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Info Wanted: ESB/ROTJ Audio Mix questions... — Page 3

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dark_jedi said:

The ESB 80 Theatrical analogue I did, so it is already done, I would like to have the Digital PCM, then I will put that in sync, and I to would love to have the Digital PCM tracks ripped from the JSC, but who has them, and has the capabilities to rip bit-for-bit the audio?

And I totally agree with your bottom statement, but as hairy_hen, and ChainsawAsh, and others have pointed out, the 85 mix was not needed for ESB and ROTJ, that is why they were not included on my V3 DVD Set and my coming soon Blu-ray Set.

 

Does this mean that you are looking to use the Digital Sound mix from either the Special Widescreen Edition or JSC as a DIGITAL replacement for the ESB 80 Theatrical you already have?

Agree that there may not be much point in having them both on your Blu Ray release but instead use a far superior Digital mix in place of the currently available Analogue mix.

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russs15 said:

Does this mean that you are looking to use the Digital Sound mix from either the Special Widescreen Edition or JSC as a DIGITAL replacement for the ESB 80 Theatrical you already have?

Agree that there may not be much point in having them both on your Blu Ray release but instead use a far superior Digital mix in place of the currently available Analogue mix.

Exactly this, if I can get bit-for-bit rips of the captured analogue files I already have, I will swap them out, that is what I want to do, but I will only spend the time to do it if I get all of them to replace, not just 1 or 2.

So yes, that is my goal here.

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You will not bee able to get any form of digital "rip" of the ANH 1977 Theatrical mix, but as hairy_hen said:

There are no digital copies of the '77 stereo mix on laserdisc.  Belbucus' analogue capture was made with very high quality equipment, so it's probably the best it's ever going to sound short of an official transfer from the master tape.

That mix is as good as we are going to get. However you could replace the following mixes if you wished......

1985 ANH mix using the "rip" recently posted by Mallwalker.

1980 ESB Theatrical mix if the Special Widescreen Edition/JSC were to be "ripped".

1983 ROTJ Theatrical mix using the "rip" recently posted by Mallwalker.

 

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russs15 said:

You will not bee able to get any form of digital "rip" of the ANH 1977 Theatrical mix, but as hairy_hen said:

There are no digital copies of the '77 stereo mix on laserdisc.  Belbucus' analogue capture was made with very high quality equipment, so it's probably the best it's ever going to sound short of an official transfer from the master tape.

That mix is as good as we are going to get. However you could replace the following mixes if you wished......

1985 ANH mix using the "rip" recently posted by Mallwalker.

1980 ESB Theatrical mix if the Special Widescreen Edition/JSC were to be "ripped".

1983 ROTJ Theatrical mix using the "rip" recently posted by Mallwalker.

 

So far I have had no luck finding anyone that can rip this, but I will keep hunting.

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dark_jedi said:

russs15 said:

You will not bee able to get any form of digital "rip" of the ANH 1977 Theatrical mix, but as hairy_hen said:

There are no digital copies of the '77 stereo mix on laserdisc.  Belbucus' analogue capture was made with very high quality equipment, so it's probably the best it's ever going to sound short of an official transfer from the master tape.

That mix is as good as we are going to get. However you could replace the following mixes if you wished......

1985 ANH mix using the "rip" recently posted by Mallwalker.

1980 ESB Theatrical mix if the Special Widescreen Edition/JSC were to be "ripped".

1983 ROTJ Theatrical mix using the "rip" recently posted by Mallwalker.

 

So far I have had no luck finding anyone that can rip this, but I will keep hunting.

Well, I have the JSC, a LD player with optical out and a soundblaster (which I bought a few years ago because of the bitperfect option) with optical in. However, I don't know what program to use or how to check if a stream was ripped bitperfect.

Fez: I am so excited about Star Whores.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
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Unfortunately, the files for ANH 1130-85 and ROTJ 1478-80 posted recently by Mallwalker do not shed any light on the process or software used.

