When Remakes are a Bad Idea — Page 10

Bingowings said:

Writing twoofour's posts has given me back the wrists I had when I was teen.

I was using a sock then too as I recall.

Hahaha! Nice.

That was the most (intentionally) funny post I have read in quite a while.

twooffour said:

So how about you don't claim that about Jordan, but about some noob kid in the neighborhouse... it'll still be an opinion, but what chance would it stand at being any true?

I'm pretty sure you could make a very solid CASE for Jordan, though.

It is funny you used the neighborhood kid example, because I almost used that as my subjective opinion example, but figured the cat worked better (since the kid could potentially turn out to be the best ever, but "cutest cat" is something that can't be quantified).

But yeah, statistics and records exist to act as a basis for an opinion about Micheal Jordan being "the best ever". But my opinion about the neighborhood boy being potentially the best ever would be purely my subjective view based on my own thought from watching him play with other kids who probably aren't that good. If the neighborhood kid had beaten Micheal Jordan during his prime in a one-on-one match, then now I would have something objective to base my opinion on.

In that sense, if I take something that passes for an opinion, not fact, and say "that's false"... am I automatically wrong for being that way?
Or would you first have to show that that "opinion" was, either a subjective opinion, or actually pretty damn well supported in contrary to what I'm saying? Or if not pretty damn well, at least makes enough sense not to be indisputably "false"?

You'd have to decide that case by case. If I say, "This has got to be the most beautiful sunset I have ever seen!" and you respond with, "Pfft, I've seen better." Our contrary opinions have just bumped heads. I could look at you incredulously and say, "Yeah right, better than this?" And then proceed to tell you all the reasons why I think it is the most beautiful one I have ever seen, and you could respond with all the reasons it pails in comparison to other sunsets you've witness. But how silly and vain of an argument would that be? We are clearly dealing with subjective data, the beauty of a sunset can't be quantifiable, because it is in the eye of the beholder.

If we're dealing with something that could potentially be proven, but can't, then it'd be a bit more reasonable to debate it, but we'd probably just still be bumping the heads of our opinions together. If I say Wilt Champerlain is the best basketball player ever, and doubleKO says Micheal Jordan was the best ever, we could argue this out, do research, and come up with stats, but ultimately the data doesn't exist to prove it either way. Records were kept differently back when Wilt played to the time Jordan played, so it is hard to measure the two against each other fairly and with certainty. So it remains an opinion on both of out parts, but each of our opinions are based on facts (they were both extremely good players) as well as subjective feelings (my affinity for Wilt against KO's affinity for Micheal). A debate about this can be fun, enjoyable, and even rewarding, but as far as determining anything, it is as fruitless as the sunset debate.

If none of that is the case, I honestly don't see why I can't do that, and then let the other one defend their opinion if they can.

You can. I think what was getting people upset was the abrasive way you'd do it, with remarks such as, "Well, its official now, accept it" etc. 

People like to discuss stupid relatively meaningless shit when they are bored, like how often is the second sequel to anything ever any good, or bounce around thoughts and theories like under what circumstances a remake could/should be justified or not. You can't really tack any of this stuff down to solid fact. The quality of movies is hard to quantify. One movie may be amazing to one person, well acted and fantastically written and crafted, but to another person it could be boring as hell and therefore a bad movie. Is one of them wrong? Maybe a little. I think you can find writing and acting and production that is objectively bad or objectively decent, but you'll still find people who find it subjectively good or perhaps even very good. I may have loved every remake I have seen, and so think they are a great idea; or I may have hated every remake I have seen, and so think they are a horrible idea. Who can prove me objectively wrong either way?

CP3S said:

Who can prove me objectively wrong either way?

twooffour.  That dude can "prove" ANYTHING.

But my opinion about the neighborhood boy being potentially the best ever would be purely my subjective view based on my own thought from watching him play with other kids who probably aren't that good. If the neighborhood kid had beaten Micheal Jordan during his prime in a one-on-one match, then now I would have something objective to base my opinion on

I meant actually, not potentially. And obviously, he can't have beaten Mike or my point is meaningless :D

Yea, it's some amateur kid who's really bad, but then some jackass fanboy comes up and says he's the best ever, and Michael Jordan is a hack.

So that'd be a pretty fucking stupid "opinion", wouldn't it?

You'd have to decide that case by case. If I say, "This has got to be the most beautiful sunset I have ever seen!" and you respond with, "Pfft, I've seen better." Our contrary opinions have just bumped heads. I could look at you incredulously and say, "Yeah right, better than this?" And then proceed to tell you all the reasons why I think it is the most beautiful one I have ever seen, and you could respond with all the reasons it pails in comparison to other sunsets you've witness. But how silly and vain of an argument would that be? We are clearly dealing with subjective data, the beauty of a sunset can't be quantifiable, because it is in the eye of the beholder.

