anothe example of lucas changing things to appeal to a new generation lightsaber dueling styles of OT vs PT — Page 6

TV's Frink said:

ToscheStation said:

TV's Frink said:

twooffour said:

It's worthy to note, however, that the Windu vs. Palpatine duel had next to no acrobatics (only one short frame of CG Palps doing some frog flip against a desk), and it was one of the most tense, intense duels in the prequels.

All of Palpatine's terrible facial expressions would like a "word" with you.

 

   lol.

 TV's Frink said:  "The Titanic would like a word with you."

 make that two "would like a word with you" references.......

....hmmm, sounds familiar.

I never claimed I don't recycle jokes.

     Two negatives* don't make a right....

    * "I never" +  "I don't"

Actually,  I meant that your "would like a word with you "   bits reminded me of another poster on a different SW message board.

Negative -1.

Anyway, this is the only SW board I visit.  But I'm pretty sure I stole the phrasing from someone either here or on another forum.

Thank you for the informative response!

Just to clear it up, though, that's what I meant - that they're much better than the BEST in real life, you know, for awesome movie purposes.
Their reflexes are so fast that they can deflect strokes that would've killed the very best real life fighters 15 times.

I'm not trying to be a smartass here (I know very little about swordfighting or martial arts), but I guess it's a matter of how believably it comes off on screen.
When they do their minute long exchanges, or twirl around, can one analyze their movements and show where exactly the other guy could've hit and pwnd, but didn't because he's so lame (=for movie purposes)?
Or is it more like "it does work on screen, but real-life people would've long failed at some move by that point"?


I guess that's really my question here. Some unconvincing examples from the prequels aside, I've looked at some in slow motion, particularly Maul vs. Obi (it was a while ago, though), and my impression was that there was no time for Maul to hit Obi while he was twirling, because his saber was still recovering from the momentum of a previous stroke, and Obi's saber was ready for defense in a matter of no time.

It becomes a point of just how far can you suspend your disbelief? I would relate it to jumping ability of the Jedi. In ESB & ROTJ, we see that Luke, as he progresses in his jedi training, gains the ability to jump higher, farther, and faster than normal humans. He has become superhuman. But it's not "MILES" farther... It's enough to clearly be beyond the ability of real people, but not so much that it becomes totally unbelievable. Cut to the prequels where we now have Jedi jumping like frogs so far and high that it becomes utterly laughable. They pushed the boundaries too far & it results in destroying the credibility of anything on screen. I submit that the sword fights suffer the same problem.

twooffour said:

Just like in the Matrix, they jump between skyscrapers and get pushed through concrete walls with zero injury - but it's not real, so it doesn't really bother.
Obviously, throgh a real guy at a stone wall, the wall won't break, his spine will

The Matrix isn't real.  The Jedi live in a world where they have more abilities than normal people.  Not the same thing.

ToscheStation said:

TV's Frink said:

ToscheStation said:

TV's Frink said:

twooffour said:

It's worthy to note, however, that the Windu vs. Palpatine duel had next to no acrobatics (only one short frame of CG Palps doing some frog flip against a desk), and it was one of the most tense, intense duels in the prequels.

All of Palpatine's terrible facial expressions would like a "word" with you.

 

   lol.

 TV's Frink said:  "The Titanic would like a word with you."

 make that two "would like a word with you" references.......

....hmmm, sounds familiar.

I never claimed I don't recycle jokes.

     Two negatives* don't make a right....

    * "I never" +  "I don't"

 

Nothing wrong there, grammatically. It's a rhetorical figure of speech known as a "litote", an understatement that often uses double negatives to deny the opposite of the case.

TV's Frink said:

twooffour said:

Just like in the Matrix, they jump between skyscrapers and get pushed through concrete walls with zero injury - but it's not real, so it doesn't really bother.
Obviously, throgh a real guy at a stone wall, the wall won't break, his spine will

The Matrix isn't real.  The Jedi live in a world where they have more abilities than normal people.  Not the same thing.