Each side was "ripped" three times and a type of MD5 check number given....

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russs15 said:

Unfortunately, the files for ANH 1130-85 and ROTJ 1478-80 posted recently by Mallwalker do not shed any light on the process or software used.

Each side was "ripped" three times and a type of MD5 check number given....

I am certain Mallwalker knows exactly what he is doing, and I am pretty sure he has an RF Demodulator to rip these files correctly, especially since he said these are bit perfect, and how well they sound, pretty much tells it.

So now all I need is ESB so I can redo the PCM files for my last release.

I don't know why he just doesn't comment himself, he has been on the Forum already and had to have seen this, so hopefully soon he will shed some light for you Russ on his exact method used.

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I have had a quick listen to the raw "ripped bitperfect" audio from ANH 1130-85 and ROTJ 1478-80 and they sound truly amazing compared to their equivalent audio from various captured transfers and they sound truly amazing.

Those two along with ESB (if "ripped bitperfect"), converted and synced to GOUT would make worthy replacements for the existing sound files currently being used.

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Hi guys! I'm glad you're enjoying those rips.
I haven't been ignoring anybody I promise, although I've purposely stayed out of the Preservations forum for the past week. Just need a break sometimes, so I've been working on that Dark-Sega IVTC script in isolation.
It's exciting to see so much activity in this thread. Let me try and collect my thoughts...

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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I don't have any RF demod like dark_jedi mentioned. That's only needed for ripping AC3 tracks, and we don't need no stinkin' SE LDs ;)

I still use the same soundcard since page1 of this thread: make M-Audio, model Audiophile2496.
Device driver software and the recording applet are ALSA.
After recording three takes, I use shntool to compare them and make sure they're all three identical (not TOOT).
shntool is one of those things that once you've discovered it, you'll wonder how you ever lived without.

Although you're not expected to remember, I did already mention my player in captainsolo's thread
It's a CLD-S201 bottom-feeder . . . that's got it where it counts.

fly-boy said:

I've made a lot of special modifications myself

I'd love to show pictures of my hack job, but
a) don't have a camera
b) afraid vbangle might laugh at my soldering skilz ;)

This is not my pic but it give you an idea what I did. Mine looks worse.


Now let me tell why my .NFO file contain no equipment list. I didn't forget to include it.
I omitted it on purpose because IT DOESN'T MATTER!
This is the essence of what bit-perfect means.
If you and I both rip the same disc, then we should expect exactly the same result even if we used different equipment.
Bit-perfect is hardware-independent.
Doesn't mean any hardware is capable of doing it, but any capable hardware should give the same result.

That's quite different from analog capture (audio or video) where equipment can make all the difference in the world.


Back on topic of ESB pressings, I own these:
(chronological)
1425-84 = analog only
SF148-1242 = Special Collection (JSC)
1425-85 = Pioneer Video, Inc. (PVI)
1425-84 = re-issue by Mitsubishi with diGital SOUND added (*)
1425-85 = re-issue by Technidisc

(*) It has digital sound, but might also have CX-encoding applied, which would be a mastering error. Analog tracks often use CX, but digital shouldn't. So we would need some CX decoder software, if such a thing exist.
Credit SilverWook for offering that hypothesis earlier in the thread.

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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That all sounds very easy, so I expect to see a dozen different "rips" available by the weekend......

Joking aside, that looks complicated and much respect for getting done what you have managed so far.

Belbucus spoiled us with the 1977 ANH Mono Restoration and the 1977 ANH Theatrical in High Quality from the analogue 1130-84 CAV LaserDisc. He also gave us the 93 mixes ex DC/Faces (are these "rips" or captures and how do they stack up against the GOUT audio??)

However, the Digital Sound mixes from the Special Widescreen Edition, 1992 Pan & Scan and the Japanese Special Collection have never really had the same treatment. Let's hope that the situation changes now after what you have started with your "ripped" 1130-85 ANH.

