anothe example of lucas changing things to appeal to a new generation lightsaber dueling styles of OT vs PT — Page 4

Hi,again. I wanted to add a few things,if you don't mind? I can put it succinctly...imo and this is just me,but Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings Trilogy became to me what the PT was supposed to become. Granted it had a wonderful story already out there,but to manage such a large and grand story and put it on screen with so many truelly fleshed out characters brought to life by an array of such talented actors and actresses was a real feat. I really liked and cared for them,even the cgi ones. Peter delivered not only SPFX of epic quality,he made films that when I watch them over again,I don't just skip over to the big battles or action,like I tend to do with the PT...I watch them because I want to follow the characters. I can't say that for the PT. Lucas had alot of advantages,including many great performers,top of the line production people,state of the art FX,etc...and even though alot of the actors from the OT would say comments about the dialogue they spoke I still felt real emotions from them. I mean Liam Neeson,Ewan McGregor,Natalie Portman,Ian MacDiarmid,Christopher Lee,even Hadyn C (who I've seen do some good work)...and the only character who brought real life to me was a CGI called Yoda! and Frank Oz. What an array of talent and they couldn't breathe life into the characters, with exception of Mr.Mcdiarmid who's character gets a chance to really grow. I really loved his nuance and his characters arc. To this day I think his performance in ROTJ was one of the few times that real evil was brought out from an actor. That's why we cheered...yes ,cheered when Anakin/Vader lifted him up and threw him to his death. How often do you hear a cheer from audiences today? To make this long story short,George should have NOT directed,this is an example of Style over Substance...even though this was started about the Lightsaber dueling,which is one of the highlights of the newer films ,I have just one example from ROTS...the opening space battle,a prime example of sometimes Less is More...After 20 yrs I still fill the space battle from ROTJ was sooo much better than the Battle over Coruscant. I couldn't take it all in! there was so much going on I couldn't appreciate it....whereas in ROTJ that battle had an ellegance and awe,that even with all the supercomputers and CGI wizards of today could not replicate.

xhonzi said:

Alright, is it just me, or did hal have a good point even if he sort of botched the delivery?

The PT change in lightsabre style was not story motivated and it remains as one of the inconsistencies between the trilogies that prevents them from being a cohesive whole.  He probably did it because he thought it would 'look cool' and the pervasiveness of Asian culture in the West led him to think that he had to have the Jedi be superninjas just so they could be competitive with the other superninjas in recent pop culture.

Maybe you still don't agree with that.  I do.  But isn't that what he was trying to say?

I'm not entirely sure I agree but there's absolutely no doubt Sam Jackson was given a purple one because he wanted it...so how much could the saber colors mean to the story in Lucas' mind?

Carp.  Speed read fail.

Well, that's something that doesn't really bother me about the prequels.  All we see in the OT is an old man, a newbie, and a machine.  Doesn't it at least sort of make sense to have different styles, even if that wasn't the real reason it was done?

xhonzi said:

TV's Frink said:

Carp.  Speed read fail.

Well, that's something that doesn't really bother me about the prequels.  All we see in the OT is an old man, a newbie, and a machine.  Doesn't it at least sort of make sense to have different styles, even if that wasn't the real reason it was done?

No, this argument stinks to high heaven.

As was already said in this thread, how much older is Christopher Lee than Obi-Wan?  How much more robotic is Grevious than Vader?  How much more newb is *any lightsabre kid that we see twirling* than RotJ Luke?

I should have been clearer.  The concept doesn't bother me.  The execution is something else - especially your Christopher Lee point.  That decision was just stupid.

You could make the argument that Grevious was constructed (sort of) to be able to fight, while Vader was constructed to keep Anakin alive.  But I'm not sure I'd make that argument.

And you'll have to forgive me for "already said in this thread" moments.  I don't read hal posts very closely, if at all.

I don't read Bingo either.

;-)

Well...other than the suspicion that we're all Bingo...I was not aware this was even considered.

Is this another thing from earlier in the thread?

xhonzi said:

Alright, is it just me, or did hal have a good point even if he sort of botched the delivery?

... ... He probably did it because he thought it would 'look cool' and the pervasiveness of Asian culture in the West led him to think that he had to have the Jedi be superninjas just so they could be competitive with the other superninjas in recent pop culture... ...

There's this weird assumption inherent in that argument that the OT duels weren't meant to 'look cool.' They clearly are.

Luke and Obi both do the same "spin around for no reason and then barely block Vader's saber" move. Luke does a crazy backwards flip onto a bridge in ROTJ. Vader pwns Luke with ONE HAND during the start of the fight in ESB just to be badass.

And I still stand that I don't see any clear EAST vs. WEST difference in the sword styles of the trilogy as a whole. Moving quickly or jumping high doesn't make you Asian.

TV's Frink said:

It's not a good sign if you are taking haljordan's side in an argument with TheBoost.

Where did I take haljordan's side, exactly?