Well, we could have this discussion if the Jedis were somehow extraordinarily invulnerable in the movies. I think Obi-Kenobi once fell on a metal plate, and they can generally jump from great heights (which isn't a giant stretch on suspension of disbelief), but that's it.

So they basically have SUPERNATURAL POWERS that make their bodies stronger, give them supernatural and fast reflexes (knowing where a bullet flies without seeing it), and make them able lifting objects.
I'd say the movies stay within these confines pretty well.

But they still inhabit a real world.

Throwing out the "Neo powers in the real world" bullshit from the last two movies, the people in the Matrix only have powers because they have learned the Matrix isn't real and the powers are in their (and everyone else's) minds.

I'm just saying the two situations are different.

Yes, and I'm agreeing.

canofhumdingers said:

 

It becomes a point of just how far can you suspend your disbelief? I would relate it to jumping ability of the Jedi. In ESB & ROTJ, we see that Luke, as he progresses in his jedi training, gains the ability to jump higher, farther, and faster than normal humans. He has become superhuman. But it's not "MILES" farther... It's enough to clearly be beyond the ability of real people, but not so much that it becomes totally unbelievable. Cut to the prequels where we now have Jedi jumping like frogs so far and high that it becomes utterly laughable. They pushed the boundaries too far & it results in destroying the credibility of anything on screen. I submit that the sword fights suffer the same problem.

 

I don't see a real difference.

In ESB Luke does a super high-speed jump straight up 20 ft (and at that speed would have gone considerably higher). In ROTJ he does a standing graceful backflip onto a gantry fifteen feet up and behind him. How is that not "totally unbelievable?"

It's plain from the OT films that these jumps are one of a Jedi's abilities. I don't see any Jedi jumps in the PT that is of any big degree greater than Luke's leaps, unless the objection is really to the SFX tech being used to pull it off.

Ultimately I guess I have to say "to each his own". It's difficult to discuss on a msg board specifics about why the prequel sword fights look so much faker than the OT sword fights, especially to someone who doesn't have experience with real sword weilding martial arts.

Ultimately, despite what most people might think, the OT fighting is actually much more aggresive and threating b/c of the techniquies and posture/stnaces used. A major concept in both Kendo and Fencing is "controlling the center" which, is reall too complicated to explain here. But the essence of it is to keep your sword in lined up with the center of your opponent's body, with the tip pointed directly at their throat. In this way, if they try to move in, they do the work for you by skewering themselves on your sword. Any time you deviate from controlling the center, you open yourself to attack. This is a significant part of the concept of being willing to sacrifice yourself to defeat your opponent in that you MUST give up at least some control of the center in order to strike.

While neither OT or PT fighting is truly realistic, the PT in particular really throws out the idea of maintaining an aggressive, threating posture until you see an opening in which to strike. They are constantly doing things like twirling, spinning, etc. that leaves themselves SUPER wide open for attack. The reason watching it in slow-mo still looks like it "works" is b/c it's all coreographed to MAKE it work....

But, like I said, to each his own. I can willingly suspend my disbelief while watching swordfights in movies & defer to what looks good onscreen, but only to a point. The prequels go far beyond that point for me too many times in their fights. And of course that point is going to different for each person.

And talking about controlling the center, here's a good video of two hachi dan (equivalent of 8th degree black belt, the highest rank in kendo that literally takes over 30 yrs of training to reach) fighting in slowmo. They are each trying to control the center & force the opponent to make an opening until one of them spots an opening and attacks it. If you watch, what creates the opening is the guy on the left dips the tip of his sword & brings it around to the other side of his opponent's sword in an attempt to find an opening (probably to strike the right wrist of the guy on the right). This opens the head of the left guy for attack.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYttYhzZZX8&feature=related

This is another really neat one that shows some of the deflecting techniques including two very effective uses of the hand guard (you never really "block" in kendo so much as just slightly deflect your opponent's blows off target)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMB_8KyW-5E&feature=relmfu

How can I like you when you won't tell me what my previous avatar was? :P

theprequelsrule said:

Bingowings said:

Twirl, twirl, twirl, twirl, twirl.