 

If we're dealing with something that could potentially be proven, but can't, then it'd be a bit more reasonable to debate it, but we'd probably just still be bumping the heads of our opinions together. If I say Wilt Champerlain is the best basketball player ever, and doubleKO says Micheal Jordan was the best ever, we could argue this out, do research, and come up with stats, but ultimately the data doesn't exist to prove it either way. Records were kept differently back when Wilt played to the time Jordan played, so it is hard to measure the two against each other fairly and with certainty. So it remains an opinion on both of out parts, but each of our opinions are based on facts (they were both extremely good players) as well as subjective feelings (my affinity for Wilt against KO's affinity for Micheal). A debate about this can be fun, enjoyable, and even rewarding, but as far as determining anything, it is as fruitless as the sunset debate.

QFT.

I'd say both kinds of arguments can be fruitful, but the first example is pure sentiment, while the other has things like facts, facts in relation to values (what makes a better player?), facts that are difficult to quantify, but also potential biases that are clearly wrong, and observations that are clearly correct.

So if you establish a virtue in relation to which, say, the characters in the prequels fall short, I think you could reasonably argue that they are actually pretty bad (in comparison to, say, Men in Black).
But if someone realizes all of the features that makes them bad, but likes them for some reason, then that's where you've reached the point where you've been bumping heads.

I think that's it really, there's a lot that can evade your attention, perception and reasoning, but at some point you reach core preferences that are just there, and that's it.
Anakin may have a shitty arc, and EpI isn't an experimental avantgarde movie - but if someone finds the lack of a round arc satisfying and liberating, like some random kid just blows up the donut for no reason and that's somehow entertaining or resembles some real life accident, then whatever.

So if you take my argument against Moth3r before I was banned, I did say that if he actually finds Jar Jar funny, he can float in his boat for all I care.
The beef I had is that, to me, he seemed to just have made a completely careless statement comparing two movies based on little more than both being "silly" and "fun" at places.
Without giving a shadow of thought to whether the silliness was positive, or negative, its proportions, how well the characters worked, etc.

I liked Jar Jar myself when I was a kid, and I still love the stupid robots in EpIII although almost everyone else seems to hate them.
So I have no delusions about my tastes being objective in this regard.

You can. I think what was getting people upset was the abrasive way you'd do it, with remarks such as, "Well, its official now, accept it" etc.

Ah, well, yea, but that's not so much being intellectually dishonest, as just being a douche :p

I don't always do that, but there are certain "triggers" that create a desire to phrase things like this.
For example, if I start arguing against someone, and they start repeatedly telling me how "that's just my opinion", and "i have mine, and you have yours, and we should respect each other", you just want to jab them somehow :D

*agreeing with the rest*

Who can prove me objectively wrong either way?

Well I don't really want to dig up the remake argument right now, as I don't remember it very well, but I think my problem was that he wasn't calling certain remakes bad, he was trying to establish some philosophy/system, under which creating a remake of a movie is somehow inherently unjustified.

So I say, look, man, it IS justified, for those who make it (genuinely), and for those who want to watch it, because the "alternate fingerprints", or subltle to heavy changes in tone, setting, accents and angles, i.e., can be a sufficient and worthy motivation to rewrite/reshoot a movie, and to have interest in watching it.
(The human mind likes recognition, so seeing the same thing in a slightly different version can be appealing.)

He also brought up several reasons why remakes can work badly, to which I all agreed.


So basically, I found his reasoning in establishing some over-arching philosophy to be flawed and arbitrary, especially as I think that creators and audiences make their own values and preferences (so basically I was the one arguing for subjectivity.. hehe).
I also couldn't get for the love of God why this "lack of creativity" should apply to remakes, but not to fan edits to somehow.

Just found the whole argument to be nonsensical, and I simply don't like beating around the bush saying "but I surely just don't understand your view" when it clearly seems to me that someone hasn't thought things through (and I'm articulating why).

No certainty about being right there, just (at that moment) no reason to believe otherwise ;)

So I hope that clears it up a bit.

0:50

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rW6M8D41ZWU#t=56 LOL!

twooffour said:

like some random kid just blows up the donut for no reason

greenpenguino said:

Can someone please ban him/her/it?

This.

Usually you can't ban somebody for stuff they're doing in off-topic, but Shirley there must be some kind of exception......

Ziggy Stardust said:

greenpenguino said:

Can someone please ban him/her/it?

This.

Usually you can't ban somebody for stuff they're doing in off-topic, but Shirley there must be some kind of exception......

For breaking which rule, exactly?

twooffour said:

Ziggy Stardust said:

greenpenguino said:

Can someone please ban him/her/it?

This.

Usually you can't ban somebody for stuff they're doing in off-topic, but Shirley there must be some kind of exception......

For breaking which rule, exactly?

People have been banned for being a dick before, even in off-topic, and even if it isn't in the rules.

twooffour said:

Ziggy Stardust said:

greenpenguino said:

Can someone please ban him/her/it?

This.

Usually you can't ban somebody for stuff they're doing in off-topic, but Shirley there must be some kind of exception......

For breaking which rule, exactly?

Well, I can think of many, but calling Moth3r a douche is probably your highest chance of getting banned again...

Ziggy Stardust said:

twooffour said:

Ziggy Stardust said:

greenpenguino said:

Can someone please ban him/her/it?

