logo Sign In

anothe example of lucas changing things to appeal to a new generation lightsaber dueling styles of OT vs PT — Page 3

Author
Time

TV frink and Alex  are the only ones who need  warnings  or flat out banned.  they   behave childish and  throw personal insults and why?  because I missspell words or  because I  say something they do not like?   how about  showing some maturity  and  respond to my points  and stop being insulting   to every post I make because you dislike what I have to say.

 

and I agree with  all the points made here about the  jedi masters  being the wise sage who  are   retired jedi knights who are the trainers now.  even gary kurtz  said having yoda  saber duel ruins his character.  not to mention the whole   medichorlin thing.   it takes away the spirtual aspect of the force.   now instead of saying  "may the force be with you"  you  should say  "may the midicholrins in your blood be with you.

 

and  on the  whole jedi knight jedi master  thing.  here is another  thing that points to lucas  pathetic  writing. at the  start of episode 1  the opening crawl  says   TWO JEDI KNIGHTS  are dispatched  to handle the trade  dispute  and then only at the end is obi wan awarded  the title of JEDI KNIGHT.

 

and dont you  find it odd generial  grivious  caughs  considering he has NO LUNGS!

Author
Time
 (Edited)

The Clone Wars shorts explain that. Maybe not well, but they do.

A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em

Author
Time

haljordan28 said:

here is another  thing that points to lucas  pathetic  writing. at the  start of episode 1  the opening crawl  says   TWO JEDI KNIGHTS  are dispatched  to handle the trade  dispute  and then only at the end is obi wan awarded  the title of JEDI KNIGHT.

 

and dont you  find it odd generial  grivious  caughs  considering he has NO LUNGS!

Now you're inventing nits to pick.

I don't know of any explanation officially from LucasFilm, but with a mere second and a half of thought, based only on WHAT IS IN THE FILMS, I have  answers to both.

  • Perhaps a Padawan learner IS a Jedi Knight, in the same way a kid with a learner's permit to drive IS a driver. Obi is also called a Jedi knight by the girl 3PO at the start of TPM. Being a Padawan is the preliminary starting rank of Jedi Knight, not as YOU assume, a separate and lower rank with a hard and clear distinction.

    OR
  • Perhaps it's normal to refer to active members of the Jedi Order as Jedi Knights in general, regardless of internal distinctions.


Regarding the General

  • I'm no expert in fictional xeno-biology, nor in hypothetical cybernetics (perhaps you are?), but given that Grievous has at least a head and a bag of organs I can at guess that he breaths to oxygenate these living tissues. So how about the cough is caused by some imperfection in wherever the organic breathing parts meet the mechanical parts. Or he has a cold.

 

Both of your complaints are example of YOU as a fan making up rules and then complaining that the movie doesn't follow it, rather than actually watching the movie.

Author
Time

well in the clone wars cartoon which takes place before episode 3 anakin is called a JEDI MASTER.  so  it never  ends.  more and more BS  thanks to poor Lucas.

 

here are some other great complaints which I happen to agree with..

 

"I don't understand what happened to Obi-Wan in the battle sequence. Dooku throws Obi-Wan aside, nearly breaking his back against a wall, and then he uses the Force to clearly crush Obi-Wan's legs under a giant walkway. You see Obi-Wan's body slide forward as his lower half gets mangled under the crushing weight of the platform. I assumed that both of his legs were completely crushed. However, after the duel, Anakin simply removes Obi-Wan without any trouble and puts him on his back. Obi-Wan does not spend the rest of the movie in a wheelhover chair as expected, but rather has suffered no damage at all to his legs and regains consciousness just seconds before swinging out an elevator door and getting up to run around again."

 

"Georgie Boy just couldn't help himself. He had to insert the Millennium Falcon into Revenge of the Sith. Perhaps his lament that a five-year-old Han Solo may have been unnecessary was only overcome by this move. I can imagine him wrestling with his emotions, trying to fight it. His hands trembling as he reaches for his pen and finally gives in and writes it into the script. Afterwards, he must have gasped, tossed his pen aside and grinned his needle-toothed grin.

Fanboys will undoubtedly argue that it was not the Falcon but merely another Corellian freighter that resembled it. I refuse to believe that that is the case after spending the past six years seeing a baby Greedo, Chewbacca, the Tantive IV, Death Star plans and a ten year old Boba Fett. The only thing that surprises me is that the Millennium Falcon does not sweep across the foreground followed by a scene where a five-year-old Lando Calrissian loses the ship to a five-year-old Solo in a game of sabaac."