^ That part was so stupid. The duel had been pretty good (not great) until this point.

LOL YEA

On the one hand, there was some "musical" grace to this bit, which is probably why it was done, and is its sole redeeming quality.

What I probably like most about the prequel fights (and the OT fights to a lesser degree - one of the exceptions being the "shrinking saber" bit from ANH), especially Darth Maul vs. Obi-Kenobi, is their very musical, electrifying rhythm and well-paced "pulse" audible in the sound effects.

Heck, in my fascination for silly musical arrangements, I might write some kind of snare drum transcription of that sequence, LOL.


When they just start twirling their lightsabers after the intense fight, shortly before pushing each other apart, it feels climactic and sort of "liberating".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xP3fI7yn5s#t=175
They sort of speed up, the music does a passing dissonance, and they just start... twirling their lightsabers as if they had built up too much energy and it had to be released, and then... BAM, force match!

It's a bit like this (much better) segment of the Burly Brawl from Reloaded:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6jKffsx4l8#t=200
-3:30

Everything speeds up, speeds up, the music gets faster, the spins in the same direction start getting more frequent and then.... ..... BAM!


Trying to come up with a musical example this reminds me of, he's a drum solo by Buddy Rich:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otKKwKem570#t=135
Lots of back and forth, building of suspense... and then release at 2:20, with the simple "empty" roll taking over.

There might be others.


So there is (arguably) a fun artistic idea behind it, and it (arguably) comes through a bit, but ultimately, it's stupid as hell :DD

canofhumdingers said:

Ultimately I guess I have to say "to each his own". It's difficult to discuss on a msg board specifics about why the prequel sword fights look so much faker than the OT sword fights, especially to someone who doesn't have experience with real sword weilding martial arts.

Ultimately, despite what most people might think, the OT fighting is actually much more aggresive and threating b/c of the techniquies and posture/stnaces used. A major concept in both Kendo and Fencing is "controlling the center" which, is reall too complicated to explain here. But the essence of it is to keep your sword in lined up with the center of your opponent's body, with the tip pointed directly at their throat. In this way, if they try to move in, they do the work for you by skewering themselves on your sword. Any time you deviate from controlling the center, you open yourself to attack. This is a significant part of the concept of being willing to sacrifice yourself to defeat your opponent in that you MUST give up at least some control of the center in order to strike.

While neither OT or PT fighting is truly realistic, the PT in particular really throws out the idea of maintaining an aggressive, threating posture until you see an opening in which to strike. They are constantly doing things like twirling, spinning, etc. that leaves themselves SUPER wide open for attack. The reason watching it in slow-mo still looks like it "works" is b/c it's all coreographed to MAKE it work....

But, like I said, to each his own. I can willingly suspend my disbelief while watching swordfights in movies & defer to what looks good onscreen, but only to a point. The prequels go far beyond that point for me too many times in their fights. And of course that point is going to different for each person.

And talking about controlling the center, here's a good video of two hachi dan (equivalent of 8th degree black belt, the highest rank in kendo that literally takes over 30 yrs of training to reach) fighting in slowmo. They are each trying to control the center & force the opponent to make an opening until one of them spots an opening and attacks it. If you watch, what creates the opening is the guy on the left dips the tip of his sword & brings it around to the other side of his opponent's sword in an attempt to find an opening (probably to strike the right wrist of the guy on the right). This opens the head of the left guy for attack.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYttYhzZZX8&feature=related

This is another really neat one that shows some of the deflecting techniques including two very effective uses of the hand guard (you never really "block" in kendo so much as just slightly deflect your opponent's blows off target)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMB_8KyW-5E&feature=relmfu

Many thanks, that was very informative!


A question about the first clip (I obviously can't apply any experience, but it's things I think to "notice"):
The attack by the right guy starts only after the left guy has brought around his tip to the other side, apparently symmetrical to the previous position (and, from the looks of it, not much farther away from the center, either) - so what advantage does the right guy have that he didn't have before?
He reaches back and then strikes directly at the head, and the left guy doesn't react quickly enough. He could've pulled the sword towards his head, into a horizontal defensive position, but he kinda doesn't.
Couldn't the same have happened, if the right guy reached out right away (without waiting for the tip to move)?


