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Jeez, what a cocktease... count me out if this is your attitude. Canceling, then going "oh wait" ... I call foul.
A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em
It just shows how quickly I'm finding new information and promising leads in this project!
24 hours ago, I was all set to do a straight '93 transfer and dub in a stereo mix.
Then black magic came along and... well...
LMAO! so now YOU have black magic process? well we have already seen someone try a white magic LOL, so what is yours going to be? gray magic? this deal just keeps getting better and better all the time.
The secret weapon of the first X0 Project was really Laserman's "Black Magic" process, not the X0 player itself. What exactly "Black Magic" was, no one is sure. It was hinted at that it was some kind of professional hardware/software suite.
If you can figure out how to recreate the results of "Black Magic," my hat's off to you.
You know of the rebellion against the Empire?
Essentially, one element of black magic was this...
http://www.photoacute.com/studio/
http://www.photoacute.com/studio/examples/mac_hdd/index.html
But obviously on a far larger scale i.e dealing with tens of thousands of frames.
Black magic took five or six transfers of the same frame and software was used to pick and choose the best elements of each frame and recompose them to create the best possible frame.
This is but one element, de-noising, image and detail preservation are still very much emerging technologies and I'm quite adept at restoration work.
I could even throw in the non-SE'd blu-ray frames just to give alittle more purchase to the frames available to work from.
What you're describing sounds similar to a TOOT (two-out-of-three) filter, which is definitely not the same thing as the "Black Magic" process at all. That's just used to get a transfer as free of analog video artifacts as possible, which was done with the original X0 project in order to prepare for the Black Magic process.
Black magic ain't a miracle that is forever lost, I'm telling you.
I believe combining non-SE'd frames with multiple frame transfers and alot more work after that will yield better results than black magic.
I'll say something right now that's gonna cause alot of bother...
The black magic shots were doctored and in the end, a relatively simple hoax.
My process will be the grail.
Ha. Okay.
X0-1138 said:
You were ALL going to be taken care of!
X0-1138 said:
Black magic ain't a miracle that is forever lost, I'm telling you.
I believe combining non-SE'd frames with multiple frame transfers and alot more work after that will yield better results than black magic.
I'll say something right now that's gonna cause alot of bother...
The black magic shots were doctored and in the end, a relatively simple hoax.
My process will be the grail.
Damn you are really starting here very well LOL, first you bring in a LD cap that is going to 1080p masterfully done, then you cancel, then you whine a little bit about how much work it is going to be, and NOW, you say the X0 Black Magic is a hoax, and your versions will be the "Grail", I am at a loss for words because CROM laughs at your "Grail" LOL.
Hey, I only whined a little bit. It's a big task!
As soon as I saw the black magic caps I thought two things immediately...
1 - Fake
2 - Multiple frame integration
3 - Bit of both
This reminds me of the be all end all transfer that Alexsbmw promised with his super LD player.
Murry Sparkles said:
This reminds me of the be all end all transfer that Alexbmw promised with his super LD player.
Yeah, I've got a blu-ray player as well :-p
Murry Sparkles said:
This reminds me of the be all end all transfer that Alexsbmw promised with his super LD player.
I was thinking of that and the supposed "white magic" crap too.
I've been waiting for this for a while - an X0 project that could actually get FINISHED.
IMO, a proper restoration via an X0 capture is the next best thing to a 35mm scan, which has almost no chance of happening (for legal & financial reasons).
I love that you want to go for the theatrical colours. It'll be tricky, but definitely worth it!
I agree that the Def. Collection shouldn't be used, as not only has it been done already, but that set has DVNR. NO set with DVNR should be used, as tons of fine detail gets covered up.
JSC is a good choice, but I wouldn't overlook the smear-free '93. Yes, it has problems, but some of them might be caused by a poor capture, not the disc itself.
Might it be possible to combine those two sets Black Magic style? Maybe even blend a bit of the upcoming official Blu-ray?
Also, I must ask - will you be using the BNC output? (See post here dated 10-09-08, 03:40 PM)
lurker77 said:
IMO, a proper restoration via an X0 capture is the next best thing to a 35mm scan, which has almost no chance of happening (for legal & financial reasons).
Except that the JSC has less detail than the 93 (even with its smearing), and the GOUT was made from the original 93 master tape. I have my doubts that any laserdisc transfer, X0 or no, could improve on the GOUT.
However...
An X0 capture of the JSC, properly "restored," could be used in tandem with the GOUT to make a "best of both worlds" version. It might even be possible to combine JSC/GOUT shots to make new "hybrid" shots that look better than either version originally did.
