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Are the Jedi so good?

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One thing I find interesting is that the Jedi do not truly represent purity and goodness.  There is quite a bit of room for gray area with them.  Now perhaps one might argue that their reasoning serves a higher purpose, but let me relate a few instances to you, simply from the films or the novels of the films.  Qui-Gon seems to be a particular offender.

Qui-Gon lies multiple times, to Anakin ("Checking your blood for infections..."), to Watto ("I've acquired a pod in a game of chance..."), to Shmi (claiming he was a farmer in the novel).

Qui-Gon actually steals the power supply that Anakin uses in his pod from Watto's shop and does not reveal to anyone where it came from.

Obi-Wan lies about Vader being Luke's father.

The Jedi Council tries to manipulate Anakin and never help him with his concerns.

And there is more, including quotes I did not provide.  I'm sure there are even things I'm not remembering at the moment.  Yet these are the polar opposites of the evil Sith.  Kind of interesting to me that the good guys are sometimes questionable.

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darth_ender said:

Qui-Gon lies multiple times, to Anakin ("Checking your blood for infections..."), to Watto ("I've acquired a pod in a game of chance..."), to Shmi (claiming he was a farmer in the novel).

 

The Jedi Council tries to manipulate Anakin and never help him with his concerns.

 From a certain point of view he WAS checking Anakin's blood for infections- a microscopic lifeform living in his cells.

Does the council manipulate Anakin? They tell him exactly what they want from him... granted it's at times a little shady. And as for his concerns, Yoda plainly tells him to learn to let go. That's the center of the Jedi philosophy, since they are all particuarly vulnerable to a seductive evil force that preys on their attachments.

 

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Very interesting. I found this yesterday while researching for my fledgling prequels regarding Obi Wan's statements about Anakin/Vader.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Well, my big complaint about Yoda and the rest of the Council is that they simply had expectations that Anakin would always be at that point where his life and emotions are in check.  Obviously we all try to keep balance in our lives, but we have points where we simply cannot attain that balance.  It seems to me that Anakin was at a low point, and that Yoda and the rest should have provided additional support for him to help him get back on his feet.  Think how differently ROTS would have ended up if Yoda had taken the time to truly provide understanding counsel to Anakin.  Anakin might have relied more on his support than Palpatine's, and in the end may have made the right choice.

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And then there would have been no Episode IV...

Seriously, the way the Jedi handled Anakin is one of my main gripes about ROTS.

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darth_ender said:

 Think how differently ROTS would have ended up if Yoda had taken the time to truly provide understanding counsel to Anakin.  Anakin might have relied more on his support than Palpatine's, and in the end may have made the right choice.

 I agree PT Yoda was a pisspour teacher and councelor with the perceptions of a block of wood.

900 years of being top dog in the Jedi temple apparently made him a little cocky and too set in his ways.

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 (Edited)

TheBoost said:

darth_ender said:

 Think how differently ROTS would have ended up if Yoda had taken the time to truly provide understanding counsel to Anakin.  Anakin might have relied more on his support than Palpatine's, and in the end may have made the right choice.

 I agree PT Yoda was a pisspour teacher and councelor with the perceptions of a block of wood.

lol at "pisspour" followed up by "councelor"

 

Must be a British thing :p

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TV's Frink said:

TheBoost said:

darth_ender said:

 Think how differently ROTS would have ended up if Yoda had taken the time to truly provide understanding counsel to Anakin.  Anakin might have relied more on his support than Palpatine's, and in the end may have made the right choice.

 I agree PT Yoda was a pisspour teacher and councelor with the perceptions of a block of wood.

lol at "pisspour" followed up by "councelor"

 

Must be a British thing :p

 Righto' guvna. Now get up 'dem apples.

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 (Edited)

The rot sets in in ROTJ.

The original shooting script and the novel expands Ben's reason for fibbing to Luke to underline just how important he is and how recklessly futile his rescue attempt of friends was.

By trimming that Ben comes across as manipulative as Palpatine.

