How would you have done ROTJ? — Page 5

TV's Frink said:

danny_boy said:

TV's Frink said:

danny_boy said:

theprequelsrule said:

danny_boy said:

What would I have done to Jedi?

 

Nothing.

 

It is fine as is.

Agreed. This thread is unworthy of OOT fans.

Indeed!

I find it hypocritical that fans here curse Lucas for changing the OT,yet have no problems with introducing hypothetical changes of their own!

Then I'm not sure you understand what hypocritical means.

Is there a single fan here that would deny everyone the original versions?  Even kenkraly understands that part of it.

Well as I already said-Lucas has only deprived fans of seeing the original versions in good quality(Blu ray/anamorphic standard def DVD)-as opposed to denying them the original versions in any quality-big difference.

Oh, ok.  Forum closed.  :-/

Even if the OT is eventually released on Blu ray-----this forum will still be around plugging for a release in  4K!

canofhumdingers said:

 I like the idea of having the Emperor do something that shows how powerful the force can be, but not so much this idea specifically.  I like the idea of the force being tightly knit with living things.  Sure it can move inanimate objects via telepathy, but that's not where the real power lies.  The real power lies in the ways it can be used to monipulate or overcome other people (like the mind trick).

See C'baoth, Joruus.

Bingowings said:

danny_boy said:

TV's Frink said:

danny_boy said:

TV's Frink said:

danny_boy said:

theprequelsrule said:

danny_boy said:

What would I have done to Jedi?

 

Nothing.

 

It is fine as is.

Agreed. This thread is unworthy of OOT fans.

Indeed!

I find it hypocritical that fans here curse Lucas for changing the OT,yet have no problems with introducing hypothetical changes of their own!

Then I'm not sure you understand what hypocritical means.

Is there a single fan here that would deny everyone the original versions?  Even kenkraly understands that part of it.

Well as I already said-Lucas has only deprived fans of seeing the original versions in good quality(Blu ray/anamorphic standard def DVD)-as opposed to denying them the original versions in any quality-big difference.

Oh, ok.  Forum closed.  :-/

 

Even if the OT is eventually released on Blu ray-----this forum will still be around plugging for a release in  4K!

 

Blu-Ray isn't the only issue, for one thing as a distribution medium it's probably a got a shorter shelf life than DVD.

For me the clincher is when restored prints of the original films are allowed a theatrical showing on request and when the OUT receives the same amount of home cinema distribution coverage as the SEs.

Maybe George is a OT.COM fan and won't give us what we want because he just loves reading these boards.

haha

I do often wonder if this is some cynical machination by Lucas to amplify the prestige of the OUT.

Think of a world where there had never been any SE's.

Would there have been as much clamouring for the OUT as there has been over the last 10-15 years?

Asteroid-Man said:

There are little bits of ROTJ that made it not as good as it could have been. It had the potential to be the best Star Wars film but failed. How would you have done it?

 

Here's my take:

If Endor's moon was actually a moon of Coruscant and if it was actually Kashykk, I would have loved to see Han and Chewie leading an assault on Endor and then Luke and Leia leading a battle on Coruscant, and then Luke fights his way to the Emperor's office on Coruscant in the old Republic Building, now Emperial Palace and Vader is awaiting Luke in the office. Vader then takes Luke with him to the Death Star Orbitting Coruscant. On Kashyyk, Chewie and Han free Wookie slaves to use them as help to take out the Death Star Shield. The Death Star dogfight is lead by Lando. Han has to manually detonate the charges in the shield room on Kashyyk because the remote fails to work and he is hurt by the blast. The Vader Vs. Luke battle should have a faster paced score and then it becomes slow and Dark when the Emperor intervenes. Death Star scene continues until Vader's death. Vader disappears from the suit and there is a funeral pyre on Coruscant. Luke and Leia go to Kashyyk where Han is dying. As they (Lando, Luke, Leia and Chewie) are standing around him, a last speech is given from one of them or Luke, Leia and Han. Han dies as the camera pulls back to reveal the force ghosts watching over. Camera pulls up to show the sky turn to daylight. Fireworks go off. In the morning, we see a montage of celebrations around the Galaxy, and then we get a scene where Luke is in the old Council room (partly damaged and lit only by the window) with the force ghosts sitting in their seats as they have their last words with Luke. Roll Credits.

