My Top 10 Reasons ROTJ sucks — Page 2

Mrebo said:

With all due respect: meh.

Most of those are nitpicks. Several times you refer to behind the scenes happenings/ideas as if to prove RoTJ was the worst of the "6" when really it just shows that you think it would have been better a certain way.

To some extent I would concede it could have been better in certain places. But that it "sucks" and is the "worst"...hah!

10. Solo was softer. Luke and Leia never shared a romantic kiss. Han did confront Leia twice in RoTJ. I personally didn't need a full-blown love triangle.

9. Seriously...matter paintings help to make this the worst?

8. There were good and bad effects. Just as there were in ANH and ESB.

7. That a son might exercise some wishful thinking in conjunction with the Force that he might believe there to be good in his father? That is not far-fetched. I didn't expect a tender moment in which Vader saves a puppy or something. Luke sensed the struggle and the modicum of good.

6. Kill the black guy? Falling back on that sci fi trope would make this a better movie?

5. For the sake of originality, I would have wanted something different, but it was a very different ending more focused on what was happening inside with Luke vs Emperor.

4. There could have been more tension there, there could've been a love triangle, but meh. Doesn't make or break the movie.

3. Solo didn't have the same edge, as already conceded. But Ford played his role dutifully. I don't care what Ford was saying/doing offscreen.

2. Ewoks are awesome. Get over it.

1. Could've been presented more credibly...but it still worked. Luke was emotional, maybe not as emotional as you would want but he was.

I'll give you partial credit for most points but I most disagree with your conclusion that RoTJ is somehow the worst.

I don't think a complete lack of dramatic impact or any consistent character development to be "nitpicking". Seems like a major flaw to me, but to each his own.

Let's be real, Jar Jar Binks with his Gungans and  Ewoks are duking it out for 'worst element in Star Wars movies".

Harrison Ford, ON SCREEN, in this movie gives the single worst and most uninspired performance of his career.

I don't see Lando as "kill the black guy" as much as "kill a lead character", to the point originally made - to establish some level of sacrifice for the good guys, for the sake of creating an element of danger for the characters, and risk for the audience that someone we have grown to care about, regardless of skin pigmentation, might die on screen.

For Luke to sense, invisible to the audience and not demonstrated by any action or even words spoken that Darth Vader has some 'good in him' is just plain POOR FILMMAKING. There are a myriad of things Lucas (or Kasden) could have done in the screenplay to DEMONSTRATE some wavering from being totally evil. As it is, from episodes iV-V, this comes out of left field and makes no sense.

It's interesting that the OP and I were exactly the same age (11) when we saw Jedi in '83, and yet our opinions are wildly different. I love Jedi and while some parts, I agree, could have been done better - I enjoyed it immensely when it was released and felt it was a fitting end to the trilogy. None of the OP's criticisms ever crossed my mind in '83. And Leia's bikini? Yeah that had an effect on my 11 year-old brain.

One more thing - while Wookiees instead of Ewoks would have certainly been cool, it brings up other problems since Wookiees weren't primitive - they were space-faring and already allied with the rebellion. It would have been a completely different movie, beyond simply replacing Ewoks with Wookiees, is what I'm saying.

twooffour said:

If it said "the worst of the THREE movies", I would maybe read it.
Worse than the prequels, though? I call bullshit on that, without even looking.

Love your open mind. I call "ignorance" on that statement.

As with all of these things, they are purely opinions, neither right nor wrong on any side.

I respect other people's opinions because it is all subjective. There is no objective, absolute right or wrongs about these interpretations or likes and dislikes.

People who like Ewoks are okay. People who love Return of the Jedi are cool with me too. I do not hate the movie entirely, as there are many things that are kick ass in the movie. It's just from the Blu Ray and over 6 years since I last saw Return of the Jedi, it surprised me that I placed it lower than Phantom Menace, for the reasons described.

Phantom Menace is a train wreck too, but there were only a few tiny, slight reasons why I put it above JEDI. Mostly, just scenes with Palpatine. The language suddenly grows up and gets collegiate, much like the way people spoke in A NEW HOPE.