Yoda is keen on Luke facing his fears (he never asks Luke to kill his father just face and defeat Vader) but Ben comes across as being obsessed with Luke killing Vader (which is a bit of tall order after using a myth about a pre-existing murderer to get Luke to start his quest in the first place).

Ultimately it's Yoda's approach of NOT DEPENDING ON WEAPONS (I'm looking at you Lucas) that wins the day.

The PT Jedi are a bloody weird bunch.

When I saw ANH and ESB I never for a moment imagined a child procuring, Ninja, Vatican State, UN peace keeping 'force', that turned a blind eye to slavery enforced familial disconnects while obsessing about celibacy.

It turned an epic battle between good and evil into the clash of two slightly different creepy cults and the resulting fallout.

With poopy jokes for kids. 

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 (Edited)

Depends on if one views the Jedi through the prism of the prequels.

I don't, the prequels are from a galaxy remade in the 1990's.

Lucas basically rebooted the whole universe, but instead of remaking star wars, empire and jedi he keeps trying to edit them to fit the context of the re-imagined universe.

I view the Prequels the same way i do Star Trek 2009, completely different continuity from the prime universe, in this case the OOT.

 

These are not the prequels Lucas had in mind in the 70's and 80's so they had no reason to have been made.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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The Jedi are evil. Killing all those poor clones. So good, they're almost extinct.
Just look how they dress up. Like most of the people from Tatooine. Nothing good comes from Tatooine....

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Bingowings said:

The rot sets in in ROTJ.

The original shooting script and the novel expands Ben's reason for fibbing to Luke to underline just how important he is and how recklessly futile his rescue attempt of friends was.

By trimming that Ben comes across as manipulative as Palpatine.

Yoda is keen on Luke facing his fears (he never asks Luke to kill his father just face and defeat Vader) but Ben comes across as being obsessed with Luke killing Vader (which is a bit of tall order after using a myth about a pre-existing murderer to get Luke to start his quest in the first place).

Ultimately it's Yoda's approach of NOT DEPENDING ON WEAPONS (I'm looking at you Lucas) that wins the day.

+1

The PT Jedi are a bloody weird bunch.

When I saw ANH and ESB I never for a moment imagined a child procuring, Ninja, Vatican State, UN peace keeping 'force', that turned a blind eye to slavery enforced familial disconnects while obsessing about celibacy.

It turned an epic battle between good and evil into the clash of two slightly different creepy cults and the resulting fallout.

+1

With poopy jokes.  You know... for kids. 

 Fixed.

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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xhonzi said:

Bingowings said:

The rot sets in in ROTJ.

The original shooting script and the novel expands Ben's reason for fibbing to Luke to underline just how important he is and how recklessly futile his rescue attempt of friends was.

By trimming that Ben comes across as manipulative as Palpatine.

Yoda is keen on Luke facing his fears (he never asks Luke to kill his father just face and defeat Vader) but Ben comes across as being obsessed with Luke killing Vader (which is a bit of tall order after using a myth about a pre-existing murderer to get Luke to start his quest in the first place).

Ultimately it's Yoda's approach of NOT DEPENDING ON WEAPONS (I'm looking at you Lucas) that wins the day.

+1

The PT Jedi are a bloody weird bunch.

When I saw ANH and ESB I never for a moment imagined a child procuring, Ninja, Vatican State, UN peace keeping 'force', that turned a blind eye to slavery enforced familial disconnects while obsessing about celibacy.

It turned an epic battle between good and evil into the clash of two slightly different creepy cults and the resulting fallout.

+1

With poopy jokes.  You know... for kids. 

 Fixed.

+2 (for the most part)

 

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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 (Edited)

Oh boy! Another chance to reqoute myself!

Tyrphanax said:

However, the one thought that stuck in my head is how the Jedi Council actually seem to encourage students to fall to the dark side... from a certain point of view.

This whole notion of "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it domination your destiny" is a dangerous way to teach things. Even Yoda, who seems like a pretty grounded Jedi says that. Luke's line is appropriate, "You want the impossible." There's absolutely no way the Jedi can expect any human to be able to follow that; everyone has moments of hate, rage, anger, sorrow, and just plain emotion. They can't realistically expect people to not start down the dark path.