Well, you took the Anti-Boost side in a Boost/hal argument...

I did nothing of the sort. If I took any side, which it isn't at all obvious I did, I took the anti-ad hominem side. I actually agree with parts of both sides of the argument.

I'm saying that ad hominem was justified in that case.  Drastic measures for drastic members.

For the most part, I try to focus on the content rather than the person. hal's delivery left something to be desired, but I agree with the basic premise that the saber fights in the PT are more acrobatic in part to appeal to a younger generation accustomed to heavily-choreographed dance-like fight sequences and "wire fu"-style acrobatics. I also agree with TheBoost that there is more to it than just that, and as is often done with Star Wars, you can point to enough in-universe reasons for the change to satisfy most fans.

Oh, that.  That was hours ago.  I barely remember my name today.

lordsidi said:

That's why we cheered...yes ,cheered when Anakin/Vader lifted him up and threw him to his death. How often do you hear a cheer from audiences today?

Well, I saw TPM 5 times, and everytime Darth Maul died, the audience clapped.
Darth Maul was cool, though.

Same with the Uber Uruk from LOTR1 - although the clapping was preceded by laughter ;)

xhonzi said:

TV's Frink said:

Carp.  Speed read fail.

Well, that's something that doesn't really bother me about the prequels.  All we see in the OT is an old man, a newbie, and a machine.  Doesn't it at least sort of make sense to have different styles, even if that wasn't the real reason it was done?

No, this argument stinks to high heaven.

As was already said in this thread, how much older is Christopher Lee than Obi-Wan?  How much more robotic is Grevious than Vader?  How much more newb is *any lightsabre kid that we see twirling* than RotJ Luke?

I must say, this whole issue of speedier fighting styles is probably one of the least thing that "bothers" me about the prequels, if at all.

Why? Because we all know, if the characters and the movies were good, no one would've minded some fast twirling moves. It's only because those things fell so flat, that everyone starts noticing how the fast moves compensate for characters.
Had the OT had hack plot and characters exchanging clichéd hammy lines during the duels, everyone would've laughed the awkward slow fencing out of the cinema. Certainly ANH.


As for the "technicalities", I guess I don't see a problem, either. I agree it was probably more of an excuse to have speedy cool battles than anything else, but it kinda works.

Ben was out of practice, Dooku in the middle of his thing. He also didn't look as old as Ben.
Vader vs. Grievous is the same as C-3PO vs. battle droids. Will I really bring C's clumsiness to "debunk" cool fighting robots set in an earlier time? Nah. Vader still had his torso, or it was worse technology, who cares.

Luke wasn't as properly trained as the kids at the Temple, in fact where did we ever see him training with a lightsaber? So I don't care about that.


It's worthy to note, however, that the Windu vs. Palpatine duel had next to no acrobatics (only one short frame of CG Palps doing some frog flip against a desk), and it was one of the most tense, intense duels in the prequels.

twooffour said:

It's worthy to note, however, that the Windu vs. Palpatine duel had next to no acrobatics (only one short frame of CG Palps doing some frog flip against a desk), and it was one of the most tense, intense duels in the prequels.

All of Palpatine's terrible facial expressions would like a "word" with you.

True if the characters, the story, the effects, the direction (aka the rest of the cinematic qualities of the films) were up to scratch the bizarre disco dance fighting would be a quibble (a quibble amplified by the brilliance of the rest of the film but still a quibble).

But when everything else is a mess and you can't even enjoy a compelling sword fight it's worse than annoying.

It's depressing.

TV's Frink said:

twooffour said:

It's worthy to note, however, that the Windu vs. Palpatine duel had next to no acrobatics (only one short frame of CG Palps doing some frog flip against a desk), and it was one of the most tense, intense duels in the prequels.

All of Palpatine's terrible facial expressions would like a "word" with you.

Ironically, I had this very same exchange at the RLM boards, where I brought up how I liked the duel, and then someone increduously posted a series of silly facial expressions from both actors :D

My opinion is that they don't look terrible or silly when in the movie - you could say that about Palpatine, but he looks so damn evil and threatening at the same time, that it kinda stops mattering :)

Bingowings said:

True if the characters, the story, the effects, the direction (aka the rest of the cinematic qualities of the films) were up to scratch the bizarre disco dance fighting would be a quibble (a quibble amplified by the brilliance of the rest of the film but still a quibble).

But when everything else is a mess and you can't even enjoy a compelling sword fight it's worse than annoying.

It's depressing.

I think what I disliked the most were some of the truly lamer choreographed parts, like the 2-on-1 beginning in ROTS, where it was obvious that the characters weren't even trying.

There were like at least 2-3 major opportunities for both Anakin, and then Obi-Wan, to cut Dooku while he was flipping around, all in a matter of a few seconds... they were just kinda swinging around looking bored and disengaged. That sucked.

Obi-Wan vs. Anakin, as well as most of Darth Maul (especially the two final parts) were quite good, I believe.