Back to ESB, do we now have conclusive proof that all pre-DC - analogue or Digital Sound - are the same mixes? If so, a rip of a Digital Sound LD must be better (I assume!!) than any analogue capture we can do so are you planning a "rip" of one of your amazing collection to add to your 1130-85TD ANH and 1478-80 ROTJ "rips". I may as well ask the other question - are you planning anything High Quality with the analogue 1425-84?? (I ask as I am still hoping to do my single mix of analogue v digital to finally prove that they are the same to myself.)

If not, does anyone else have the equipment, discs, time, knowledge, patience and inclination to have a bash at this. I have my fingers crossed hoping that they do.....

Sorry for asking more questions than I answered!!

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Darth Mallwalker, do you have plans to rip the audio of the JSC?

Fez: I am so excited about Star Whores.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
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russs15 said:

Belbucus spoiled us with the 1977 ANH Mono Restoration and the 1977 ANH Theatrical in High Quality from the analogue 1130-84 CAV LaserDisc. He also gave us the 93 mixes ex DC/Faces (are these "rips" or captures and how do they stack up against the GOUT audio??)

IMO there's really no comparison, the AC-3 tracks on Star Wars and Jedi sound pretty good for being lossy 192 kbps tracks but cannot compete with the PCM of the LD's, the Empire DVD track have less dynamic range for some reason making the PCM even more superior, hairy_hen and/or d_j have since his GOUT project also repaired a slight glitch in the PCM track of Empire (a high pitched sound appearing when the Falcon "attacking" the Stardestroyer) and a glitch in the '93 track itself (a jump cut in the music just before C-3PO says, "If only you'd attached my legs, I wouldn't be in this ridiculous position."  The music cue starts and then it seems to start again less than half a second later).

I would also count the weird lack of the whining snowspeeder sound effect being a sort of miss/glitch in the process of creating this remaster as the goal with this track wasn't to make things sounding different, they just went back to the source material/masters to avoid the limited range of the original optical track.

russs15 said:

Back to ESB, do we now have conclusive proof that all pre-DC - analogue or Digital Sound - are the same mixes? If so, a rip of a Digital Sound LD must be better (I assume!!) than any analogue capture we can do so are you planning a "rip" of one of your amazing collection to add to your 1130-85TD ANH and 1478-80 ROTJ "rips". I may as well ask the other question - are you planning anything High Quality with the analogue 1425-84?? (I ask as I am still hoping to do my single mix of analogue v digital to finally prove that they are the same to myself.)

I don't believe anyone have been able to prove it, it's just that no one have been able to hear any difference in content as of yet.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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russs15 said:

that looks complicated

Just so nobody will get the wrong impression, I should emphasize that it needn't be so complicated. If your player already has optical TosLink or coaxial S/PDIF outputs (mine didn't) then that custom circuit would not be necessary.

russs15 said:

I expect to see a dozen different "rips" available by the weekend.....
I know you're joking, but it raises a very good point...

schorman13 said:

I'm going to compare the rips to choose whichever is mastered better.
This is something I have not done.
I posted 1130-85TD first because I ripped it first, not because I think it's best. Another pressing might be mastered better. That's yet to be determined.
Same with 1478-80. It's the only ROTJ I've posted because it's the only one I've ripped so far. It's not meant as an endorsement.

hairy_hen has already gotten some other ANH samples from me. They include JSC, PVC & Mitsubishi SWEs. I hope he'll chime in after he's had a chance to compare them against the Technidisc. I'll make them available if anybody else want to compare. Also a PVI pressing which 7FN shared five years ago can be available.

I'll get to work on ESB. Probably one of the SWE first....

Finally, Belbucus did rip (not capture) the '93 tracks. See here
IIRC hairy_hen and/or dark_jedi did find a glitch or two among them; nevertheless, I don't have any plans to rip my DC box.

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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Mallwalker, so what exactly are you possibly planning on ripping? because like I have said in this thread already, rips are better than captures, and I would love to see an actual list of possibilities so I can see if I can replace some of the captured PCM tracks I have already done, and I agree, there really is no reason to rip anymore of the 93 mixes or any of the SW 77 mixes, these were all done the best that they can be already, however, I am curious of the others that I have that can be replaced.