"The Jedi have no shortage of chances to give everyone's favorite miscreant, Anakin Skywalker, the ability to destroy the galaxy. Anakin is clearly bad news. He has rage-inspired outbursts. He doesn't seem to appreciate the Jedi dress code and insists on wearing dark black. He loves to scowl. He shouts. He is impatient. He has trouble taking and accepting orders. He occasionally flips out and kills entire groups of people. So why is it that the Jedi continually give him more responsibilities?

Mace Windu: Master Yoda, we suspect the Sith Lord is someone high up in government. Someone very close to Palpatine.

Yoda: Close to Palpatine he is. With Palpatine Skywalker must stay. Learn of the Sith Lord he will.

Mace Windu: Good idea, Master Yoda. We will let Skywalker hang out in the midst of the Sith Lord. Our shakiest, most powerful, most unstable Jedi will do just fine in this assignment.

Yoda: A stroke of brilliance this Council has made."

 

 

Once again it has happened. In keeping with the true spirit of Star Wars, Lucas has decided to take the bad moves of the past and not smooth them over, but rather, highlight and elaborate on them in the new movies. One of the foulest moments of Return of the Jedi was when Chewbacca swung onto the AT-ST and let out his famous Tarzan yell. Some (myself included) feel that having Chewbacca yell in the manner of Tarzan, a character from Earth literature and film, was a rather poor move. Lucas, however, uses his own judgment. In his eyes, this moment was clearly an excellent move, a brilliant thing to have happen in a galaxy far, far away! So, in Revenge of the Sith, we are treated to what we can only assume is a traditional Wookiee war cry. And what's more, is that it's double the fun! What's the only thing better than a Wookiee swinging from a rope and yelling like Tarzan? Why, of course, two Wookiees swinging from a rope and yelling like Tarzan."

"Don't you wonder why the Jedi Council won't make you a Master?" "They don't trust you." "I would doubt the Council's judgment if they didn't choose you for this mission."

Why is Anakin such an idiot? How does he not see that he is being manipulated? It's as if Palpatine is reciting from The Beginner's Guide to Manipulating an Idiot.

"You must kill all the Jedi in the temple and then kill everyone in the Mustafar system. Then you will be powerful enough in the dark side to save Padme."

"Okay, do you think that will work?"

"Oh, yes, Anakin. Kill all the Jedi, especially the babies and the children, and you will be able to save Padme's life."

"Wow, it's so simple. Thanks Palps!"

*High Five*

Palpatine actually says that he must kill all the Jedi in the temple, that only then will he be strong enough with the Force to save Padme. Anakin sees no problem with this. It seems to naturally follow that he will gain the power to save his wife by killing all his friends.

Then, and this is what should really burn Anakin up, Palpatine informs Anakin that after he does this they will be able to figure out how this whole stopping people from dying thing actually works.Admiting he does not even know how"

Mace Windu decides, after getting information from Anakin, that he is going to confront and arrest Chancellor Palpatine. He picks as his helpers what would appear to be three of the shabbiest Jedi he could find.

It's apparent that the intent of this scene was to show how powerful Sidious is. Unfortunately, it fails for two reasons. 1.) We haven't really seen these Jedi do anything worthy of note. Aside from Kit Fisto deflecting blaster fire from battle droids in the previous movie (which, if these movies are any indicator, it seems anyone holding a lightsaber is able to do), we haven't seen him do anything outside of the cartoon series to show that he is even a subpar Jedi. Given our lack of knowledge about the inept Jedi "Masters" that Palpatine faces, he might as well be striking down his cleaning lady. 2.) The Jedi die so quickly, by such weak attacks, that they just look like a collection of fools.

If they'd already been shown as skilled swordsmen, then it would be quite shocking that Palpatine dispatched them so easily. Unfortunately, we don't know them from a hole in the wall, so Palpatine's seemingly harmless attacks make them look like unskilled circus performers."

 

"Palpatine  force frying himself..However, the real question is this: if Mace Windu can deflect Palpatine's Force lightning, then why does Palpatine continue to blast it in his direction and subsequently fry his own face? Is it for effect? Does he want to look more evil? Or does he want to look more like an alien from Babylon 5?"

 

"Anakin, being a Grade A doofus, decides that he must save Palpatine from the clutches of the vile Jedi MACE WINDU! So, he chops off Windu's hand and has Palpatine blast him to death with some more of that sweet, sweet Force lightning. He does this for two reasons: 1) He wishes to have Palpatine stand trial and 2) He wants to learn the secrets of keeping people alive so that Padme won't die. However, reason number one goes out the window (along with Mace Windu) as soon as he chops of Mace's hand. In the course of two minutes, Anakin has gone from the Jedi who wants to turn in Palpatine and bring him to trial, to the Jedi who is surrendering to Palpatine, becoming his apprentice and slaughtering a room full of children. I feel sorry for anyone who chose that two-minute stretch to use the rest room."