So what happens? Padawan Bob has thoughts of anger towards a dueling partner that's bested him and what can he do? He's started down the dark path, hasn't he? How does he feel about it, having heard that emotion is bad his whole life? I imagine with guilt, guilt that he was unable to control his emotions in spite of himself, maybe he thinks he's already most of the way towards being Sith. Can he talk to his master about his feelings and expect guidance? Would he be too afraid to admit his feelings? I'm sure the mark of a true Jedi is to be able to control and stifle these emotions when they feel them coming on, but what if they slip? I'm sure Obi-Wan's initial attack on Maul was fueled by the anger of just having seen his master run through, I'm sure he slipped there. Granted, he calmed down and controlled it later on and won the battle, but what if he had struck Maul down in hate? Would he have been expelled instead of knighted at the end of the movie?

My point is that it seems like the Jedi see things as dangerously black and white. You're either with them or against them (but only the Sith deal in absolutes! =O ). If you slip, it seems like that's it for you. No chance of redemption, no chance of coming back, that's it. You had your chance and you blew it, which is an awful way to run things, there are only so many Force-sensitives in the galaxy, and you're not trying to keep them all? And where do the ones you expel go? I'm guessing they become Sith mostly, considering that the two sides is all they've been taught to see.

This is why I'm not a fan of the Jedi Order, personally. I think they're wildly irresponsible and a threat to the galaxy. By teaching that these natural human responses to situations are wrong and should be ignored and suppressed, all they're doing is setting up for failures. Maybe you have small ones here and there, sure, no biggie, but then you have one like Anakin, who changes the entire galaxy twice. I know they know about the past, instances where Jedi have fallen due to emotions, but that's like banning breathing because one person breathed in poison once and died. Instead, what they should do is teach you to recognize the signs of poison and take steps to prevent or minimize exposure. Emotions are always there, they can't be denied or expunged, but they can be controlled and brought in line. Jolee Bindo had it right.

 

Tyrphanax said:

The way I see it, is that the Jedi Order believes that, since in the past, emotion has caused good Jedi to go bad, in order to prevent that from happening ever again, they have to dissolve all notions of emotion. "If we force them to think they shouldn't feel, then we can bring an end to evil!" But that's a pretty shoddy repair to a big hole in the dam - eventually, it's just going to make things worse.

And it does. Anakin comes around. He has all of these emotions, all of these feelings; love, anger, lust, pride, fear. And he's raised like a Catholic (to think that these natural things are wrong) and so what does he do? Well, what can he do? The way he feels is wrong, the Jedi don't understand it, they don't think he's able to handle it, they don't guide him like he needs, but Palpatine does, Palpatine helps him, he understands him, he nurtures him and consoles him and doesn't judge him. Anakin can't reconcile his feelings with the guilt placed upon him by the Jedi for being human. He freaks out. He snaps. He loses it and rebels in the most glorious fashion, by utterly destroying the entire Jedi Order from within.

How did that happen? How did Anakin fall so hard? Well, as Luke said, "Your overconfidence is your weakness." And so it was with the Jedi Order. They were so confident that they'd found the master switch to stop Jedi falling to the Dark Side, and evidence proved them correct: Ki-Adi-Mundi says that the Sith have "been extinct" for over a millennium, they hadn't had any major Jedi fall in ages, all seemed well on the surface, but like in Jurassic Park, just because the computer is only set to count 200 animals doesn't mean there aren't more than that. The Dark Side may have had a hand in blinding them to the Sith Lord Palpatine right under their noses, biding his time until it was right to strike, but their overconfidence blinded them just as much, if not more so. So confident were they that they'd found "The Final Solution to the Sith Question" in their teachings and were unassailable in their ivory towers on Coruscant, that they basically ignored all the blatant warning signs that Anakin gave that he was in trouble, that he wasn't feeling right, telling him to trust his training and dismissing his pleas for help, right up until he was leading the 501st into the temple to burn their ivory towers down. What he needed was some real guidance, some real help for mastering his emotions instead of useless platitudes about "letting go of the ones you love", but I don't think the Jedi could handle that, so sure were they that their training was adequate to prevent his fall.

