Star Wars coming to Blu Ray (UPDATE: August 30 2011, No! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!) — Page 191

SilverWook said:

skyjedi2005 said:

SilverWook said:

thejediknighthusezni said:

     Speaking of bonus discs...

     I watched the THX 1138 SE recently. Outstanding restoration and enhancement.

     I'd like to see Amgraf and THX included in an SW saga set!

     I suppose that would create problems with the different studios and lost profit on the single sales.

     OTOH, it would make the saga sets even more appealing and provide vastly greater distribution and awareness for those two great films.

I think I'm going to go out and get drunk now. ;)

Agreed, Lucas destroyed Thx 1138 the same way he did star wars.  CGi lizards and monkeys, wtf.

You forgot the masturbation machine in THX's apartment...

Aw! Ew! Ew! Ew! You made me remember that again!! Fuck!

Except for one or two shots, they never actually fixed that in 97. In the 97SE documentary, they show the shots and you can clearly see it's still transparent: http://youtu.be/V65sZgnVGSQ?t=3m25s

none said:

Let's say they did take their time with this release, what would have been an approximate date for last change?  Do they need a month for reproduction of 100k copies of a 9 disc set?  How many did the 2004 set sell?

Disc replication could be relatively quick - perhaps just a couple of weeks to produce the numbers required:

http://www.singulus.de/de/optical-disc/replikationslinien/bluline-ii-features.html

This quotes a cycle time of 4.5s on a BD-50.

You're looking at 4-6 weeks beforehand to get stock into the logistic and fufillment warehouses.

You've also got to balance up what other titles are going through as well - Q3-Q4 obviously everyone is getting ready for Christmas.

Again, it's not about the date of the last change, that shouldn't be an issue because they shouldn't be being rushed.  There will be a cost involved in how quick the job can be turned around in - ficticous / unrealistic deadlines that have to be met. I have spent months discussing a job in the planning phase only to see the press release go up before the assets turn up , then the client is screaming they're going to miss their deadline.

I guess my main point is that there are different issues which are attributed to different points in the entire process:

• Editorial Changes - Lucas
• Colour Grading - Lucas / Post Production
• Humdinger - VT Ops who didn't runtime the layoff / tape dub
• Overbearing Sound Effects / Mix - Burtt / Wood / Whoever
• Reversed Rear Channels for 1 Real - Compressionist

If you flag a certain issue further down the line, the question is did your company introduce it and unfortunately 'is it good enough'.

The original Godfather DVD release looked awful, everyone said it was awful and I heard through a friend of a friend that he failed it during QC multiple times because it looked awful.  In the end the question was:

Does it look like the Master we were supplied? Yes it did.

Then it has passed QC.

A VT Op should have spotted the Humdinger glitch, but it's not his job to say the lightsabres look wrong, because as a fan he knows they should have white cores. And even if he did, who is going to listen to him?

Same as the original trilogy.  Lucas made the change in 1997 and as far as he's concerend it's done.  Everything else will be based on that, and that's the company line, that's what everyone is briefed on.  Perhaps every once in a while someone tries to suggest a return to the original versions, but probably get's fobbed off by their line manager, or their boss' boss because they know the company line and don't want to rock the boat.  These people have jobs and they can't Martyr themselves because the company doesn't see it the 'fans' way.

I knew there was a reason I just read here and keep my mouth shut - when the worst comes out of this community it's like a gang of whining armchair quaterbacks who don't have a clue how 'the real world' works.

I'm not justifying these practises, it's just the nature of the industry and sadly not every studio is like Criterion.

I think I'll go back to lurking...

DVD-BOY, thanks for posting that info. I know everyone has a job to do. It sucks if someone works in a culture of "yes men", but I don't buy that as an excuse. Ultimately a poor release is still a poor release.

Like Frink said, the problems were a "deliberate creative decision". As you pointed out, this means they were aware of them, but let the discs pass anyway. "Ahh, good enough. It's just Star Wars." Everyone who saw those faults, realized them, and let them pass, is responsible.

