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OFFICIAL: Library of Congress had original prints replaced with 1997 SE — Page 7

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I still can't get over Fox putting the 2004 SE in their 75th anniversary set in the 70's set.

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doubleofive said:

I still can't get over Fox putting the 2004 SE in their 75th anniversary set in the 70's set.

Why? With the exception of Cavalcade, the whole set was just reissues of existing releases anyway; sure, Fox probably "cheaped out," but that is to be expected. Most studios who do special studio anniversary box sets or Oscar box sets or the like just rehash the existing versions.

The only way the original version would have been on it would be if they used the 2006 GOUT version. Even if Fox had wanted to put a new anamorphic transfer of original version on the set, it would have been up to LFL to provide one, and LFL would have obviously said no.

Fox cannot release the original versions without the approval of Lucasfilm, because as zombie has pointed out, they do not actually own the films. LFL makes the major decisions involving the films, and Fox is bound by the terms of their contract and by the wishes of Lucas and company. This is why I believe that the cease and desist order given to the organizers of that Technicolor film festival originated with Lucasfilm. Like zombie, I continue to believe that if Fox actually owned the trilogy outright, the OUT would be available and would receive treatment at least on par with the Alien films, simply because they would understand that the OT are perhaps the most profitable films in their catalog, and that any money expended to make quality versions of the OUT available to the public would be made back many times over.

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doubleofive said:

Star Wars:

Won Academy Award for Best Art Direction
Won Academy Award for Best Costume Design
Won Academy Award for Best Film Editing*
Won Academy Award for Best Visual Effects*
Won Academy Award for Best Original Score
Won Academy Award for Best Sound*
Won Special Achievement Award for Sound Effects Editing*
Nominated for Academy Award for Best Actor in a Supporting Role (Alec Guinness)
Nominated for Academy Award for Best Original Screenplay (George Lucas)*
Nominated for Academy Award for Best Director (George Lucas)*
Nominated for Academy Award for Best Picture*

The Empire Strikes Back:

Won Special Achievement Award for Visual Effects*
Nominated for Academy Award for Best Music, Original Score+
Nominated for Academy Award for Best Art Direction - Set Decoration

Return of the Jedi:

Won Special Achievement Award for Visual Effects*
Nominated for Academy Award for Best Art Direction/Set Decoration
Nominated for Academy Award for Best Sound Effects Editing*
Nominated for Academy Award for Best Music, Original Score+
Nominated for Academy Award for Best Sound*

*Not available in this release.
+Mostly there

I would say that the Art Direction/Set Decoration for Empire isn't exactly the same anymore either.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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doubleofive said:

I still can't get over Fox putting the 2004 SE in their 75th anniversary set in the 70's set.

Did you buy the set? Just curious, as I've been trying to find out which version was in it for months now. All the Amazon "reviews" were of no help.

Even the fellow with website showing off his huge SW video collection over at the Home Theater Forum was balking at buying that behemoth!

Forum Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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I don't understand why the LOC can't copy the existing older prints they have of Star Wars.

You know of the rebellion against the Empire?

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Erikstormtrooper wrote: I don't understand why the LOC can't copy the existing older prints they have of Star Wars.

First off, Copyright prohibits them. 

The LoC can't do anything until copyright expires on a work.  They might be able to do things in house without telling anyone, but they can't tell anyone and they can't tell anyone.  And if it did get out that they were reproducing anything prior to copyright expiration, heads would roll.

The LoC has millions of miles of film to preserve.  When the task is that great, priorities are set.  A film (which is hugely popular, has been included in the NFR, and the copyright owner is highly respected in the preservation game) does not deserve the attention of an older lesser known or significantly older, or significantly more volatile film.

So even if the film got to the top of the list, then what method of reproduction would need to be figured out.  As pointed out in the thread's article, certain types of prints require a different reproduction method.  The best method would be a photochemical reproduction, but IB Technicolor prints don't reproduce well.  (don't think the LoC versions are this though)  So then you have to examine what equipment is available, and man power/knowledge.  Eventually the LoC gets probably all technology, but if the only equipment currently available was a 2K digital scanner would you bother?  Would that change, if it maybe 15 years before the 4K scanner to show up.

