes that was exactly my point about camera images. Being foremost a Boba Fett expert, I have seen many people's pictures of the exact same original costume. They all look very different. You simply cannot use them for color reference. In the absence of any solid, calibrated reference you have to cross reference many different sources and try to find a pleasing middle ground; Just as Harmy has done here.
Because of my experience with the variance of color from camera shots, I am the most distrustful of the Senator shots. I think they should be considered in finding that pleasing middle ground but not be featured as largely in the current color curves.
Just my opinion. I wont continue to pester Harmy. Carry on gentlemen.
Thanks, Mike :-) Could you maybe offer some insight as to what the colours should be?
BTW, I think your signature needs a tweak, since OT stands for original trilogy.
OK, guys, here's a very preliminary render of the beginning of the Mos Eisley sequence:
Harmy, by now you know how anal I am about this stuff, so about color let me say that I will absolutely be offering "final/this-is-really-got-to-be-what-it's-supposed-to-be" images, but I'm just not ready to call anything final yet. It won't be forever. In fact, probably within the next couple of months I'll have some things together which I'd feel comfortable taking to the bank.
It's a cluster. Let's say, theoretically, you had multiple near-pristine Tech prints, and you noticed almost zero, or negligible, color variations between them. You might be prepared to sum the prints, and take the average value for a given pixel and say "that's it," except the nature of film is such that one frame later, it's different. So which one is it supposed to be? Well, let's say you then took the sampling of every occurrence of a particular color (say, a costume) across the entirety of the film, and took the average. Well, that negates the deliberate color-grading which was done scene-to-scene, which intended for the color to appear different each time. So then perhaps you just take it scene-by-scene, and pick an average value within that scene, and declare a particular color only valid for a certain range.
That's closer to definitive. But that has a lot of room for error in it as well, such as drifts along the production chain, from negative to IP to IN to Print. That process is not 100% stable. And then, if they're prints, then they're old, and there's color fading to consider. And then, what about at the scanning stage. Are you sure you're capturing using a light temperature appropriate for the stock? I only know of one scanner even capable of dialing in the color temperature of its light source on a per stock basis! And then, are you capturing to a colorspace which can faithfully capture the range on the stock?
And then, what about your working/monitor environment?
To really do this right you'd need a slew of things:
1) Reference photos of original costumes, sets, and models taken in 1976 (common; can be found in the private collections of original vfx artists and LFL Archives), and ideally with color charts in them (extremely rare, but exist somewhat). If you have charts, you have, at least somewhere, a record of what each color REALLY was; I mean, in life, irrespective of how they ultimately lit and graded the images.
2) Data on the various stocks used when shooting Star Wars to determine their inherent biases and/or limitations in capturing color (this is obtainable). From this you at least know something about what was even possible to capture, compared to the actual color in life.
3) Data on the various stocks used along the transfer process on the way to print to determine their inherent response characteristics (this is obtainable), and response characteristics of your prints (obtainable).
4) Prints which haven't faded, or have barely faded. A pristine, or near-pristine Tech is about the best you could ever hope for on this front.
5) A scanner which tunes its light source to match the biases of the stock. Currently the only one I know of is DFT-Film's Scanity. Negative stock, for example, is orange tinted, so it uses a slightly green light source when capturing, the exact temperature of which is dialed in based on the stock.
6) A calibrated working environment, and flexible colorspace.
So, in the end, it's do-able. It's just an odyssey of work, research, and asset acquisition. Oh yeah, and a shit-ton of money. :)
When you consider all this, the fact that any of our fan-based corrections look as good as they do to as many people as they do, is pretty impressive, and something to be grateful for.
_Mike
View the Restoration and join the discussion at StarWarsLegacy.com!
Just finished watching the new WP, and I'm impressed! So much more detail, and everything appears to be a more natural color: IE - less red.
The one concern I have is with the moving dewback before the Cantina scene; is that supposed to be moving, or a matte painting? I couldn't tell from the V1 which it was, but I thought it was non-moving in the OT.
Also, around 23 seconds, the guy in the foreground has a very red hand. I didn't notice it at full speed, but when I slowed it down, it became obvious. Just an FYI, not a criticism.
mverta said:
So, in the end, it's do-able. It's just an odyssey of work, research, and asset acquisition. Oh yeah, and a shit-ton of money. :)
While I am enthusiastic and impressed about the Legacy project (as much as is possible given its doubtful I could ever get to see it), I still think the human eye on its own, by calibrating itself with just what it sees in the real world, can arrive at an image which looks the most convincingly lifelike to it, relative to a given condition, and then transfer that to work within the range of a non-professional monitor.
I think too much talk of subjectivity and lack of Lucasfilm materials/technology could end bogging a project down - better to push on intuitively and see if what you produce is better than whats out there, which with this project seems to be the case.
Harmy said:
OK, guys, here's a very preliminary render of the beginning of the Mos Eisley sequence:
Harmy around 0:54 when the scene jumps back for a wide shot on the troopers second "move along" the shadows/midtones look green i.e. what should be black/grey have a green shade.....troopers backpacks, guy with leather coat
J