It sounds like you're well aware of these problems in QC and the way the industry works. But you blame us for not being able to accept them. Curious.

dark_jedi said:

So by you not accepting them is doing what exactly?

If enough people vote with their wallets and don't buy a product, this tells the manufacturer of said product that consumers aren't pleased with what's been offered to them.  That being said, I anticipate these blu-rays will sell very well.  So, will Lucasfilm be sent a message because a handful of purists don't buy these discs?  No.

is this going to make the powers that be change things?

Again, if these discs sold poorly, then, yes, the powers that be would realize something was lacking in their product and could very likely decide to alter what they had produced in order to improve sales.  But, again, since these BDs will likely sell very well, the answer to your question is "no", nothing will be changed.

Ultimately, I won't be buying these blu-rays for the simple reason that I rarely watch the PT and I'd only be getting the 2004 SEs of the OT all over again.  I look at my Star Wars DVDs sitting on my shelf every day and I ask myself why I bothered buying something that I don't even like.

Personally, I'm much more excited about seeing your Project Blu preservations once they're available than about seeing the SEs in 1080p.

DVD-BOY said:

I knew there was a reason I just read here and keep my mouth shut - when the worst comes out of this community it's like a gang of whining armchair quaterbacks who don't have a clue how 'the real world' works.

As far as the technical points you make, I agree that mistakes like this do happen in other releases.  I once averted a reversed-rear-channel error myself in the studio because the folks were mixing it head on and then just forgot to flip them when they moved them to the rear.  Your point of LFL saying it's a "creative decision" rather than throwing someone under the bus is well taken. And I've seen for myself how difficult it is to get a good white balance on an ESB scan because of the nature of the scenes.  The humdinger glitch is a non-issue and I would guess many releases have such transitory flaws.

But the changes that LFL is doing to SW is not at all "how the real world works".  Changing the films so radically and then not restoring the theatrical versions is very unusual for a motion picture of this importance.  Releasing a non-anamorphic laserdisc master is also not at all customary for a movie with such a significant theatrical impact, especially for a company with the kind of resources and capital that LFL has.

I know I said I was going to go back to lurking, but just reading back through these posts here is a reasonable question that someone may know the answer to:

Has 20th Century Fox ever done a product recall on a DVD or Blu-ray?

• Paramount / Universal did Gladiator for the appalling quality video.
• Warners have done Superman III and IV in the original DVD boxset, as well as Bladerunner and The Matrix.
• Disney did a swap on Pirates of the Carribean Blu-ray.

Have Fox ever admitted an issue with one of their titles?

First 22m of Braveheart has reduced vertical resolution according to this article - http://homecinema.thedigitalfix.com/content/id/71460/braveheart.html (Fox released Braveheart outside US)

Not sure if there are others.

dark_jedi said:

Erikstormtrooper said:

DVD-BOY, thanks for posting that info. I know everyone has a job to do. It sucks if someone works in a culture of "yes men", but I don't buy that as an excuse. Ultimately a poor release is still a poor release.

Like Frink said, the problems were a "deliberate creative decision". As you pointed out, this means they were aware of them, but let the discs pass anyway. "Ahh, good enough. It's just Star Wars." Everyone who saw those faults, realized them, and let them pass, is responsible.

It sounds like you're well aware of these problems in QC and the way the industry works. But you blame us for not being able to accept them. Curious.

So by you not accepting them is doing what exactly? is this going to make the powers that be change things? or are you getting a different Blu-ray Edition? Curious.

Voting with my wallet. If I don't want them, I don't have to get them. And I'm not going to be a yes man about it.

I envy those that are happy with it. I just can't be.

And I have Harmy's despecialized versions to hold me over for now (which you contributed to with your Project Blu).

Very few will admit a problem. It will only be after both industry and mass amounts of the public complain, people stop buying the disc, and the problem is inexpensive to fix.