The first six hours of the prequel trilogy makes one thing perfectly clear: the Jedi can deflect an infinite amount of blaster fire with their lightsabers without taking so much as a single hit. It's interesting that the Jedi have the ability to flip and spin around, deflecting blaster fire from 360 degrees while destroying battle droids. However, it seems to take no more than four clone troopers shooting at them from the same direction to kill a Jedi It also doesn't help that the Jedi's ability to read emotions or sense any form of danger seems to not exist in the prequels. It must be the "shroud of the dark side," right?"

The way Obi-Wan describes Vader's treachery to Luke makes it sound like it was quite a task indeed. What Obi-Wan does not explain is that there was very little hunting involved. What Vader actually did was show up and kill everyone. "It was quite easy, really," Obi-Wan might have explained. "It only really took Vader about twenty minutes. But what a hunt it was!""

To say that Chewbacca has a useless part in Revenge of the Sith would be putting it lightly. Aside from having Yoda crawl all over him like he was some sort of jungle gym, he seems to serve absolutely no purpose in the administrative or military actions on Kashyyyk. Presumably, the only purpose he serves is to give fanboys tingles up their spines. And in case you are an alien, from another planet, that was born yesterday, and is really, really, tremendously out of touch with the world around you, Yoda conveniently says, "Goodbye... Chew... bacc... a." This is followed with a six-minute still of Chewbacca's big Wookiee head as he howls for the camera.

Yoda decides that he and Obi-Wan must split up, because any good plan usually begins with splitting up. Yoda will take care of Palpatine, and Obi-Wan will kill Anakin. Obi-Wan disagrees with this plan, because he doesn't think he can kill Anakin, being that they are so close. It is unclear why, seeing that Anakin is so far away, they don't both attack Palpatine together, then go for Anakin together as well. It's especially puzzling since every single battle the Jedi have had with the Sith have been two-on-one affairs: Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan versus Darth Maul, Obi-Wan and Anakin versus Count Dooku, Obi-Wan and Anakin versus Count Dooku again. I worry about the collective wisdom of Obi-Wan and Yoda if they choose now to finally level the playing field and have a fair one-on-one fight.

 

The Properties of Lava (Sweat? Battle + Lava = No sweat)
This battle ends up with Anakin and Obi-Wan riding hover-platforms mere feet over a lava flow. Now, I'm all for fantastic fantasy elements in movies (particularly Star Wars movies), but suspending disbelief at this point is beyond difficult. Given that lava is generally around 2000 degrees Fahrenheit (1093 degrees Celsius), I find it difficult to believe that Anakin and Obi-Wan not only have no problems battling without bursting into flames, but that they don't even break a sweat! You would think that the stress and exertion of combat alone would cause at least a few beads of sweat to form on their brows. Of course, the mysteries of the Force always allow for apologist excuses in any case. They were most likely using the secret Force climate-control technique to keep cool.

Yoda lets Obi-Wan know that he has training for Obi-Wan while he's in solitude on Tatooine. Yoda has heard word from Qui-Gon Jinn and Qui-Gon has apparently "learned the path to immortality." This is, of course, an attempt to explain why everyone's favorite Jedi can always reappear as a Jedi apparition after their death.

The script and the novel both went into greater detail about how Qui-Gon Jinn communicated to Yoda and explained that he had learned a neat little trick about how to become "one with the Force" after death. It is a little difficult to swallow since Qui-Gon learned the secret of immortality after he died. But, I guess the Force midi-chlorians move in mysterious ways.

Another interesting question raised by this plot element is how Darth Vader seems to learn the same skill. Was he Force-eavesdropping on Obi-Wan while he communed with Qui-Gon on Tatooine? Did the Emperor teach him this trick? If so, why didn't the Emperor crash the party that the dead Obi-Wan, Yoda and Anakin had on Endor at the end of Return of the Jedi? Perhaps we will see the Emperor in the newer edition of Return of the Jedi when the six-film DVD set is released. I would fully expect a climax of 20 additional minutes where the three dead Jedi fight the dead Emperor using lightsabers. How will it turn out? We'll have to wait and see."

 

 

 

Author
Time
 (Edited)

haljordan28 said:

well in the clone wars cartoon which takes place before episode 3 anakin is called a JEDI MASTER.  so  it never  ends.  more and more BS  thanks to poor Lucas.

For someone who hates the JUNKQUELS with such passion, I find it odd that you readily quote from cartoons based on them.