Sorry I guess, this has nothing to do with Star Wars anymore, and I don't have a competent eye for this kind of thing - but I'm kinda curious :D

no problem. Ultimately, it's really hard to say what could've been done or what was happening in their minds at the time. Remember this was in slow motion & these things are happening in fractions of seconds in real life. Each person was constantly making adjustments, changes, & adapting to the situation as it unfolded. These are also very high ranking individuals with decades of experience. I've been practicing kendo for a little over 5 years (with about 2.5 years of olympic style fencing before that) so I'm still considered very much a beginner. I can only analyze these guys so much b/c I have so little experience comparatively.

Also, blocking/deflecting is something that is very complicated, hard to do, and especially to describe. It is poor form to hold your sword up horizontally to block as it is a really weak posture (someone striking with good strength will knock the sword down with the power of their strike & still hit you in the head, your wrists just aren't stong enough to stop a powerful blow). Also, you NEVER block with the sharpend edge (it will ruin the edge & create a weak point where the swod can break more easily. plus if you strike two katanas edge on edge they literally stick together as the edges cut into each other & then must be forcibly pulled apart...). You also don't block directly with the side of the sword, as it can be broken or bent too easily. You either use the side of the sword at an angle to deflect the force of the blow, or use the hard back side of the blade to block/deflect. But the best thing to do is to cut down your opponent before you have to counter his strike...

asterisk8 said:

ToscheStation said:

TV's Frink said:

ToscheStation said:

TV's Frink said:

twooffour said:

It's worthy to note, however, that the Windu vs. Palpatine duel had next to no acrobatics (only one short frame of CG Palps doing some frog flip against a desk), and it was one of the most tense, intense duels in the prequels.

All of Palpatine's terrible facial expressions would like a "word" with you.

 

   lol.

 TV's Frink said:  "The Titanic would like a word with you."

 make that two "would like a word with you" references.......

....hmmm, sounds familiar.

I never claimed I don't recycle jokes.

     Two negatives* don't make a right....

    * "I never" +  "I don't"

 

Nothing wrong there, grammatically. It's a rhetorical figure of speech known as a "litote", an understatement that often uses double negatives to deny the opposite of the case.

  "two negatives don't make a right" =  Joke fail

canofhumdingers said:

no problem. Ultimately, it's really hard to say what could've been done or what was happening in their minds at the time. Remember this was in slow motion & these things are happening in fractions of seconds in real life. Each person was constantly making adjustments, changes, & adapting to the situation as it unfolded. These are also very high ranking individuals with decades of experience. I've been practicing kendo for a little over 5 years (with about 2.5 years of olympic style fencing before that) so I'm still considered very much a beginner. I can only analyze these guys so much b/c I have so little experience comparatively.

Also, blocking/deflecting is something that is very complicated, hard to do, and especially to describe. It is poor form to hold your sword up horizontally to block as it is a really weak posture (someone striking with good strength will knock the sword down with the power of their strike & still hit you in the head, your wrists just aren't stong enough to stop a powerful blow). Also, you NEVER block with the sharpend edge (it will ruin the edge & create a weak point where the swod can break more easily. plus if you strike two katanas edge on edge they literally stick together as the edges cut into each other & then must be forcibly pulled apart...). You also don't block directly with the side of the sword, as it can be broken or bent too easily. You either use the side of the sword at an angle to deflect the force of the blow, or use the hard back side of the blade to block/deflect. But the best thing to do is to cut down your opponent before you have to counter his strike...

Thanks for all that! :)

Seems like that was what the left guy was trying to do, actually, he tried to go for his wrist... but too late :)

theprequelsrule said:

your opponent should always be threatened by your weapon position

theprequelsrule said:

Something like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln94E9AGYTc would have been nice in the prequels.