 

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Maybe they will one day backup the film. I know they have funding issues, and that's a big reason that prevents them from doing a lot of things. The upper-echelon people there have a lot of films in much, much more dire need than Star Wars. Probably a lot of them say, "isn't that film on Blu ray? Why are we worrying about this when these other priceless films are rotting?"

That's one reason why sites like this and savestarwars.com are useful. A few of the librarians and preservationists there are star wars fans, and they used the pages I had written there about the state of the deteriorating O-neg as proof to their supervisors that Star Wars was a priority. That was this year. As a result of those pages existing and that info being researched and made public, the status of the films was changed so that they were better preserved as a priority.

So, maybe in the future they may back these up. In the past, it wasn't seen as a priority when balanced against their budget. Now, that is starting to change. That's why I take what we do seriously. We can make a difference, and we have.

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SilverWook said:


Did you buy the set? Just curious, as I've been trying to find out which version was in it for months now. All the Amazon "reviews" were of no help.

Even the fellow with website showing off his huge SW video collection over at the Home Theater Forum was balking at buying that behemoth!
I did not, I'm going by the same logic TServo had, we'd have heard if it was the GOUT. Just the fact that the choice had to be made between a new version of the film or a crappy laser disc transfer is what gets me.

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Can we get someone in the clergy to ask Lucas to release the OOT?

Then he can thumb his nose at man, country, and God.

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Someone could make the argument to LoC/NFR that their mandate of preserving films requires them to restore it and make copies.  If they don't, they're not much more than a glorified storage vault.

My outlook on life - we’re all on the Hindenburg anyway…no point fighting over the window seat.

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none said:



Erikstormtrooper wrote: I don't understand why the LOC can't copy the existing older prints they have of Star Wars.


First off, Copyright prohibits them. 

The LoC can't do anything until copyright expires on a work.  They might be able to do things in house without telling anyone, but they can't tell anyone and they can't tell anyone.  And if it did get out that they were reproducing anything prior to copyright expiration, heads would roll.


I'm not entirely sure that's true... If it's on the National Film Registry I think they might be allowed to duplicate/preserve it without the copyright owner's permission. But don't quote me on that as I'm not 100% positive.

Of course, if they can legally preserve/duplicate it, they still wouldn't be allowed to make copies for distribution.

I do know for certain that they are legally allowed to screen anything in their collection publicly, copyright or not, so long as it's screened for free at the LoC's theater facilities.

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canofhumdingers said:


I'm not entirely sure that's true... If it's on the National Film Registry I think they might be allowed to duplicate/preserve it without the copyright owner's permission. But don't quote me on that as I'm not 100% positive.

Of course, if they can legally preserve/duplicate it, they still wouldn't be allowed to make copies for distribution.

I do know for certain that they are legally allowed to screen anything in their collection publicly, copyright or not, so long as it's screened for free at the LoC's theater facilities.

 

I can see it now. A newly organized movement begins to preserve and release the UOT. The internet is abuzz for months. Thousands of SW fans head to DC to attend a planned screening of SW and ESB in their unaltered glory by the LoC. People like Gary Kurtz, Paul Hirsch, and Lawrence Kasdan attend the screening to show their support. The event sends ripples throughout the film community. It's a huge hit. Pressure on LFL to properly restore and release the UOT increases. After months and maybe a year or more, LFL consents and the fans get what they've wanted for so long. The excitement and happiness mirror the celebration on Endor at the end of ROTJ. The internet arguments dwindle. Everyone is happy with his/her preferred versions of SW. New generations experience the OT as their ancestors did in the 70s and 80s. Lucas admits he was wrong to change the movies repeatedly. Over time the special editions become a blip in the rich history of SW. The UOT lives on in all its glory!

.

.

.