 

here are some other great complaints which I happen to agree with..

Copy/Paste five year old posts from around the internet. Definitely the way to put all of us "PT Lovers" in our place.

Are you familiar with the term "Goal Post Moving?" You started with a fairly weak argument about Fencing v.s "Asian" Swordfighting, and are now just throwing random posts (by other people) about what the PT is bad.

Author
Time

I watch the clone wars cartoon at times.  it is miles    ahead of the PT films   as far as writing goes.  at least anakin  acts like a noble jedi  and doesn't  cry and whine like a little baby.  a shame he did not behave that way in the films

Author
Time

haljordan28 said:

I watch the clone wars cartoon at times.  it is miles    ahead of the PT films   as far as writing goes.  at least anakin  acts like a noble jedi  and doesn't  cry and whine like a little baby.  a shame he did not behave that way in the films

"Clone Wars" is just as much full of Lucas's lies, inconsistencies, and dramatically changed style as the PT.

So your furious indignation has nothing to do with Lucas's lies and bullshit, or changing styles to appeal to the new      generation. It just has to do with whether you personally enjoy a particular show or not?

You're clearly a lad man of great character.

Author
Time

TheBoost said:

haljordan28 said:

I watch the clone wars cartoon at times.  it is miles    ahead of the PT films   as far as writing goes.  at least anakin  acts like a noble jedi  and doesn't  cry and whine like a little baby.  a shame he did not behave that way in the films

"Clone Wars" is just as much full of Lucas's lies, inconsistencies, and dramatically changed style as the PT.

So your furious indignation has nothing to do with Lucas's lies and bullshit, or changing styles to appeal to the new      generation. It just has to do with whether you personally enjoy a particular show or not?

You're clearly a lad man of great character.

I did not say the clone wars was GOOD. I said i watch it at times and  said its better than the PT films. I base that one anakins character.  he actually behaves like he has some sense and some honor and some dignity.  He does not cry and whine like a little  baby every other scene.

Author
Time

HAL, stop misquoting the Plinkett reviews. 50% of the carp you have been saying has been said thousands of times, not just on this site. The other 50% of what you have said, I couldn't understand. Given your reputation for beating a dead horse, I didn't need to. 

Clearly, I doubt you hate the prequels as much as you say you do, otherwise you would have an original opinion on the subject. 

I think you just hate the movies, because a lot of us do. I really couldn't give a big steaming pile of shaving cream about them. They don't anger me, like they do everyone else. George forcing them down our throats does. Then the fact that he acts like the Original Trilogy was inferior, and we shouldn't get to see it, because it is the one we actually like.

Hell, you can't even find decent memorabilia any more, without sifting through loads of prequel garbage.

 

"The other versions will disappear. Even the 35 million tapes of Star Wars out there won’t last more than 30 or 40 years. A hundred years from now, the only version of the movie that anyone will remember will be the DVD version [of the Special Edition], and you’ll be able to project it on a 20’ by 40’ screen with perfect quality. I think it’s the director’s prerogative, not the studio’s to go back and reinvent a movie." - George Lucas

<span> </span>

Author
Time

Ziggy Stardust said:

I sure hope he doesn't come back...

Scary shit. I thought that guy was back with a new thread. I even forgot I had replied in this.

Author
Time

Ziggy Stardust said:

I sure hope he doesn't come back...

Then don't bump his threads.

Author
Time

May I just throw in, unless I've missed it:

Nick Gillard was the main choreographer of the prequels. Not sure about Asians, but he seems to have been the number one guy there. He's British.

Author
Time

TV's Frink said:

Ziggy Stardust said:

I sure hope he doesn't come back...

Then don't bump his threads.

But-

You told me to! (sorta) ;P

Author
Time

With regard to the swordfighting clips here, can I ask those with some knowledge a question: could it be that, basically, the fights in movies go on for longer without injury because... it's an idealized world and everyone there is simply MILES BETTER than most, or anyone, in real life?

They can actually deflect all the fast moves and tricks without getting injured... the guys in the first clip can't last a second because, ultimately, they couldn't foresee or react to at least one move.

Author
Time

Haljordan28 has to come back! He'd be the matter to kenkraly's antimatter!