And then they all died.

Personally, I think that, now that we have a complete trilogy, it all falls into place. I agree that the saga is the "Tragedy of Anakin Skywalker", but one of the sidestories is about the failing of the Jedi Order. That, as much a wise, grounded Jedi Master Yoda was, he was wrong the whole time, that the entire Jedi Order was completely wrong from the very beginning. They preached a message of non-emotion that is not only impossible, but came back around to destroy them, and even after all his meditating and time on Dagobah, Obi-Wan and Yoda still clung to this faulty ideal:

  • "Once you start down the Dark Path, forever will it dominate your destiny"
  • "If you leave now, help them you could, but you would destroy all for which they have fought and suffered"
  • "If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path, as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil"
  • "Patience!"
    "And sacrifice Han and Leia?"
    "If you honour what they fight for, yes."
  • "Bury your feelings deep down"
  • "He's more machine now, than man. Twisted and evil."

And the most poignant, I feel, is Vader himself, "Obi-Wan once thought as you do... You don't know the power of the dark side. I must obey my master." He says it almost sadly, as if everyone's given up on him, even he believes there is no redeeming him. Like he doesn't want to be Sith, but that's his only option. And with the old Jedi Order, it would be true, they wouldn't try to redeem him, in fact, they told Luke not to even try several times.

But Luke didn't listen, he tried anyway, he had emotion, he had anger. Luke was fearful and aggressive. He felt compassion and love, he ended his training early and went to save Han and Leia, and instead of suppressing these emotions and ignoring them as he, like Anakin, was told, he used them. He controlled them and mastered them. He didn't strike his father down in anger and bend to Palpatine's will as Anakin had with a similarly-disarmed enemy so many years earlier, he was able to control his anger, he used it to defeat Vader, and then reined it in. He did things his own way, contrary to what Obi-Wan and Yoda told him, he used his love and attachment to his sister to defeat Vader, and it was his compassion for Vader, his father, that allowed Vader to use his own love and attachment to his son to defeat the Emperor; they used their emotions to overcome enemies that were previously untouchable to them, instead of burying them as they were trained and failing against their foe as Anakin was powerless to stop Palpatine when he had him at saberpoint in his office.

Luke did the opposite of what Obi-Wan and Yoda taught him, and it worked.

The death of Yoda, Obi-Wan, Vader, Sidious, and the rise of Luke wasn't just a changing of the guard, the rebuilding and continuation of the Jedi Order as it was, it was the rise of a New Jedi Order, a new order that saw the faults of the old order and attempted to fix them; and they do things very differently, if you haven't read the EU; lots of Jedi getting married and such.

I think the smiles of approval from the Force ghosts of Yoda and Obi-Wan at the end, and their acceptance of a redeemed Anakin Skywalker wasn't merely just a "Good job, Luke. It's up to you now" moment, but also an admission. Finally they were admitting they messed up, that somewhere along the line they lost their vision, and that their undoing was their own fault, Luke showed them that they were wrong and, much like when Yoda learned mastery of transitioning his consciousness into the living Force from Qui-Gon, the apprentice became the master: "We were wrong. We said emotion was bad, but you've mastered it, controlled it and used it for good. We said that Anakin was irredeemable, but here he stands with us again. We said that it was all black and white, but you've shown us there is grey. You were right. Thank you. We are secure in the knowledge that you will carry on the legacy of the Jedi."

Keep Circulating the Tapes.

END OF LINE

(It hasn’t happened yet)

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This gets me to thinking...  Vulcans would make great Jedi in the PT universe.  They're masters at suppressing their emotions.  In fact, have you seen Yoda's pointy ears?  He's probably a Vulcan, too.

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The franchises I get nerdy about are so obscure that not even most nerds know about them.

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3.

The amazing darth_ender once said:

You know, I suspect that if these movies came out in sequential order rather than OT, then PT, people would see them as inferior but still decent films.  The passion on this board amuses me.  I certainly don't like the PT nearly as much, but I can still watch and enjoy them.  In my mind, I can incorporate them into my personal Star Wars canon or disregard them, depending on my mood.