But I still have my doubts.
I prefer laserdisc, and even VHS to DVD, because although there's less analog noise, the colours are compressed. I bought the widescreen Faces VHS set, and although the resolution is terrible, both the saturation & range of colours seem better than the GOUT to me.
But maybe it's just the way my brain works. I much prefer colour over clarity...
All right, let's say you're not trolling. Here's what I honestly think you should do:
1. Capture the JSC, release that raw
2. Capture smear-free '93, release raw
3. Mix and match, do your whatever process if you think you can.
A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em
bkev said:
All right, let's say you're not trolling. Here's what I honestly think you should do:
1. Capture the JSC, release that raw
2. Capture smear-free '93, release raw
3. Mix and match, do your whatever process if you think you can.
4. Attempt to merge the upcoming Blu-ray...
...although since the source is SO different, that might be more work than it's worth.
Honestly, I'm not exactly sure what happened with this but please don't cancel this. Don't feel the need to exactly replicate Black Magic or complexly average it with the GOUT; this is your project not exactly what the old X0 was. A fantastic IVTC'ed X0 transfer of the JSC would be more than enough. If it bothers you, you don't even need to do audio work or color correction.
I agree with ChainsawAsh in the fact that the GOUT has been taken to it's limit. However the potential of the JSC is relatively unexplored. A stellar transfer might be of use to future projects. If someone eventually discovers a way to "Black Magic" this, then this will be available for them to work with. The JSC has after all, no clipped whites or smearing. It will be interesting to see how near GOUT quality one can extract from it.
As for using the fixed Special Widescreen Edition, Mallwalker and msycamore have described its many issues, from crosstalk to rainbowing. Msycamore seems to be doing a transfer of it, so we may learn more about that particular release in the near future. To cut to the chase, the JSC may be a better source... for the moment.
I do agree with the two above posters. Even raw transfers would be of interest!
ChainsawAsh said:
Except that the JSC has less detail than the 93 (even with its smearing), and the GOUT was made from the original 93 master tape. I have my doubts that any laserdisc transfer, X0 or no, could improve on the GOUT.
The GOUT only has more detail when everything is holding still. Which is not very often.
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I totally agree. Doing the project in smaller steps is the best way to go.
Zion [X0 project team] only released a raw capture from ANH so far. If I remember correct Zion didn't even get the complete ROTJ capture from MeBeJedi, missing one Laserdisc side.
The community is still missing:
X0 - raw capture of Definitive Collection Ep5 & Ep6
X0 - raw capture of JSC trilogy
X0 - raw capture of supplemental material (1993, 1995, 1997, 2000)
X0 - raw capture of 'from starwars to jedi'
raw capture means uncompressed video (codecs like huffyuv), audio can be supplied by others if necessary.
There are so few that have access to this outstanding player, even fewer having the knowledge how to capture laserdiscs with it.
If you release the raw capture, others can jump in and sync digital audio to them, make uncompressed 24fps progressive masters and rerelease them for the next masering step, which would be cleanup...
What capture card are you using?
That guy with the "white magic" claimed it was all done in avisynth but i could never get him to post his script used in the process. That doesn't really fit into the spirit of this website imo.
Layering different versions over each other is difficult but is achievable. Ultimately, I came to the conclusion that the only thing worth salvaging was the chroma from the GOUT to be overlaid onto the SE. I'm still kind of tinkering with it and have found a couple other programs that work better at image registration than avisynth.
I agree with dark_jedi on the laserdiscs. They are pretty worthless. The JSC is nice to watch because of the lack of dvnr but the level of grain makes me think it is not a good source print. Also it is next to impossible to ivtc unless you know how to manually do it. The GOUT DVD is the best there is imo. I have captured the DC, JSC, and FACES editions with the hope of attaining something to work with but it always eventually gets scrapped because of the limitations of the Laserdisc. In order to get things to look halfway decent you are going to have to filter it and in turn erase detail.
Luke threw twice…maybe.
But remember, we're now dealing with the best laserdisc player ever made, and with the discovery of the "smear-free '93", we now have TWO DVNR-less discs to source from. With the right tech, they very well COULD be blended into something quite worthwhile...
True. I had an idea last night. Remember how Arnie d. was offering his X9 captures of the JSC to anyone who would finish the project. Maybe you could average a capture of the X0 with a capture from the X9. After all, they are the best laserdisc players ever made. The results may be astounding if someone had the right equipment to make this happen...
Although, yes. These laserdiscs are limited but that's no reason not to try pushing the limit. :-D