ben_danger said:
i was thinking that perhaps the ewoks cause the diversion that the rebels need to gain the upperhand. we see them show up in force, and then the imperials chase them off, leaving the shield generator unprotected. no bear antics. then the deleted footage of the rebels taking the bunker could be inserted perhaps?
Sounds good. but I still think some sort of forest battle needs to go on between rebels and imperials.
I made these suggestions in the past, and I still believe they are worthwhile ideas:
darth_ender said:
Just a thought to make the ending more doable, as much has been said critiquing the realism of the Ewoks and a dozen rebels defeating a legion of the Emperor's best troops. I've not thought it through enough to consider available footage, just a concept.
The Rebels allow themselves to be captured upon reaching the bunker. The Ewoks ambush the Imperials. While the soldiers are distracted, Han successfully hotwires the bunker door and he and a few Rebels enter. Use the deleted scene coming in the Blu-ray to show a battle within the bunker. Han manages to sabotage the generator, and from there...I don't know how he escapes. It just occurred to me. Someone else can take it from here if they want, and perhaps explore if it's even feasible with available footage.
As Queen Amidala said: [using as little emotion as possible] "The battle is a diversion."
Any thoughts?
darth_ender said:
The esteemed darth_ender said:
*I've mentioned this in the ROTJ wishlist thread, but perhaps the Ewok attack could take place, the Rebels manage to push ahead into the bunker (it wouldn't be too hard to make Han look like he successfully hotwires the door), while the Ewoks distract Imperial troops. Footage from Battle for Endor could show more Ewok deaths. The Rebel commando team gets into the bunker, has their shootout, places their charges while the battle continues to rage outside. The generator control room is destroyed, and perhaps even small explosions shown on the dish signify it no longer works, though it wouldn't be as dramatic. Then the space battle continues with, "The shield is down!" My only question is how could you show the commandos escaping? Hmmm...maybe Han could still charge out of the bunker yelling, "Move!" with added laser fire going on behind him. After the generator blows (keep the whole big explosion in this scenario), one might see several storm troopers get caught in the blast, then show several scenes that were before removed of stormtroopers fleeing and being further ambushed by the Ewoks, and Chewie hijacks the AT-ST and begins his rampage. This might be hard to pull off as far as the emotional flow, but some good music changes might alter the lightheated fun feeling of beating the stormtroopers over the head with little rocks. It's far more believable to see Imperial troops being defeated when they are disorganized and panicked due to the loss of their shield generator.
Pardon the realtime brainstorming/typing. It seems like a worthy idea, and it incorporates and in fact heavily relies on the deleted bunker scene, so it still fits okay in this thread.
To expand upon the idea, and also repeating something I had mentioned before in this thread, showing the various Rebel pilots and Falcon gunners would expand the battle nicely (probably needing a few more ship shots, but I understand Adywan has plans for this, though that might take some waiting). With the expanded space battle, further attention could be taken off the Ewoks and leave more to the imagination about the struggle going on at the Battle of Shield Bunker Hill. The audience would surmise more death and carnage has taken place and more good guys fell by the way side. Besides, who wouldn't want to see a grander space battle? It seems many are disappointed that the final version simply wasn't big enough.
*I actually originally included the following just before the above asterisk but was originally part of the same subquote.
darth_ender said:
As for the bunker scene, I think that you could easily intersperse much of the action that take place in the bunker with other shots, giving the impression of a larger building and a more time-consuming break-in. One might be able to put several of those shots after Han bluffs his way into the bunker a second time, and thus leave the Rebels with an ongoing challenge to get their charges placed and the generator destroyed.
OR...
So I guess my thought is this: add more cockpit and gunner shots with additional species, races, and genders, as this shows the Rebellion isn't picky and bigoted like the Empire, and adds nice variety as well. Use a larger variety of fighters (maybe capital ships as well, I was looking forward to Victory star destroyers and was disappointed that they were not used in the PT). Add bunker footage, use the Ewoks as a diversion and include Battle of Endor footage, film additional Rebel commando involvement, and show the Jerjerrod dilemma, and you may have a great combination for a more realistic and dramatic ending. I will have to take the time later to thoroughly streamline all these thoughts and perhaps put it in my signature so someone who recognizes my brilliance can make use of it some day ;)
What do you think?