DVD-BOY said:

none said:

Let's say they did take their time with this release, what would have been an approximate date for last change?  Do they need a month for reproduction of 100k copies of a 9 disc set?  How many did the 2004 set sell?

Disc replication could be relatively quick - perhaps just a couple of weeks to produce the numbers required:

http://www.singulus.de/de/optical-disc/replikationslinien/bluline-ii-features.html

This quotes a cycle time of 4.5s on a BD-50.

You're looking at 4-6 weeks beforehand to get stock into the logistic and fufillment warehouses.

You've also got to balance up what other titles are going through as well - Q3-Q4 obviously everyone is getting ready for Christmas.

Again, it's not about the date of the last change, that shouldn't be an issue because they shouldn't be being rushed.  There will be a cost involved in how quick the job can be turned around in - ficticous / unrealistic deadlines that have to be met. I have spent months discussing a job in the planning phase only to see the press release go up before the assets turn up , then the client is screaming they're going to miss their deadline.

I guess my main point is that there are different issues which are attributed to different points in the entire process:

• Editorial Changes - Lucas
• Colour Grading - Lucas / Post Production
• Humdinger - VT Ops who didn't runtime the layoff / tape dub
• Overbearing Sound Effects / Mix - Burtt / Wood / Whoever
• Reversed Rear Channels for 1 Real - Compressionist

 

If you flag a certain issue further down the line, the question is did your company introduce it and unfortunately 'is it good enough'.

The original Godfather DVD release looked awful, everyone said it was awful and I heard through a friend of a friend that he failed it during QC multiple times because it looked awful.  In the end the question was:

Does it look like the Master we were supplied? Yes it did.

Then it has passed QC.

A VT Op should have spotted the Humdinger glitch, but it's not his job to say the lightsabres look wrong, because as a fan he knows they should have white cores. And even if he did, who is going to listen to him?

Same as the original trilogy.  Lucas made the change in 1997 and as far as he's concerend it's done.  Everything else will be based on that, and that's the company line, that's what everyone is briefed on.  Perhaps every once in a while someone tries to suggest a return to the original versions, but probably get's fobbed off by their line manager, or their boss' boss because they know the company line and don't want to rock the boat.  These people have jobs and they can't Martyr themselves because the company doesn't see it the 'fans' way.

I knew there was a reason I just read here and keep my mouth shut - when the worst comes out of this community it's like a gang of whining armchair quaterbacks who don't have a clue how 'the real world' works.

I'm not justifying these practises, it's just the nature of the industry and sadly not every studio is like Criterion.

I think I'll go back to lurking...

This is a very good point. It's about getting the product out there and marketing the hell out of it to move a mass amount of copies. The film presentation is really the last thing on people's minds. Besides Criterion, Kino and Eureka/Masters of Cinema you're not really ever going to get  painstaking effort by a studio to present films-unless they have already poured a bunch of money into a restoration or new scan. Then they will be more likely to want to make sure that they get their money's worth. MOD services are getting better all the time, and if they move to HD then I think it will only get better. With these titles they have to use the best print from the studio and clean it up like a Criterion transfer. Not the best, but still more care than is put into a catalog release.

And the Godfathers-ugh...they never looked well from the first time I saw them on VHS to LD to that awful, awful DVD set. I gave that away years ago. RH's work on restoring them has got to be freaking near definitive. (Although I wished they had been able to do an analog film restoration, I understand the more cost-effective digital process, but they should have allowed for an 8K scan instead of 4K.)

At least George is only scribbling with his crayons on a crummy over-processed 1080p scan.

from SHTV forums:

Voting with your wallet is the best any of us can do, and the question is if there are enough people to actually make a difference.

I'm not sure on the sales numbers for the 2004 DVD Box Set, but they announced I think it was about 2.5 million copies on it's first day. Of that group, figure how many people were honestly upset about the quality of the set?