O.K---right off the bat and as I already mentioned-I personally would not change a thing in ROTJ.

And I know it is easy to nitpick someone-else's idea.

And whilst I don't have a  problem with the content of the above alternative script, I do have a problem with how it would have been executed with the cinematic tools of the late 70's/early 80's.

Corruscant as we know it(The presentation as shown from 1999-2005) would not have been feasable with the technology of 1981-82.

Corruscant would have to have been rendered as an eloborate minature.

But it would have been lifeless(I.E not many flying vehicles ect ect---and therefore reducing it's sense of scale and size)

You also have to remember that Blade Runner debuted barely a year before.

Too many fans in 83' would have thought that Star Wars was ripping off Blade Runner( I actually thought Corruscant in 99' ripped of Blade Runner!)

And any "Wookie battle" would have been like a crass combination of the holiday special meeting Planet Of The Apes.

It barely works in 2005 with the battle on Kashyyk.

I highlighted it elsewhere---too many fans are trying to re-interpret ROTJ ,having been exposed to 20+ years of CGI infested movies (Matrix.Lord Of The Ring ect) that have come into play since ROTJ debuted in theaters.

As for Han being killed off---well it is extremly subjective....but put it this way.

Had Lucas and Kurtz never met ---who would been more successful on an individual basis---I don't know about you but I would wager Lucas would have had greater success.

And there is a reason for it.

Lucas knew exactly how much resonance(character depth) and tonality(suspense,horror,drama) to infuse in his films.If you lose the balance between these separate elements ,the quality of the movie diminishes.

Empire's secret is that it could afford to be dark and downbeat because there was still(at that point in time -circa 1980-81)an asyet untold conclusion to the story-to be resolved by ROTJ.Empire is effectively a link in the chain (and a vital one at that) but nothing more than a link.

In other words Empire's power  would fail if there was no conclusive 3rd act to follow it.

Prior to ROTJ coming out---- the anticipation of the fans(from my own personal recollection) to see the Empire get it's ass well and truly kicked(after 2 films in which it practically dominated proceedings) was sky high.

Lucas understood this and that is why ROTJ is the way it is.

I saw Jedi in 83 ,aged 9 and none of the kids aspired  for a wookie battle or for Han to have been killed.

TheoOdo said:

You seem to be making an argument for a Coruscant-like city in the same breath that you argue against it. Blade Runner very successfully created a futuristic city with the effects of the time. The reason the Coruscant of the prequels reminds you of Blade Runner is probably because it deliberately rips off several shots and features of the futuristic L.A. The industrial plane with torches shooting flame, the passenger car landing on an apartment building shot from above, holographic advertisements etc.

 

Not at all--I was under the assumption that the author of the alternative script was refering to corruscant in the terms of how it was presented in the prequels---if he was not---then he could have called it anything!

 

A futuristic city in the OT would likely have quite a different tone than the noir inspired city of Blade Runner or the political hub of the prequels. The galaxy is under the control of a despot and this is the center of his activities. The tone would probably be like Nazi occupied Berlin. Some sections would house the sympathetic elite and would be resplendent with propaganda, banners and troops while others would be slums, housing the more aggressive of the Empire's enforcers, the poor and disenfranchised and pockets of resistance represented by graffiti and destroyed propaganda posters.

Yeah sounds like a good idea.

I think it would have been possible to create a city with a style recognised as distinct from that of Blade Runner. Yes, some would accuse them of ripping off Blade Runner, but that always happens in film criticism. The Return of the King was even accused of ripping off Pirates of the Caribbean in some reviews I read for including a shot of the ghost army charging from a ship. On these terms, a successful argument could be made that Blade Runner simply ripped off Metropolis. Doesn't mean they don't stand on their own or do something different with the same idea.

Interesting about the Pirates--Lord Of The Rings claim---I never knew that and never made the connection until you mentioned it!-definitely a more subtle connection!

This is all beside the point, anyways, because ripping off others is surelybetter than lazily attempting to recreate past successes - which is what they did with the Death Star II.

Maybe the idea of recreating the death star was lazy----but the attempt or execution was exhilarating----to date---the best crafted space battle put to film---not bad for a 28 year old movie.