I am done with my new video files for Star Wars and Return of The Jedi, but while waiting on h_h's new 5.1 mixes I figured I may sync up new Digital PCM tracks to these and replace my captured ones, so could you please just list which LD's you have that you are thinking about ripping and sharing? Thanks.

I to wish h_h would chime in and tell us which files are better, I would hate to sync an inferior version just to have to re do it yet again on a different one.

Thanks

*edit - Please understand, I am not pushing anyone to do anything, that is why I said possibly above, but this is starting to get confusing and I am hoping to figure all this out soon, but I guess if worst comes to worst, I could just leave all my audio files as is, it is still complete, and it is available, just not quite as good as Digital PCM, but something is better than nothing.

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*edit - Please understand, I am not pushing anyone to do anything, that is why I said possibly above, but this is starting to get confusing and I am hoping to figure all this out soon, but I guess if worst comes to worst, I could just leave all my audio files as is, it is still complete, and it is available, just not quite as good as Digital PCM, but something is better than nothing.

I was already planning on ripping all of these discs myself anyway.  I should be able to begin after this weekend.  

I'm going to compare the Special Widescreen and Special Collection mastering and choose the better of the two versions for each film.  I also plan to re-rip the DC discs and could compare with the Faces Set if necessary.    The only disc I need to track down is the CAV fullscreen disc.

BTW, I'll be using the E-MU 1616m for capturing bit perfect pcm.  I also have an rf demodulator and plan to rip bit perfect copies of the 5.1 mixes of the SE and the theatrical version of TPM.

If I had some gum, I’d chew a hole into the sun…

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Actually, I'd be interested in having new copies of the '97 mixes in AC3 5.1, as the files I have contain occasional brief dropouts.  Good to hear there are plans for doing that.

I have compared the samples of the '85 mix somewhat, but not yet in great detail.  The only thing that's very noticeable among them is the difference in mastering levels.  The Technidisc audio averages about 3 db lower than the 1993 mix most of the time, but it is the loudest of the lot; the other pressings are even lower than that.  I did notice that it runs a bit fast compared to the '93, and that it loses synch with it after only a short time—during an individual scene it would hardly be noticeable, but by the end of a laserdisc side it's more than an entire frame in advance.  I have not yet checked to see whether that is true of the other '85 copies.

In theory the higher level of the Technidisc gives it a lower noise floor, but to be honest I really couldn't make out any significant differences in sound quality between them.  The waveforms show minor dynamic variations, but any differences seem to be virtually inaudible, at least to me (and my admittedly less-than-perfect audio equipment).  If one of the others displayed less discrepancy in playback speed then it would probably be easier to synch to the GOUT, but any version is pretty much guaranteed not to match up without a lot of editing.

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Darth Mallwalker said:


Finally, Belbucus did rip (not capture) the '93 tracks. See here
IIRC hairy_hen and/or dark_jedi did find a glitch or two among them; nevertheless, I don't have any plans to rip my DC box.

 

Thanks for that link. I sort of remember that thread from years ago but never paid it much attention at the time - if any attention at all!! I so wish I had though as so many things make much more sense now......

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OK Guys,
I am confused on who is getting what, and what is getting who, I now have these Digital PCM files from LD's in my collection, along with all the PCM tracks I captured,

Star Wars 1130-85 Technidisc (Thanks to Mallwalker) 1985 Home Video Mix
http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/36787/1130-85/
Return of The Jedi 1478-80 Pioneer Video Inc. (Thanks to Mallwalker) Theatrical
http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/10637/1478-80/

*****

Star Wars 1130-85 Mitsubishi (Thanks to The Lizard King) 1985 Home Video Mix
http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/00862/1130-85/Star-Wars:-A-New-Hope-%28CBS%29-%281977
Empire Strikes Back 1425-85 Mitsubishi (Thanks to The Lizard King) Theatrical
http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/00873/1425-85/Star-Wars:-The-Empire-Strikes-Back-%281980
Return of The Jedi 1478-85 Mitsubishi (Thanks to The Lizard King) Theatrical
http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/00874/1478-85/Star-Wars:-Return-of-the-Jedi-%281983

Now what I need to know is this, is the Empire Strikes Back above the Theatrical mix? if so, then now I have the Theatrical for both Empire and Jedi so I can replace my captured PCM tracks.