To fix the audio issues on Episode IV's rear channels would be $20-25K Tops - that would get you a new encode / DLT Master and probably enough units to send out to those bothered - and to be honest a large part of that may be hit by the company who made the mistake, so the outlay to Fox would be very low - but they don't see the point, and I'm interested to see if they have ever admitted to a mistake.

Chewtobacca is correct, the wording for the product swap for Gladiator was hilarious in not admitting blame for anything - it could have only been written by a lawyer.

Lucasfilm actually made things worse by commenting on the issue at all as it enraged the fans who were bothered by the fact.  But can you imagine if the response had been "Yeah, there is an issue, but our distributor won't admit there is one, so they're not repressing".

Same deal with Fellowship and Peter Jackson - everyone knows there's an issue, it's the elephant in the room.  No one is going to admit it, and they reckon it only affects the minority of people anyway.  Plus with AACS costs, doing a reprint is FAR more expensive than DVD...

I'm not saying it's right, I'm not apologising for it, but I am being pragmatic.  Star Wars to most people is mass market sci-fi marshmallow - it's a movie which people watch and unfortunately, the majority of the world is comprised of a bunch of idiots who don't care enough about lightsabres and audio mixes.  How many actually have their TV sets set up to actually watch anamorphic footage correctly anyway? We all know people like that.

Criterion, Eureka, BFI, Kino all take care over their products because they know they are aiminng at a smaller niche market of film fans who will expect the best they can do.

To everyone else it's a commoditised business.

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

But the changes that LFL is doing to SW is not at all "how the real world works".  Changing the films so radically and then not restoring the theatrical versions is very unusual for a motion picture of this importance.  Releasing a non-anamorphic laserdisc master is also not at all customary for a movie with such a significant theatrical impact, especially for a company with the kind of resources and capital that LFL has.

You're right Puggo, which is why I broke down some of the 'issues' people have with the 2004 DVDs.  What Lucas is doing to the heritage of this film is very sad, but there appears to be nothing that anyone can or is willing to say to change this.  There's only so much you can be at logger heads with your boss / client before you have to accept that they pay your wage / your bills.

What I am saying is that we should understand that not everything that is wrong with the 2004 DVDs is Lucas' fault.  If the mix in the rears isn't reversed on the new Blu-rays, will everyone say "He's listened to us!" or is it more of the case that the encoding Monkey didn't make the same mistake twice?

Of course William's score will still take second place to Ben Burtt's effects track...

none said:

DVD-BOY wrote:

You're looking at 4-6 weeks beforehand to get stock into the logistic and fufillment warehouses.

So this is 4-6 weeks for production, there's also shipping/distribution.  Working backwards from Sept. 19, going with 2 weeks for shipping/distribution worldwide (seems low, would crates of disc be shipped overseas by ship or plane?), that's two months which could make the drop dead point for revisions being mid-July 2011.  canofhumdingers introduced the Humdinger to the public's attention June 26, so it's possible if LFL didn't know about it before then, they had a small window to fix it.

If they had gotten to that late stage to only then realise about the Humdinger glitch, they could have gone back and got it fixed - it would have been a real scramble but if your client brings up such a basic VT error, and let's not forget ALL of Star Wars work could be done at the same facility, then you would pull WHATEVER you could out of the bag to hit the defined deadline.  Worse Case Scenario, they're scraping 1million+ Blu-ray discs and re-pressing - who do you think is going to pay for that?

Or maybe it was spotted and fixed - no one is going to admit they missed it the last time.

Replication you would just send electronic masters around the world and replicate in territory - hence the slight differences to packaging.  Don't forget my original link was for a single replication machine - these companies will have 10, 20 lines by now.  What big Playstation 3 games are coming out in October / November? What about Jurassic Park?  Companies have a lot of discs going through right now.

Hmm, they show fixed sabers (crossed in front of Palpy) there, yet still show the messed up ones in trailers...

Makes sense.

Kayleen Walters from Lucasfilm wrote:

Because the restorations in 2004 were really ahead of their time, ...

ROFL!  So there are going to more "restorations" like that?