The UOT was dead; its body, with a broken neck, swung gently from side to side beneath the timbers of Skywalker Ranch.

“Grow up. These are my Disney's movies, not yours.”

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Eh, as nice as it would be, that's about as far fetched as lucas changing his mind tomorrow. As None pointed out, the Library of Congress has limited funds & has miles of film on its list to preserve with the highest priority given to the rarest & most volatile films (namely, those on nitrate stock). But at least they did elevate the copyright deposits to protected & moved them to the best vault they've got. That's at least something.

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canofhumdingers said:

 

none said:



Erikstormtrooper wrote: I don't understand why the LOC can't copy the existing older prints they have of Star Wars.


First off, Copyright prohibits them. 

The LoC can't do anything until copyright expires on a work.  They might be able to do things in house without telling anyone, but they can't tell anyone and they can't tell anyone.  And if it did get out that they were reproducing anything prior to copyright expiration, heads would roll.


I'm not entirely sure that's true... If it's on the National Film Registry I think they might be allowed to duplicate/preserve it without the copyright owner's permission. But don't quote me on that as I'm not 100% positive.

Of course, if they can legally preserve/duplicate it, they still wouldn't be allowed to make copies for distribution.

I do know for certain that they are legally allowed to screen anything in their collection publicly, copyright or not, so long as it's screened for free at the LoC's theater facilities.

 

Zombie's article stated that a private collector had leant his personal technicolor print to the LOC, to see if they could make a copy. It turned out they couldn't, so the  print was returned to the collector. So if they can try to copy a print of questionable legality, how's that any different from trying to copy a print they already have that's protected by copyright?

I'm not talking about copies that they could distribute or even screen. I'm talking about copies that would prolong the life of their archival prints, since Lucas refuses to give them a copy of the film in better condition.

You know of the rebellion against the Empire?

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"I was told that Lucas dragged his feet and hemmed and hawed that Star Wars needed restoration work before it could go on deposit, and then what was sent was the 1997 version."

This makes me furious, that "restoration work" ultimately became the SE, the sneaky bastard dragged his feet until he made that version and making the deal with Fox around '97 or '98 so that he now completely owned the rights to the first film.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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Don't forget there is George's own technicolour print.

There is also this:

Lucasfilm, founded by director George Lucas, has gone to great lengths to preserve film, paper records and artifacts related to its productions.57 To use Star Wars (1977) as an example, Lucasfilm's distributor keeps the usual master cut negative and printing materials in a climate-controlled vault but, in addition, Lucasfilm has retained all other production elements. The firm has built its own archives building to house these materials.

SNIP

To return to the Star Wars example, the Library of Congress has copyrighted release prints and reference videodiscs, but the distributor Twentieth Century Fox holds extensive preprint materials and some circulation copies, and Lucasfilm maintains other production elements.


http://www.loc.gov/film/study.html

 

 

 

 

I saw Star Wars in 1977. Many, many, many times. For 3 years it was just Star Wars...period. I saw it in good theaters, cheap theaters and drive-ins with those clunky metal speakers you hang on your window. The screen and sound quality never subtracted from the excitement. I can watch the original cut right now, over 30 years later, on some beat up VHS tape and enjoy it. It's the story that makes this movie. Nothing? else.

kurtb8474 1 week ago

http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=SkAZxd-5Hp8


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walking_carpet wrote: as a copyright holder, lucas can control what the LoC can screen or make copies for distribution?

I wouldn't consider it control.  I would guess out of Courtesy the LoC asks the copyright owner before screening, and if the copyright owner balks or does not give timely permission they do not show the work.

walking_carpet wrote:  but he cannot order LoC prints to be destroyed?

The LoC is in no way ever going to destroy a work on purpose.  But as what may have happened with the Star Wars given to the NFR, Lucasfilm could have asked for the print back, the LoC returns the print, and Lucasfilm never returns it.