Author
Time

haljordan28...wow,bud. You have way to much time on your hands! Your disection of the PT and utter hate and contempt of DARTH LUCAS has become,it seems quite an obsession! I'm a fan from '77 to this day,as well. I too wanted much more from the PT. It's a bit sad cause I know a LOT of terrific people worked their asses off to make them. I won't get into specifics about each movie,but in my opinion was doomed to fail no matter what. The expectations from us" OT fan/nutjobs" was too overwhelming. We'd watched and watched the originals,ad nauseum. We wanted,well something else. I too remember the documentary where he said "too many film makers rely to heavily on special effects and not enough on the story,which is what makes the movie great", but look at what he was facing...legions of fans expecting the second coming! All the movies made after ROTJ were FULL of newer and faster SPFX. The new movie goer wanted more and MORE CGI. More intense action,more realistic experiences. Concerning the topic of this discussion "lightsaber fights"I always thought the fights in the OT were less,well acrobatic is because the duels themselves were'nt the major thing going on,it was the duel between the characters themselves that was more important....that's why to this day I feel they are perfect just as they are,whereas the duels in the PT were more about showing the power of the duelists,...Darth Maul was trained specifically to best his opponents...his lightsaber fighting WAS his character. The Jedi at that time were excellent duelists,but they had'nt had to fight another foe like this sithlord before and it was only Maul's overconfidence that killed him.

Skipping to ROTS, well Grievous was trained by Dooku,however he was NOT a Jedi or Sith....even with four lightsabers he could not best a Jedi with the strength of Obi Wan....Sidious was a volcano waiting to erupt! His mastery of the darkside and skill with his weapon was too much for the unsuspecting group of jedi. He utilized his mindpowers as well as his saberskills to jump into the fray and before they knew it dispatched two before they knew what hit them. It did'nt diminish how strong the Jedi masters were,but Sidious's time had come and he was way to strong. Ok,Ok...i'm getting longwinded and anyone with love and devotion for any of these films is great to me....but Lucas isn't the devil, as the song goes,"He tried his best....but his best wasn't good enough"...for some anyway.  May the force be with all you guys and gals!

Author
Time

lordsidi said:

haljordan28...wow,bud. You have way to much time on your hands!

Hasn't been on since March...maybe he's found better ways to spend his time.

Author
Time

The it was doomed to fail because of the anticipation argument would only work if A) the films were really good and B) if they flopped at the box office.

The films were genuinely pants and they made and continue to make tons of cash.

Author
Time

Bingowings said:

The it was doomed to fail because of the anticipation argument would only work if A) the films were really good and B) if they flopped at the box office.

The films were genuinely pants and they made and continue to make tons of cash.

This.

The pressure to have awesome fast effects and fights worthy of the Second Coming, is no excuse for making the story so incoherent, and the characters so bland and painful.
I don't think anyone would really bitch about this or that action scene being over-the-top, or unnecessary to the plot, if the basics - a well-structured storyline and interesting, well-acted and genuine characters - were right.

Look at the Matrix - did anyone bitch about the Neo-Smith duel being pointless, because Neo should've known that he can respawn, and should be running for his ass?
No, because that movie had good, believable characters and a captivating protagonist arc that made the viewer feel with the main character. So maybe he was a bit over-confident? Who cares, this is AWESOME!

Now skip to Reloaded - everyone starts bitching about how pointless it was for Neo to fight 50 CGI Smiths and then fly off.
Why? Because Neo was basically just a cardboard cutout the whole movie, it was boring (even if stylish) and the pointlessness of the scene was the more obvious.
[Even though it wasn't completely pointless, as it's basically Neo facing a new, worthy enemy, and learning that he can't beat this one at the end.]


So if Lucas wanted to pander to the fanboys screaming for effects and lightsabers, but not the part of his audience that appreciated Star Wars for being the good movies they were, I'm afraid it IS his fault.

:)

Author
Time

Ooooohhh!!! So THAT'S the Haljordan that everyone (well. Frink) is talking about.

<span style=“font-weight: bold;”>The Most Handsomest Guy on OT.com</span>

Author
Time

He'll be in the Classic LOL Archive soon enough...

Author
Time

TheBoost said:

Sheesh. Qui-Gon must use some good moisturizer.

Maybe Owen's and Beru's moisture farm is actually a beauty farm that uses mainly moisturizer?

Sorry for the belated (and bad) joke...

Author
Time
 (Edited)

TheBoost said:

You have seen the movie, right?

 

Did you buy your "HAN SHOT FIRST" t-shirt one size to small, because it's apparently restricting blood flow to your brain.

 

This weakens your reputation as an expert in this field somewhat.

 

I'm guessing from your thought processes and typing that you're in junior high, so I've been a fan for about two decades longer than you. Show some respect junior.

 

There are many valid reasons to dislike the prequels. It's just that yours are dumb.

What a delightful number of ad hominem personal attacks!

Author
Time

It's not a good sign if you are taking haljordan's side in an argument with TheBoost.