Ady has already stated that the deleted scenes are unusable for the most part...including the bunker storming sequence. They just weren't included at high enough quality on the Blu-Ray set
Makes sense, but even if he doesn't want to do that, perhaps someone else will.
Indeed - trying to assemble the deleted material into a lower image quality edit is still a worthy idea.
Agreed. I was simply responding to the suggestion that Ady use these deleted scenes in his edit...as I know he has made specific comments about their quality before. It would definitely be great to see some of the better ones worked into a version of the film.
To give the Ewoks their due.
George seems to have always intended a stone-age culture to take on the space-age Empire in a final act in a film (always difficult to tell with George).
If the Ewoks are transformed into tougher alien people, having them take the Imperial legion by surprise is an important rogue element that the Emperor hasn't anticipated.
I'd still augment that with footage of Rebels with guns taking on a larger Imperial presence, the ship would be large enough to carry a significant task force and equipment.
In the current versions the Rebels (outside the big six) seem to vanish after leaving the ship.
The ewok enigma might be solved a little better too if they didn't take over so much in the finale. We never move on after them. (we need a space ending!)
^^ It's true, the rebel commandos all disappear. What happened?! This was my biggest gripe with Disney's Mulan...they train a bunch of warriors to battle against the Huns, and by the time they are actually facing them, they realize they are outnumbered! What a shock, considering 99.4% desertion! It may sound petty, but that single fact ruined the movie for me because it so completely shattered the drama and suspense--I couldn't stop thinking about how idiotic the main characters must be.
Wow, really digressed there! Sorry, but back to the point, since no one really cares much what the commandos look like, some doubles who bear even a passing resemblance could be filmed to add to the commando action. Heck, they must be good to be brought on a mission like this, capable of holding their own against bad odds for a time.
darth_ender said:
^^ It's true, the rebel commandos all disappear. What happened?! This was my biggest gripe with Disney's Mulan...they train a bunch of warriors to battle against the Huns, and by the time they are actually facing them, they realize they are outnumbered! What a shock, considering 99.4% desertion! It may sound petty, but that single fact ruined the movie for me because it so completely shattered the drama and suspense--I couldn't stop thinking about how idiotic the main characters must be.
Wow, really digressed there! Sorry, but back to the point, since no one really cares much what the commandos look like, some doubles who bear even a passing resemblance could be filmed to add to the commando action. Heck, they must be good to be brought on a mission like this, capable of holding their own against bad odds for a time.
The Vader pic makes me LOL so much. I just picture the Emperor walking up to his throne, and Vader sitting there with all the Rebels. "Guess who switched sides?"
Those aren't even the same commandos in the two pics! Where's blackguy and beardface?
I'm actually not positive the top picture is legit. It is a funny pic though. I remember somewhere on this forum there was a picture of Mark Hammill with the commandos, but I couldn't find it.
I am trying to imagine how my scenario would work out on the Endor surface. Han taps the guy on the shoulder. The commandos break in through the door, and keep the cut to the Death Star and Luke facing the Emperor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1qYEYGkTeU&t=6m58s
After the Emperor says, "Oh, I'm afraid the deflective shield will be quite operational when your friends arrive," we then see our heroes being marched out of the bunker from 3PO's and R2's perspective. The Ewoks ambush them. Take out the Ewok horn blowing. Show Ewok carnage and only use the more depressing shots of the battle.
Here are some potential shots from the Battle for Endor. There's probably less than I was hoping for, but still this links should give a couple of seconds of useful footage that could slightly expand the Ewok struggle and perhaps make it appear a bit more violent and overwhelming at times for them. Maybe more could be found, as I just quickly was searching on YouTube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAEV_sLEglI&t=3m49s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ5_q7p6WQs&t=3m8s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ5_q7p6WQs&t=4m59s
Also show some of our own filmed commando action. Make the battle look more bleak for the whole company. Take out the destruction of the AT-STs at this point.