From the link danny_boy just posted: (article written in 1993)

Archives, however, are restricted in certain other uses of the copyright-protected films they physically preserve. (They may make films available for on-site study but without permission of the copyright holder or the transfer of rights, archives generally cannot publicly exhibit copyrighted films or distribute them for sale. For further discussion of these access questions, involving copyright, fair use, and "public domain" films, see Section 8.)

and reading further into this doc, this part talks about how the LoC does re-release Public Domain material from their archives:

The first six videotapes in the "Library of Congress Video Collection," due for public release in December, will make available six early silent features and 29 silent shorts from the Library of Congress preservation program.

 

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Zombie's article stated that a private collector had leant his personal technicolor print to the LOC, to see if they could make a copy. It turned out they couldn't, so the  print was returned to the collector.

I guess I misread it but was not that a case they didn´t have the means to copy that particular print?

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none said:

walking_carpet wrote:  but he cannot order LoC prints to be destroyed?

The LoC is in no way ever going to destroy a work on purpose.  But as what may have happened with the Star Wars given to the NFR, Lucasfilm could have asked for the print back, the LoC returns the print, and Lucasfilm never returns it.

From the link danny_boy just posted: (article written in 1993)

Archives, however, are restricted in certain other uses of the copyright-protected films they physically preserve. (They may make films available for on-site study but without permission of the copyright holder or the transfer of rights, archives generally cannot publicly exhibit copyrighted films or distribute them for sale. For further discussion of these access questions, involving copyright, fair use, and "public domain" films, see Section 8.)

 

interesting.  i'll read further.  one of these days ill visit the LoC cuz my dad swears by it and thinks its one of the greatest things our gov created. 

if lucas is truly keen on wiping the OOT off the face of the earth, its interesting he hasn't demanded the prints from the LoC to be given back.  Of course, I also don't believe that he doesn't have pristine remastered copies (he would have to be stupid not to).  its just another trump card  he's keeping in his pocket.  one day he will make enough changes to piss everyone off and hurt the franchise and at this point he'll release the OOT. 

as for the academy awards, I think the academy should vacate all the awards and nominations.  like what the NCAA does.  Or what the national registry for historic landmarks did when the bears modified soldier field.

 if lucas truly believes that the 1977 edition was just a 'workprint',  then vacate the awards and nominations.  and all box office records.  that means ANH only made $150 million. 

lucas probably wouldn't mind - he'll lose a couple nominations but no awards.  and  he would probably love seeing John Dykstra lose an award.

true, the cast and crew (the real stars of the OT) would scream in protest and with good reason.  And every union/guild would fight it. 

True, it comes off as 'two wrongs to make a right'.  but you can't have awards/nominations for films 'that do not exist'.  Maybe that'll apply pressure to have the OOT films properly released.

one last note, i am a little worried about this idea that there is a huge backlog of films that the LoC need to restore and protect.  why so many?  i heard about London After Midnight and would hope what happened with that movie wouldn't be repeated. doing some digging on wikipedia, looks like there are far more films from 20s and 30s that deteriorated than i first realized

click here if lack of OOT got you down

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walking_carpet said:

one last note, i am a little worried about this idea that there is a huge backlog of films that the LoC need to restore and protect.  why so many?

The same reason that school music programs are being gutted.  Government funding for the arts is, unfortunately, not high on the country's priority list these days.

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

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Replaced? What is there no room for both? It's fucking over guys. It's the last nail. We're done.

“What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.”

Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death

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Ziz said:


Someone could make the argument to LoC/NFR that their mandate of preserving films requires them to restore it and make copies.  If they don't, they're not much more than a glorified storage vault.


I agree 110%.

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We need to get Obama in on this. After all, he delivered on a similar issue earlier this week.

 

“Grow up. These are my Disney's movies, not yours.”

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Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

Let's try not to forget that the preservations/restorations coming out of this forum keep getting better, not worse!  And public outcry is on the upswing, for the first time in history.  I'm hopeful.

Really? Because the sales are record-breaking, what makes you think "public outcry is on the upswing?"

“What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.”

Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death