To keep with the point of the thread, I would like to comment on one particular aspect which I know has been criticized, but seems logical to me, especially in light of the EU and reality.  As we know, power corrupts.  Any power like the force would be so tempting as to be truly corrupting.  In the Star Wars universe, I suspect that when the force was first discovered, most wielders found themselves utilizing it for evil.  As Yoda said, the dark side is quicker, easier, more seductive.  But it is not more powerful.  As those who learned to use the force become more aware of its capabilities, they also realized that great discipline must accompany its mastery, else the user would fall to the dark side.

So now we get to the PT.  The Jedi are an extremely rigid and disciplined group.  They are indeed powerful force users, but only because they are willing to take years to master the good rather than days to master the evil.  But at the same time, their rigidity contributed to Anakin's fall, their inability to detect Palpatine's growing influence, and it ultimately led to their downfall.

To sum up, I know most do not like the portrayal of the Jedi Order, but to me, it is actually a logical system for security that simultaneously leads to their demise.  I like this idea.  The dark side is not stronger, but the light is so difficult to master.

 

I said this elsewhere which actually prompted you to quote yourself once before, Tyrph, though you only included one of those quotes.  I think you say it so well, however.  This parallels many of our aspirations today.  We have a wonderful system in place (none in specific, but I'm sure you could fill in your own).  It contributes greatly to the benefit of many people.  Then one day, a single person is harmed or defects or something like this.  We order an expensive and thorough investigation into what caused this problem in order to appease the masses.  We then restructure the system so it is stricter, less enjoyable, more unwieldly, more beauracratic, more time-consuming.  The employees are less happy and are now faced with greater responsibility and fewer resources at their disposal than before.  This all holds up for a time, but barely.  But to the outside observer it appears that the problem has been fixed.  Ultimately, the new system fails drastically and self-destructs.  Everybody ends up wondering what happened.

I'm actually venting a little, because the Jedi Order and my last job have a lot in common.  They have restructured behavioral health in my little corner of the state in order to "fix" some problems, but ultimately it has created an unsustainable system that is supposed to be perfect.  When you deal with humans, you have to take into account their needs.  The Jedi Order failed to do this and resultantly are largely responsible for the creation of Darth Vader.  So is the phantom menace known as Cenpatico, the Grand Moff of behavioral health in parts of AZ and other states.

But let me refer again to your post Tyrphanax as a reason that I enjoy the PT.  As I've said time and again, it is clearly inferior to the OT, but on the other hand, it has supplemented and enriched my enjoyment of many aspects of the OT, including my understanding of the flaws of the old Jedi and my hopes for Luke's new Jedi Order.

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Bingowings said:


The PT Jedi are a bloody weird bunch.

When I saw ANH and ESB I never for a moment imagined a child procuring, Ninja, Vatican State, UN peace keeping 'force', that turned a blind eye to slavery enforced familial disconnects while obsessing about celibacy.


The Jedi apparently aren't celibate according to Lucas.

George Lucas said:


Jedi Knights aren't celibate - the thing that is forbidden is attachments - and possessive relationships.


The quote's taken from this BBC article.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/1989505.stm

This makes the Jedi worse IMO.



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DuracellEnergizer said:


The Jedi apparently aren't celibate according to Lucas.

 

I do find this exceedingly creepy. I actually gained a bit of respect for the prequels since they never mentioned this specifically. Jeez... what life styles for characters in what Lucas calls a "Kids' movie."

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That goes against what is said in the star wars rough draft where it is maintained Jedi are supposed to be celibate.

Since this script was written by George Lucas, either he has forgotten or is a bad liar.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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 (Edited)

^Why would the rough draft for the original movie have any bearing on the PT? They're placed in two different continuities.

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It would be just like Lucas to revisit a bad idea, midiclorians,   anyone.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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 (Edited)
The vibe you get from watching the prequels (no matter what crazy George says) is that they're celibate. It must have been hell being a teenager in the Jedi Temple, imagine if you had a class with that blue chick who of course, for some reason, unlike all other Jedi doesn't wear the traditional robes.