1 more thing, are these Digital PCM tracks the same tracks that are on the Japanese Special Collection? if so, then no need to rip them correct?

Thanks

*edit - 1 more thing, where exactly do you look on your LD's to find these mint marks and such? I really would like to go through my entire Star Wars collection of LD's(Thanks Russ for helping obtain all these babies LOL) and find out which versions I have exactly.

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^Cool, so that means all the Mitsubishi SWE Trilogy are preserved.
(I got Mitsu ANH in my collection, but not the sequels.)

dark_jedi said:


where exactly do you look on your LD's to find these mint marks and such?

They're etched into the reflective layer just beyond the edge of the label.

Blam1 show Technidisc marks

But be warned, you won't always get the manufacturer's name spelled out like that.
Many times it will be just alpha-numeric codes. To translate them, read Chapter 9 of
Bob Niland's FAQ

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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Thanks, but do have answers to these?

Now what I need to know is this, is the Empire Strikes Back above the Theatrical mix? if so, then now I have the Theatrical for both Empire and Jedi so I can replace my captured PCM tracks.

1 more thing, are these Digital PCM tracks the same tracks that are on the Japanese Special Collection? if so, then no need to rip them correct?

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Keeping it simple.

Purely based on what I have read on this forum and the other popular Star Wars/LD sites, my answers are, Yes and Yes.

You now have all you are looking for......

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russs15 said:

Keeping it simple.

Purely based on what I have read on this forum and the other popular Star Wars/LD sites, my answers are, Yes and Yes.

You now have all you are looking for......

I am fairly certain of this as well, but I just want to make sure before I start the long boring process of putting these audio files in sync, and believe me, it is BORING! so if anyone knows anything please let us know.

Thanks

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dark_jedi said:


So can anyone else please verify that the info in this post is correct? Mallwalker do you know for sure?
I don't know for sure.



Arnie.d said:


Darth Mallwalker, do you have plans to rip the audio of the JSC?

Here's what happen whenever I try it.

Up until now all the ones I ripped had two seconds of blackness at the start, or else a LaserVision bumper on each side.
But JSC is different. On JSC the movie start at the very first frame on each side (only Side1 has a bumper).
This example show ROTJ Side5. Other JSC sides are quite similar in that regard.
These are several 'takes' from the same recording session:
http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/8949/best4.th.png
As you can see, they do not begin at the same byte each time.
The track on top looks most complete of all; it starts soonest.
While the tracks below it are missing at least 25 samples in the shaded region.
Maybe the top one is missing some samples itself? But how many?!?


Once in a while, usually after a 'cold start' I'll get this:
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/8924/witha.th.png
Here the track on the bottom is missing ~17ms, which happen to be the duration of one field in the NTSC stream.
I guess it's like setting the needle on a phonograph and missing the first notes of a song.
I can avoid that situation by spinning the motor first -- that is, leaving the player in Pause mode, or single-step mode, with the motor spinning, then press Play.
So that second pic isn't really a problem, just a curiosity.

However the first picture still bothers me a lot.
How can I be sure I'm getting all the samples?
Or less optimistically, How can I measure how many samples might be missing?
I'd be reluctant to post something like that on Usenet. Would need a BIG disclaimer...

I wonder if collaboration with schorman13 might shed some light? After his JSC is delivered, maybe he'll record the first few seconds of ROTJ Side5 (or any other JSC side really) so I can compare with mine. I would appreciate help.

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r