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Ask the member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints AKA Interrogate the Mormon — Page 6

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Bingowings said:

Is Kolob a star, a planet, a star system or all three (depending on the reference)?

 Kolob is a planet, the closest to where God resides.  We believe in an omnipotent, omniscient God, but we believe that he has an actual body, that we were literally created in his image, and that therefore he exists in a definite point of space, just like we do.  This may sound science-fiction-like to many, but to us it is quite logical.  In fact, if you believe in a resurrected Jesus Christ and Heaven, you believe in God being in a single point and residing somewhere.  What's wrong with that somewhere being a definable spot?  How this relates to literal astronomy, I'm not certain.  I have a feeling there is more to this than we understand, and that there is a great deal of symbolism in this.  Perhaps these stars are not simply existent in a universe as we understand it, but instead it is a way of teaching us of a heavenly plane.  I'm not certain, but I hope that clears it up a bit.

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Hope we're caught up and my answers aren't too confusing.  What's kind of interesting about many of these lines of questioning is that these topics are not particularly central to our beliefs, and we do not speak about them in any depth very often.  It's not like we sit around with telescopes looking for Kolob or anything like that.  We spend our time talking about things that are pertinent to salvation, things that probably do not seem so weird to others.  Many of these things are simply not terribly important, and in my view are probably symbolic and analogies of something more eternal that we don't necessarily understand.

You may proceed to ask more if you like, but at this point I will probably not answer for a few days.

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timdiggerm said:

CP3S said:

I grew up in city that had a large enough Mormon population that we had a massive temple in the middle of it. If you were white and middle-class in that town, there was a very high chance you were Mormon. I once had an elderly woman approach me in the toy section at some department store when I was six or seven and tell me what an adorable young man I was, then asked if I was LDS. When I told her "no" her response was to look away, say "That's ashame." and not say another word to me. Creepy to start with, that just made it creepier.

My guess? She has a granddaughter and was looking for a nice, young, handsome LDS guy for her. Mormons can't marry non-Mormons, so she wasn't interested in your meeting her granddaughter anymore.

I'd be interested in hearing thoughts about the "white and middle-class" bit, though.

You did catch the part where I mentioned I was six or seven years old at the time, right?

As for the white and middle-class bit, I am from a white middle-class family and grew up in white middle-class neighborhoods, there were actually Mormon church buildings scattered every so many miles throughout the neighborhoods. In fact, there was this really cool wooded area with a creek a short bike ride from the house I lived in while in elementary school. Several years ago I went back to where I grew up to visit family and decided to give the old creek a visit. I was kind of surprised to find the trees had been torn down, the creek and canals filled in, and a Mormon church building occupying the spot. 

I never saw Mormon churches scattered in the poorer lower class neighborhoods of my home town; and when I was a bit older I got my first job working on construction sites in some of the more ritzy parts of town, and noticed the lack of Mormon churches in those neighborhoods as well. That probably doesn't mean much and isn't much to go by, it just seemed like it was kind of a white middle-class thing (but maybe that is just organized religion in general). The Hispanics I worked with in construction were never Mormons, and I don't recall any of the upper-class white contractors I worked for being LDS either. But usually in school I seemed to be one of only three or four kids in my class who were not Mormon.

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darth_ender said:

CP3S said:

TV's Frink said:

But the fact (?) that Jesus turned water into wine does make me wonder (again) why alcohol has to be off-limits.  How is this reconciled?

Sadly he seemed content with this and we moved on to other topics. Surprisingly, I've heard the "Clearly it was non-alcoholic wine" on several other occasions. Leads me to believe people will contort their brain to believe anything, no matter how unlikely, as long as it supports what their religion teaches.  Never mind that in a time when refrigeration didn't exist non-alcoholic wine (grape juice?) would spoil in no time flat, clearly wine was non-alcoholic in those days.

 

I am under the impression that you are religious, so you should understand this.

I am not. But I do respect religion, for the most part. I also have an extreme interest in religions, and like to study them.

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darth_ender said:

timdiggerm said:

CP3S said:

<snip> was LDS. <snip>.