This.

Usually you can't ban somebody for stuff they're doing in off-topic, but Shirley there must be some kind of exception......

For breaking which rule, exactly?

Well, I can think of many, but calling Moth3r a douche is probably your highest chance of getting banned again...

I said he was BEING a douche, AT THAT TIME.

Having that said, how often have I been called a douche, an asshole, a twat, or whatever else, in the last few days?
Double standards make you look like a douche. Now stop.

"Oh my god, I don't like this guy, please, someone just ban him, so I don't have to put up with any of that!! Call the authorities so they pwn this guy for me!!"
Utterly pathetic.

TV's Frink said:

twooffour said:

Ziggy Stardust said:

greenpenguino said:

Can someone please ban him/her/it?

This.

Usually you can't ban somebody for stuff they're doing in off-topic, but Shirley there must be some kind of exception......

For breaking which rule, exactly?

People have been banned for being a dick before, even in off-topic, and even if it isn't in the rules.

So I can think of a number of people who've also been dicks (arguably, but not really, even more so) in the last few days.
I don't hear anything about them getting banned ;)
Or you.

twooffour said:

Ziggy Stardust said:

twooffour said:

Ziggy Stardust said:

greenpenguino said:

Can someone please ban him/her/it?

This.

Usually you can't ban somebody for stuff they're doing in off-topic, but Shirley there must be some kind of exception......

For breaking which rule, exactly?

Well, I can think of many, but calling Moth3r a douche is probably your highest chance of getting banned again...

I said he was BEING a douche, AT THAT TIME.

WHAT a WEAK DEFENSE.

TV's Frink said:

twooffour said:

Ziggy Stardust said:

twooffour said:

Ziggy Stardust said:

greenpenguino said:

Can someone please ban him/her/it?

This.

Usually you can't ban somebody for stuff they're doing in off-topic, but Shirley there must be some kind of exception......

For breaking which rule, exactly?

Well, I can think of many, but calling Moth3r a douche is probably your highest chance of getting banned again...

I said he was BEING a douche, AT THAT TIME.

WHAT a WEAK DEFENSE.

Granted.

Btw, I've remembered another few nice words from the recent past: "dick", "dickwad". Guess who said it, and to whom.

So why don't I hear suggestions to ban you, or anyone else?
No weak defenses, please.

twooffour said:

So why don't I hear suggestions to ban you, or anyone else?
No weak defenses, please.

Maybe because you are a dick to anyone who disagrees with you, whereas I'm just a dick to you?  Maybe because no one really wants me banned, but several people want you banned?

TV's Frink said:

twooffour said:

So why don't I hear suggestions to ban you, or anyone else?
No weak defenses, please.

Maybe because you are a dick to anyone who disagrees with you, whereas I'm just a dick to you?  Maybe because no one really wants me banned, but several people want you banned?

Maybe because you are a dick to anyone who disagrees with you, whereas I'm just a dick to you?

I'm just a dick to you

Maybe because no one really wants me banned, but several people want you banned?

twister111 said:

 

twooffour said:

Granted.

Btw, I've remembered another few nice words from the recent past: "dick", "dickwad". Guess who said it, and to whom.

So why don't I hear suggestions to ban you, or anyone else?
No weak defenses, please.

twooffour said:

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Is-Part-4-of-anything-ever-good/post/515350/#TopicPost515350

twister111 said:

I'll take that as admitting you just want to piss me off. Your defence is what I was referring to BTW. Also regardless of my yawn pics I did read that post and, the above quoted. As for the rest it's not worth debating because, you're just trying to piss me off.

Ah, well, when you put it like that... yea, yea, mhm, definitely ;)

 

Well you said "yawn" to piss me off, so I want you banned.

twooffour said:

So where's your evidence for that, or is that just an opinion

twooffour said:

TV's Frink said:

twooffour said:

So why don't I hear suggestions to ban you, or anyone else?
No weak defenses, please.

Maybe because you are a dick to anyone who disagrees with you, whereas I'm just a dick to you?  Maybe because no one really wants me banned, but several people want you banned?

 

 

Maybe because you are a dick to anyone who disagrees with you, whereas I'm just a dick to you?

So where's your evidence for that, or is that just an opinion?

I'm just a dick to you

And that's okay in terms of forum rules and civility, how?
Especially considering that you're extending this to other threads, too, whereas I don't remember myself doing that. I didn't.

 

Maybe because no one really wants me banned, but several people want you banned?

So what kind of a board is that where people get banned at the whims of other members?
Why not just post in the rules "if you get unpopular with the members, you'll get banned"?

Are you even serious?

 

By the way, none of this has anything to do with what I was talking about.  You asked why there were no calls to have me or others banned, I suggested a few reasons why.

Well, as you might've guessed, it was bait question, and you provided the exact answers I'd expected.

twooffour said:

Well, as you might've guessed, it was bait question, and you provided the exact answers I'd expected.

Congratulations.

1) I know what a bait question is, but thanks for assuming I didn't.
2) Ask again, I'll give the same answers.
3) Are you really having fun trolling the forum?