Jaskoen said:

It's interesting that the OP and I were exactly the same age (11) when we saw Jedi in '83, and yet our opinions are wildly different. I love Jedi and while some parts, I agree, could have been done better - I enjoyed it immensely when it was released and felt it was a fitting end to the trilogy. None of the OP's criticisms ever crossed my mind in '83. And Leia's bikini? Yeah that had an effect on my 11 year-old brain.

One more thing - while Wookiees instead of Ewoks would have certainly been cool, it brings up other problems since Wookiees weren't primitive - they were space-faring and already allied with the rebellion. It would have been a completely different movie, beyond simply replacing Ewoks with Wookiees, is what I'm saying.

It is fascinating! I agree.

As for the Wookiees, the point that the empire was xenophobic is not as overt, although present by default (in the OT, there are no aliens serving anywhere in the Empire). Lucas' intent to show that a technologically superior race gets toppled by the primitive locals gets muddled when they are designed more to sell toys than make a sociological statement. As I say in my blog, the single shot where two Ewoks get shot and one of them mourns the dead one - that IS seriously powerful. In my opinion, they needed a lot more DRAMATIC TENSION like that. The price paid for freedom, as it were.

sonnyboo said:

It's just from the Blu Ray and over 6 years since I last saw Return of the Jedi

Mrebo said:

10. Luke and Leia never shared a romantic kiss. Han did confront Leia twice in RoTJ.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize you missed THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK. There's a scene on HOTH after Luke comes out of this healing water tank and Leia kisses him, full on with tongue. Seems kind of romantic and on the verge of being an objective observation.

The blatantly obvious intent of the kiss was to make the Han Solo character jealous. I don't know how things work in your family, but if wanted to make a chick jealous, I don't kiss my sister.

(please don't take too much offense to that snarky reply, but it's demonstrative of a point, not meant as a personal insult)

As for the Han confrontations, as I originally wrote, they have NO DRAMATIC TENSION in JEDI. He just very quickly gives up. This is NOT the character from EMPIRE STRIKES BACK. Compare those two confrontations to the south passage scene in EMPIRE STRIKES BACK where Leia tries to talk Han into not leaving, and he wants a good bye kiss. Then look at the scene on the Falcon where they have their first kiss.

There is no comparison.

RETURN OF THE JEDI has a ton that is flat and uninteresting. I'd even take the horrendous prequel EpII dialogue of "I truly.... deeply.... love you" over this dreck. Not by much, but I would.

Between the prequel trilogy and Return of the Jedi, it's like picking which apple is slightly less rotten.

skyjedi2005 said:

Jedi is a fun movie.  Its entertaining and re-watchable at least to me.

If i had to sit in the cinema through any of the prequels again i would fall asleep from boredom or bring a book to read,lol.

3 of the most boring overhyped cgi spectacles with no plot and zero story ever conceived, even Bayformers are not as bad because at least they don't pretend to be something they are not.

I crossed out everything that had nothing to do with the topic.  You're welcome.

sonnyboo said:

twooffour said:

If it said "the worst of the THREE movies", I would maybe read it.
Worse than the prequels, though? I call bullshit on that, without even looking.

Love your open mind. I call "ignorance" on that statement.

As with all of these things, they are purely opinions, neither right nor wrong on any side.

I respect other people's opinions because it is all subjective. There is no objective, absolute right or wrongs about these interpretations or likes and dislikes.

People who like Ewoks are okay. People who love Return of the Jedi are cool with me too. I do not hate the movie entirely, as there are many things that are kick ass in the movie. It's just from the Blu Ray and over 6 years since I last saw Return of the Jedi, it surprised me that I placed it lower than Phantom Menace, for the reasons described.

Phantom Menace is a train wreck too, but there were only a few tiny, slight reasons why I put it above JEDI. Mostly, just scenes with Palpatine. The language suddenly grows up and gets collegiate, much like the way people spoke in A NEW HOPE.

Because they're better than the Palpatine scenes in ROTJ?

But yea, whatever floats your boat, mate.

*tear*

skyjedi2005 said:

Sonnyboo's argument is very valid imho, when viewed through the saga 1-6 mentality Lucas has been using since the later 1990's.

My Star Wars Saga i grew up with is 1977-1983 and that is the valid way i watch the films.

Not really, because, all the inconsistencies aside, the prequels actually show an Anakin who was originally good (a bit douchey, but overall a quite alright chap), so, say, Vader having something good in him doesn't come as that much of a surprise.