<snip>young, handsome LDS <snip>

 <snip> LDS <snip>

I'm sorry, but all I can think about when I read that, is Star Trek 4.

 

<span style=“font-weight: bold;”>The Most Handsomest Guy on OT.com</span>

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Mrebo said:

Discussion poodoo (usefully ambiguous word, in this context).

Serious question: are Mormons going to try to convert me after I die? Or was that only for Jewish people?

Disclaimer: The views expressed in this link are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of Mrebo.

 

TV's Frink said:

 

More recently, and very weirdly, the Mormons have been caught amassing great archives of the dead, and regularly “praying them in” as adherents of the LDS, so as to retrospectively “baptize” everybody as a convert. (Here the relevant book is Alex Shoumatoff’s The Mountain of Names.) In a hollowed-out mountain in the Mormons’ stronghold state of Utah is a colossal database assembled for this purpose. Now I have no objection if Mormons desire to put their own ancestors down for posthumous salvation. But they also got hold of a list of those put to death by the Nazis’ Final Solution and fairly recently began making these massacred Jews into honorary LDS members as well. Indeed, when the practice was discovered, the church at first resisted efforts to make them stop. Whether this was cultish or sectarian it was certainly extremely tactless: a crass attempt at mass identity theft from the deceased.


...


What?

 

TV's Frink said:

A slightly more balanced account:

http://www.pbs.org/mormons/etc/genealogy.html

The practice has not been without controversy, however. In the mid-1990s, there was a backlash when it was uncovered that the names of about 380,000 Jewish Holocaust victims had been submitted for posthumous baptism by what church historian Marlin Jensen calls "well-intentioned, sometimes slightly overzealous members." In 1995, the church agreed to remove the names of all Holocaust victims and survivors from its archives and to stop baptizing Jews unless they were direct ancestors of a Mormon or unless they had the permission of all the person's living relatives. However, Jewish names have periodically been discovered since the 1995 agreement, including that of Holocaust survivor and Jewish human rights activist Simon Wiesenthal, which was found and removed in 2006. Catholics and members of other faiths have also been upset at the practice.

To put it simply (and to partially answer a concern raised by 005), we believe that we have the fullness of truth, insofar as God has revealed to man, as well as proper authority to baptize.  Remember, we believe we are a restoration of Christ's church.  As such, we believe that many have missed the opportunity to receive the gospel.  We make this available through baptism for the dead, as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:29, and as evidenced by other scriptures, such as Malachi 4:5-6 (in reference to genealogy and the connection between ancestors and descendants, John 5:25, 28-29 (in reference to the deceased having the opportunity to hear the voice of Christ and accept or reject him), 1 Peter 3:18-19 and 4:6 (referring to Christ preaching to those who had already died), and Matthew 16:17-19 (referring to the priesthood power being able to bind on earth, and therefore bind in heaven).   You see, we believe that those who missed the opportunity to accept Christ's gospel in this life will have the opportunity in the next.  Baptism for the dead is an opportunity for them to receive the ordinances they received.  Ideally, members will research their family's names and do perform the work for the dead for them.  To do such work for Holocaust victims was purely well-intentioned.  Since they do not believe it a valid ordinance, no one thought it would be offensive, but it is of great significance to us.  Even the Founding Fathers of the United States have had this same work done for them.  But out of respect for the offended Jews, and as pointed out in your more balanced article, the names have since been removed from the list, which essentially undoes the work for the dead.

 

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CP3S said:

darth_ender said:

CP3S said:

TV's Frink said:

But the fact (?) that Jesus turned water into wine does make me wonder (again) why alcohol has to be off-limits.  How is this reconciled?

Sadly he seemed content with this and we moved on to other topics. Surprisingly, I've heard the "Clearly it was non-alcoholic wine" on several other occasions. Leads me to believe people will contort their brain to believe anything, no matter how unlikely, as long as it supports what their religion teaches.  Never mind that in a time when refrigeration didn't exist non-alcoholic wine (grape juice?) would spoil in no time flat, clearly wine was non-alcoholic in those days.