3PO and R2 head to the bunker, R2 fails to open the door before getting shot. Han tries to hotwire. When he says, "I think I got it. I got it!" show the door opening rather than shutting (shouldn't be too hard for someone with some skills anywhere beyond mine). The battle continues to rage outside. Somehow show Chewie and a few commandos near the bunker with Han and Leia to imply that they will enter as well, and include a high quality, well restored version of the following clip (probably shorten the time that Han stands in the hall like an idiot while the troopers realize what's going on:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT-ZsR2P8dU&t=0m16s
At about the point where Han says, "Charges, c'mon. C'mon!" take out Leia's, "Hurry, the fleet will be here any moment," and the rest of that video. Instead we see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BVEvvCRGy4&t=7m57s
...Han setting up the charges. The battle continues again showing a desperate Ewok battle, perhaps with a few remaining commandos outside. Just thinking here...perhaps show some Imperials charging in...maybe even show Han chucking the box at Ben Burt, but as the stormtroopers charge in, show some laser blasts and smoke and cut to the space battle, so we don't really know what happened from there in the bunker. When we return to the surface of Endor, we see Han yelling, "Move! Move!"...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFp9wXfnvdE&t=0m56s
...with added laser blasts all around to make it still appear like a fire zone, perhaps with some added shots even coming out of the bunker like he is being chased. The bunker explodes, "The shield is down," yadda yadda. We then see the happier shots of the Ewoks surprising and beating up stormtroopers, beginning with the horn blowing earlier removed, and particularly shots that make the bad guys look like they're fleeing. Show Ewok AT-ST traps (maybe remove the double log smasher), and show Chewie commandeering one and taking out troopers and the AT-ST. The routing of the legion of the Emperor's best troops is far easier to believe when the baddies are in panic after the destruction of their generator. End our perspective of the land battle with the black Ewok shouting, "Yah haha!" The audience then assumes that the good guys have the Imperials on the run.
Even though we never see Leia get shot, we'd be okay seeing Han bandage her later, assuming it was just an injury in the heat of battle.
I want to give a few thoughts on the space battle as well, but I will put those into words later.
Is there anything that simply would not work in this scenario? Anything that should be left in or taken out? Other suggestions? Any feedback?
I am making a crappy video mock-up of what I'm trying to describe above in all the free time I don't have. The space battle and Luke/Vader may not make sense narratively because I'm not focusing on them and am mostly just trying to keep cuts (that's not to say I'm not trying to make it make sense, but it's a disclaimer in case I overlook something). My focus is the surface of Endor. I'll post it in the next couple of days, but for now I have to stop working on it and get to studying.
^this would be good. i never commented before, but i like the ideas posted. i really think ewoks could work, where ROTJ goes wrong, is the focus almost becomes ENTIRELY on them in places.
What goes wrong is that Lucas plays to their appearance and not against it.
So what should be a tense battle becomes a series of slapstick routines where cute bears hit clowns in stormtrooper outfits with sticks and rocks.
Instead we should see a legion of stormtroopers (on top of those already in the garrison protecting the dish) taken by surprise by pre-planned piece of guerilla warfare by a stone-age civilisation who had already engaged the troops in the garrison on a smaller scale before the Rebels even got there.
How else would all those traps get there if they had so much short notice?
The Ewoks must have intended on attacking the forrest around the bunker long before the Rebels landed.
Their village should be decorated with the corpses of their enemy.
That way their appearance (teddy bears) becomes a dramatic surprise instead of a joke which undermines the menace the Imperial forces have represented for the last two and half films.
With the Rebels added to that, then it becomes a plausible sequence.
Bingowings said:
What goes wrong is that Lucas plays to their appearance and not against it.
So what should be a tense battle becomes a series of slapstick routines where cute bears hit clowns in stormtrooper outfits with sticks and rocks.