Didn't bother me that much, to be honest - you could already see some brand of "affection" towards his son when he tried to turn him after hacking off his hand (hey, it was a fair duel), and then even more when they were communicating telepathically after that.

We already knew that Vader was originally good, and now that he's the protagonist's father and ESB sort of paved the way, having Luke believe that "something good is in him" isn't in any way absurd.



At any rate, I don't think it makes sense because I cannot reasonably comprehend how someone can consider ROTJ worse than the prequels.
And I'm saying this as someone who probably liked more stuff in the prequels than most others here.

Ford may have been phoning it in in a few scenes, but nothing in Jedi even compares to the horrendous stiffness and boringness of prequel acting at its worst, or even average.
ROTJ still had a clear character arc, even if sort of flawed (Vader suddenly stopping being rebellious, retcons etc.), but consistent with itself.
The prequels' plots were badly communicated and way too disjointed, the main characters sucked most of the time, and well, COME FRIGGIN' ON.

As people tend to say, the clear matters tend to be resolved with hard evidence, and the less clear (but not entirely subjective) ones with rhetorics and discourse.
I don't see how you could make a solid case for ROTJ being worse than the prequels.

xhonzi said:

TV's Frink said:

skyjedi2005 said:

Jedi is a fun movie.  Its entertaining and re-watchable at least to me.

If i had to sit in the cinema through any of the prequels again i would fall asleep from boredom or bring a book to read,lol.

3 of the most boring overhyped cgi spectacles with no plot and zero story ever conceived, even Bayformers are not as bad because at least they don't pretend to be something they are not.

I crossed out everything that had nothing to do with the topic.  You're welcome.

I get your point, but I think ol sky' was on topic.  The OP suggests that RotJ is worse than all 3 prequels.  Sky' is saying that he would rather sit through 1,000 more showings of RotJ before watching another prequel.

I agree with him.

I can't fathom the opinion that places RotJ below the prequels.  It may be that opinions, by nature, can't be wrong... but if they could I would say that opinion is DEFINITELY wrong.

However, I have to also remind myself that the reviewer is basing this wacky opinion on RotJ2011, which I guess I can maybe start to understand.  Last time I tried to watch RotJ2004, I had to turn it off because it was making me angry instead of happy. 

RIP RotJ1983.

Ok, fair enough.  How about "I crossed out everything that you've said a million times before.  You're welcome?"

Mrebo said:

Because such flaws can be found in all the OT and because there is so much greatness in RoTJ. In ANH, Luke defended Obi Wan as a great man against Solo's disparagement. What did Obi Wan do that was so great in the day or two that Luke knew him? Acted nonchalantly after Luke's family was killed? How about when they all jumped into the garbage chute and the Imperials would have easily figured out where they were but sort of disappeared for awhile? How about Alderaan's destruction barely mentioned again? How about how quickly they trusted Lando at the end after he sold them out?

Heh, awesome! Interestingly enough, all of those had crossed my (subconscious) mind, but were never present at the surface.

With the first few, I'd say that it fits Luke's character to be wide-eyed and naive and quickly find trust to his newfound pleasant "mentor" (look how he gets, well, a bit butthurt when Solo disbelieves in the Force, even though Luke never saw a demonstration of it), and it fits Obi-Wan's character to be calm and consoling - probably realizes the grief and doesn't want to annoy him with long speeches.

If anyone is too nonchalant about their death, it'd be Luke. He also doesn't care too much about the death of his friends in the dogfight, it seems, and Alderaan doesn't get mentioned, but all of these are sort of excusable by the fact that the characters have shit to do almost all the time until the end.
Probably started grieving after the parade... or inbetween.

With the garbage shaft, I've always thought the Imperials had launched the death trap to kill the rebels inside, instead of jumping down with them... could've thrown a bomb, though.

But yea :)

sonnyboo said:

For Luke to sense, invisible to the audience and not demonstrated by any action or even words spoken that Darth Vader has some 'good in him' is just plain POOR FILMMAKING. There are a myriad of things Lucas (or Kasden) could have done in the screenplay to DEMONSTRATE some wavering from being totally evil. As it is, from episodes iV-V, this comes out of left field and makes no sense.

 

Well, the strangulation bodycount was considerably lower than before. Vader's got that going for him. ;)