And with all due respect ,at least on a technical level, it put the death star conflict in Ep 4(which I love BTW) in the shade.

 

 

I think you'd be hard pressed to conceive of something less tasteful than the Ewoks. I don't actually dislike them all that much, I just see that they're corny and cutesy. A Wookiee army could work if treated appropriately, the trouble is that they were treated badly in the prequels. Firstly, they did the Tarzan yell, which was bad in Jedi and was worse in Sith. Secondly, they were facing off against a not very intimidating enemy, the droids - who actually pass close to the screen and shout "charge" in a high-pitched voice. The whole scene is bad. The wookiees don't stand a chance of shining through.

"Crass" is a matter of execution. It could have been done well.

The costumes were certainly done well, even if we weren't given time to care about the characters behind them.

 

 

If Ewoks are corny or cutesy then Wookies(in numbers----as in ROTS) are annoyingly noisy!.

Chewbacca in isolation is fine because he interacts with other species.But the minute one wookie growls to another it just sounds like an amplified version of Planet Of The Apes or even 2001(and yes-the Holiday special)!

If I am not mistaken Lucas envisioned a climactic battle involving Wookies before he really had a final concept of what Wookies would look and behave like.

It was the signing of Mahew that enabled Chewbacca as a creature to evolve into the Wookie that we all came to know and love.

Once that evolution was complete,maybe Lucas dispensed with the idea of the wookies as a pivotal fighting force.

 

TheoOdo said: What Lucas wanted to do with Star Wars seems quite different from what made it a success. The original drafts are a testament to that and the original cut of ANH is regarded as having been a disaster.

Kurtz has said that he challenged Lucas on several of his decisions, and I think it's this combative partnership which resulted in the movies working as well as they did.

The fact that Kurtz was absent when they made Jedi seems to be further evidence of this. It is generally accepted to be lower quality than the rest of the trilogy, which Kurtz worked closely on. The same can be said of the prequels, which seem to be kept afloat only by the Star Wars brand.

On financial success alone, you may be right, but I'd still disagree. Being good at making money is different from being good at making films.

 

You make valid points-but film-making is by it's very nature  a collaborative process. But if you look at in terms of contribution to the collaboration:

Lucas concieved the project.He designed the story and created it's characters.He envisioned it's enviroment and designated it's tonality.

He directed the actors and edited the footage aswell as creating and galvanizing(along with Kurtz) the effects crew.

Kurtz's contributions are less voluminous(but still significant) with regards to Star wars.

But there would be no  Star Wars without Lucas-wheras there would be a Star Wars(and was) without Kurtz(although less good).

 

Obviously not, but, then, you can hardly aspire for a movie to be a certain

way when you have nothing to go on. It'd be pretty crazy to enter a film and say "Gee, I sure hope a major character dies".

We, on the other hand, have had many years to consider this and also interviews, behind the scenes knowledge, drafts and other details to form our opinions on.

Well on that basis we could subject any film or work of art to that premise.

There are parts of Lawrence Of Arabia,2001,Citizen Kane and The Godfather or even Episode IV or V that could have been done different (or better) with the benefit of those factors that you mentioned above.

Hell Adywans version of Star Wars is proof of that!

 

 

Just so you know, Danny, the accepted practice is to switch in and out of quotes

Something someone said

My response.

timdiggerm said:

Just so you know, Danny, the accepted practice is to switch in and out of quotes

Something someone said

My response.

Yeah cheers--am working on it!

TV's Frink said:

tl;dr either way.

;-)

True.

I have long assumed you're a redditor.

Well. Never....mind.

You just keep saying things that I've only ever seen on reddit.com, and it confuses the heck out of me.

Never mind....