 

I am under the impression that you are religious, so you should understand this.

I am not. But I do respect religion, for the most part. I also have an extreme interest in religions, and like to study them.

Well, I certain appreciate such respect, and in turn respect non-believers like you.  Those who are disrespectful, believe religion is the source of all evil, or are simply convinced of their superiority get under my skin.  But the same can be said of any religious person who acts equally disrespectful.

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greenpenguino said:

darth_ender said:

timdiggerm said:

CP3S said:

was LDS. .

young, handsome LDS

  LDS

I'm sorry, but all I can think about when I read that, is Star Trek 4.

 

Ah, yes, one of my favorite jokes in the film.  Spock really got into the '60s after all, and did a little too much LDS.

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 (Edited)

darth_ender said:


To do such work for Holocaust victims was purely well-intentioned.  Since they do not believe it a valid ordinance, no one thought it would be offensive, but it is of great significance to us.  Even the Founding Fathers of the United States have had this same work done for them.  But out of respect for the offended Jews, and as pointed out in your more balanced article, the names have since been removed from the list, which essentially undoes the work for the dead.

Do you not understand how offensive this would be to a Jew?  Jews do not believe that Christ is the Son of God, any more than you believe an atheist's view that God does not exist.  Imagine if there was a centralized atheist movement that "released" dead Mormons from the "grip of God."  Would that not offend you?

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Added thought:

Perhaps it was well-intentioned.  But it was horribly misguided.

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It honestly would not offend me.  I'd simply laugh at it.  If I don't believe someone else's efforts at "freeing the souls of my ancestors" were real or valid, I would simply shrug it off.  But I do understand where they're coming from, and as I said, the situation was rectified.

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darth_ender said:


To put it simply (and to partially answer a concern raised by 005), we believe that we have the fullness of truth, insofar as God has revealed to man, as well as proper authority to baptize.  Remember, we believe we are a restoration of Christ's church.  As such, we believe that many have missed the opportunity to receive the gospel.  We make this available through baptism for the dead, as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:29
I was trying to leave this thread alone, but I had to comment on this. That's the verse that's used to justify the baptism of the dead? Paul was writing to the Corinthians because some of them denied the Resurrection, but still were baptized in the name of Jesus. Paul was saying that who gets baptized in the name of a dead person if everyone is just going to stay dead? He was trying to convince them that they needed to accept the Resurrection to make their faith real. Even the context of the chapter on your site says as much.

I don't want to fight or alienate my friends here, I just had to weigh in. I'm done here.

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 (Edited)

On a lighter note...

 

I was looking at the Mormon website and stumbled upon this image:

http://mormon.org/bc/assets/images/faith/hero-8.jpg

My question is this....what's up with grumpy baby? ;-)

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James T. Kirk said:

[Explaining Spock's odd behavior] Oh, him? He's harmless. Part of the free speech movement at Berkeley in the sixties. I think he did a little too much LDS. 


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TV's Frink said:

On a lighter note...

 

I was looking at the Mormon website and stumbled upon this image:

http://mormon.org/bc/assets/images/faith/hero-8.jpg

My question is this....what's up with grumpy baby? ;-)

C'mon, Frink.  You of all people should know that there are those who are just grumpy all the time ;)

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darth_ender said:

James T. Kirk said:

[Explaining Spock's odd behavior] Oh, him? He's harmless. Part of the free speech movement at Berkeley in the sixties. I think he did a little too much LDS. 


Oh, I got the reference, no worries there. I was referring to the "What does God need with a spaceship?" bit.

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doubleofive said:

 

darth_ender said:


To put it simply (and to partially answer a concern raised by 005), we believe that we have the fullness of truth, insofar as God has revealed to man, as well as proper authority to baptize.  Remember, we believe we are a restoration of Christ's church.  As such, we believe that many have missed the opportunity to receive the gospel.  We make this available through baptism for the dead, as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:29
I was trying to leave this thread alone, but I had to comment on this. That's the verse that's used to justify the baptism of the dead? Paul was writing to the Corinthians because some of them denied the Resurrection, but still were baptized in the name of Jesus. Paul was saying that who gets baptized in the name of a dead person if everyone is just going to stay dead? He was trying to convince them that they needed to accept the Resurrection to make their faith real. Even the context of the chapter on your site says as much.