Instead we should see a legion of stormtroopers (on top of those already in the garrison protecting the dish) taken by surprise by pre-planned piece of guerilla warfare by a stone-age civilisation who had already engaged the troops in the garrison on a smaller scale before the Rebels even got there.
How else would all those traps get there if they had so much short notice?
The Ewoks must have intended on attacking the forrest around the bunker long before the Rebels landed.
Their village should be decorated with the corpses of their enemy.
That way their appearance (teddy bears) becomes a dramatic surprise instead of a joke which undermines the menace the Imperial forces have represented for the last two and half films.
With the Rebels added to that, then it becomes a plausible sequence.
Ehh. I think you kind of have to play the Ewoks as a comedic though. It is pretty funny. But you also need to balance that humor to make the Emperor's "Legion of his best troops" not seem like incompetent idiots.
It's situational comedy. It's funny because of what they are, there's not really any reason to play it up.
Could some of these more savage ideas be sneaked in when, han, luke and chewie are captured by the ewoks earlier on? enstead of being cooked alive on a pole (ie the cartoon cannibal thing - enstead of skinned and gutted like a regular animal would) for a banquet. 3P0 translates that they are to be "executed like the other invaders" to which han could glance around to see the corpses of various imperials?
ben_danger said:
Could some of these more savage ideas be sneaked in when, han, luke and chewie are captured by the ewoks earlier on? enstead of being cooked alive on a pole (ie the cartoon cannibal thing - enstead of skinned and gutted like a regular animal would) for a banquet. 3P0 translates that they are to be "executed like the other invaders" to which han could glance around to see the corpses of various imperials?
Sounds good to me.
I don't think you need to play them up for comedy anymore than you would a tribe of physically short stone-aged humans armed with spears and physical traps etc.
Some Congolese may be shorter than your average Western soldier but it would be a mistake to dismiss them as joke if you threatened them.
An initial expectation of them to be cute and comedic should be subverted not endorsed.
Bingowings said:
What goes wrong is that Lucas plays to their appearance and not against it.
So what should be a tense battle becomes a series of slapstick routines where cute bears hit clowns in stormtrooper outfits with sticks and rocks.
Instead we should see a legion of stormtroopers (on top of those already in the garrison protecting the dish) taken by surprise by pre-planned piece of guerilla warfare by a stone-age civilisation who had already engaged the troops in the garrison on a smaller scale before the Rebels even got there.
How else would all those traps get there if they had so much short notice?
The Ewoks must have intended on attacking the forrest around the bunker long before the Rebels landed.
Their village should be decorated with the corpses of their enemy.
That way their appearance (teddy bears) becomes a dramatic surprise instead of a joke which undermines the menace the Imperial forces have represented for the last two and half films.
With the Rebels added to that, then it becomes a plausible sequence.
^THIS....all of it....twice.
Whoa...I haven't seen the ewok movies in a million years.
From what I can tell those clips of brief battle footage probably could work if used properly in the battle of Endor.
Question - has a ROTJ edit ever been made by anyone whose tried using parts of that footage?
This old fossil sums up how I believe the Ewoks should be represented :
This is a very rough idea of what the Battle of Endor could be like. I simply used YouTube videos, so much of the footage is flipped and very low quality. Further changes that could have been made include more extensive commando action (someone would have to film this themselves), more (or no) Ewoks: Battle for Endor shots (I included a couple brief clips, but I'm not sure they're necessary or work well), Han calls, "C'mon Chewie," when the bunker doors open instead of rotoscoping him in there (in order to explain his involvement in subsequent shots), more intervening space battle clips to improve the narrative flow, Ewoks tooting their horns after the generator blows, more successful Ewok battle stuff after that to indicate the Imperial forces are in disarray and the tide has turned, the bunker shootout should probably begin a bit later when the firing has begun, and other changes as well. However I hope this changes the story enough to make the Endor surface battle more realistic and increases tension. I'm no editor, so this is simply a submission for a possible alternative.
Hard to compete with Adywan's awesome video :)