I saw ROTJ as a 9 yo and LOVED it!  I recall the huge anticipation I had to see the space battle(I'm an x-wing fanatic, its the greatest fighter...EVER!) and the revealing of Anakin skywalker.  Several of my friends told me in advance that the movie was awesome.  I still love the film, love the unfinished look of DSII and love Luke's journey to jedi knighthood.  The only change I would make nowadays is having Leia abducted by bounty hunters during hans rescue on tatooine.  the bounty hunters deliver her to Vader and the emperor, for they already know that leia is a potential force user, Vader's daughter and is going to turn her to the darkside in the hopes that Luke will follow as well.  And the rebels to stage a final assault on an imperial city headquarters on Endor rather than another DS assault.  The Emperor,Vader take Leia to an ancient Sith temple in the heart of imperial city.  in a nutshell the battle would go as:

The rebel fleet en masse, attacks the star destroyer blockade guarding Endor to provide a window for han,luke, chewy and multiple rebel ground assault teams to invade Endor and initiate a ground assault on imperial city.  The rebels are armed with lots of cool ground assault vehicles, cannons etc.  Han heads the main ground force with Luke taking a small platoon of soldiers in the 2nd wave and infiltrates imperial city to the sith temple.  Inside the dark sith temple, luke tries to persuade Vader to go back to the good side and release his daughter, so they can be a family.  Vader fights instead, still loses his hand and yields.  Luke then refuses the Emperor's offer and demands the release of leia.  The emporor attacks luke with lightning, which luke initially blocks.  Along with lightning, the emporor force attacks with multiple projectiles.  Luke, being pummeled to death asks for his father's help.  Leia screams for her father's help, in which the Emporor turns around and force chokes her.  Anakin reaches up and attempts a force choke on the emporor, who shifts his lightning attack on anakin.  Luke, battered and bloody uses that window of opportunity to lunge forward and impail the emperor, then decapitate him.  Luke and leia remove Vader's mask to see their father, who dies shortly, burn down the sith temple and leave the destroyed imperial city. During the celebration, Luke announces a new jedi academy and will seek out desciples throughout the galaxy

We don't even know if Kurtz's alleged Jedi Treatment is even true and we won't until Rizner's book comes out.

He has already blasted some of the Kurtz hero worship out of the water with the empire book which proves Lucas had much more involvement than fans want to acknowledge.

skyjedi2005 said:

We don't even know if Kurtz's alleged Jedi Treatment is even true and we won't until Rizner's book comes out.

He has already blasted some of the Kurtz hero worship out of the water with the empire book which proves Lucas had much more involvement than fans want to acknowledge.

Yes. We can't let what Lucas has become cloud our judgement on who he was. The man had a great talent for storytelling and filmmaking. Yes, he struggled with dialogue, but from what I have read a lot of the dialogue he wrote was not thrown away, but rather rewritten to be snappier. He was given credit as the writer of Star Wars, and rightly so.

You cannot compare the prequels with ROTJ. ROTJ, despite it's problems, had some of the best moments of the saga. Indeed, if Fisher and Ford were not in coma's during filming then it could have been on pair with the prior films - ewoks or no ewoks.

Bingowings said:

Mark turns in a performance consistent with the rest of the films and that's it really.

I strongly disagree with the above statement. Mark's performance is excellent; far superior to his work in the prior two films. It's not so much about what he says, then what he doesn't say. There is just a quiet sadness to the performance that really gets me when I watch ROTJ; which makes the ending Ewok celebration when he sees the ghosts, and that sadness lifts, so powerful.

Maybe I'm reading to much into it. I am a biased defender of ROTJ afterall!

theprequelsrule said:

Bingowings said:

Mark turns in a performance consistent with the rest of the films and that's it really.

I strongly disagree with the above statement. Mark's performance is excellent; far superior to his work in the prior two films. It's not so much about what he says, then what he doesn't say. There is just a quiet sadness to the performance that really gets me when I watch ROTJ; which makes the ending Ewok celebration when he sees the ghosts, and that sadness lifts, so powerful.

Maybe I'm reading to much into it. I am a biased defender of ROTJ afterall!

 

Agreed!

The evolution of the character(Luke) was the arc of the trilogy-Hamil gave 3 distinct performances in the 3 films which gave the OT it's variety and in someways-it's unpredictablility.

Bingowings said:

The only person who comes close is Ian and he is trying his best with some really awful hammy dialogue which he manages to transcend with a genuinely creepy vocal and physical nonchalance (he isn't the Emperor I imagined from the more spooky ESB hologram but that's not his fault).

Making hammy dialogue sound good was one of the things that gives these movies their charm, as Harrison Ford found out ("You can write this shit George, but you can't say it.").

When it doesn't succeed...you get the prequels. All the Star Wars films dance on a razor's edge from becoming spoofs/parodies.