I don't want to fight or alienate my friends here, I just had to weigh in. I'm done here.

 

I assure you, if your comments are respectfully disagreeing, I feel no alienation.  There is only one person who has commented in this thread that has offended me at all (though nothing too bad), and it's certainly not you.  No alienation, and I respect your reasons for disagreeing.  This is actually the sort of thing I'd hoped for when starting this thread.  I don't expect to convince you to change your mind about the intent of that verse, but I hope I can explain why we disagree.

First, to actually support your view: the argument is that Paul was referring to "they" in 29 instead of "we," as shown in the next verse.  He doesn't even say "you."  That said, it does not seem logical to me that Paul, quick to condemn practices of which he did not approve, said nothing the dissuade any such practice, but rather spoke of it in such a casual manner.  But it seems strange to me that there would be such an upset at the thought of performing an act on behalf of those who are dead.  The atonement of Christ was an act performed on behalf of those who were living, would live, and those who had already died.  With both baptisms and the atonement, though an act of salvation may have been performed for someone else, the person must still accept what has been done (in other words, for you Frink, even a baptism of a Holocaust victim does not guarantee in our minds that that person will accept the baptism).

See http://en.fairmormon.org/Baptism_for_the_dead for some more information, including references to historical precedent.  Also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_for_the_dead#1_Corinthians_15:29
 for discussion on alternative interpretations.

Doubleohfive, I'm sure you have more objections to what I believe than just this.  If you want to address it, I welcome it.  You have never been anything but respectful in every post I've ever read, and I believe we can discuss this without any hard feelings :)

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timdiggerm said:

darth_ender said:

James T. Kirk said:

[Explaining Spock's odd behavior] Oh, him? He's harmless. Part of the free speech movement at Berkeley in the sixties. I think he did a little too much LDS. 


Oh, I got the reference, no worries there. I was referring to the "What does God need with a spaceship?" bit.

Ah, can't believe I didn't get it.  Yes, now that you explained it, that's very funny.  Sometimes I'm a little slow.

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darth_ender said:

C'mon, Frink.  You of all people should know that there are those who are just grumpy all the time ;)

:-/

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 (Edited)

darth_ender said:


With both baptisms and the atonement, though an act of salvation may have been performed for someone else, the person must still accept what has been done (in other words, for you Frink, even a baptism of a Holocaust victim does not guarantee in our minds that that person will accept the baptism).

I don't understand this.

What you have said implies that the dead person has the capability of accepting the salvation.  If this is true, why would the dead person need someone living to provide salvation?  Wouldn't God (or Jesus, not sure which applies here) offer the salvation to the dead if they were worthy?

Isn't this then more about the living than the dead?

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Briefly, We live our lives, and the kind of person we are remains with us.  When we die, we don't hop straight to heaven, but instead await judgment.  During this time, those who did not accept Christ in life (through ignorance or rejection) have the opportunity to accept him there.  If they accept him, great!  But they may have missed out on the ordinances that he commanded be performed for them, i.e. baptism, while on earth.  Thus, in what I believe is not simply a workaround, but rather an opportunity for bonding and sacrifice on behalf of those who have gone before, those who still live and have a body can perform the ordinance for the dead.  Now the dead accepts Christ, and with the proxy ordinance in place, is now read to face Christ for judgment.  And the living proxy has, in his or her very small way, emulated the Savior by performing a saving act that someone else could not perform for him/herself.  Hope that helps.

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But the dead have no need for a ceremony on Earth to allow them to accept Christ, unlike the living.

I understand that I'm never going to get this.

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See, we believe they do.  They didn't get that ceremony on earth, so they get it in the afterlife.  They can accept Christ as a Savior, but he did command that all be baptized.  How fair is it to create a commandment they couldn't fulfill because they didn't know.  Hence, baptism for the dead.