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Info: OT Bootleg DVDs — Page 24

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the "faces" set comes in 2 discs, while the definitive edition comes in 3. I assume that the def ed has better image quality since it is on more data
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"I personally wasn't interested in a 16:9 version as I use a CRT projector stack and project onto a 12 foot wide screen.
CRT projectors areinherently 4:3 devices, so that is where my bias comes in. Also on a screen that size you do see the quality drop in the conversion to 16:9, small as it is."


True, but after some experimentation, I found that using 3-2-2-3 pull-down on my AVI master made a slight improvement, so I made the footage progressive. It looks pretty nice on my neighbor's 60 inch widescreen tv.

"To the guys that are using there digicams to digitise the footage, it is a nice and easy method, but they are not the best quality wise, and you are also throwing away a lot of chroma resolution by downsampling to 4:1:0 before then re-transcoding it AGAIN to DVD.
Ideally You really want to come in to an uncompressed stream, that retains full chroma resolution. (4:4:4)"


Agreed, but this is just the first step in a continuing line of improvements I intend to make. Since I wanted a digicam anyways for home videos, I thought I'd kill two birds with one stone. After buying that, two 160 and one 250 GB hard drives, and a laserdisc player (my third, don't ask), I figured I'd see what I could do so far. In the future, I'd like to get a high-end model video-capture card, but using dedicated hardware to capture/convert the footage seemed a decent place to start.

"As for the soundtrack, from my reading, the SE versions have had a full remix done from the original multitude of mono and stereo tracks, but I will wait and see what the sound is like."

Maybe I should clarify....I was referring to the SE LD's, not the upcoming SE DVD's. The LD's were done strictly from analog sources. Burtt has digitized all known audio sources (save an occasional line of dialogue or foley effect) to remix the DVD soundtracks.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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"the "faces" set comes in 2 discs, while the definitive edition comes in 3. I assume that the def ed has better image quality since it is on more data "

But the "data" is the same. The running length is also the same. The only difference is how it is recorded onto the disc (more specifically, the rotational speed of the disc). This only aides in pausing still images (among other effects, such fast forward, etc.) The "Faces" set was the last version created just prior to the SE's, and as far as I can tell, has a cleaner picture (not by a tremendous margin, but it's there.)

Of course, my Def. Col. ROTJ set shows some occasional "spotting", easily seen in darker scenes. It's not horrible, but my Faces set has no visual problems. It's also easier to record, having only two discs (and my 701 has auto-flipping...much easier to make one big .avi file - 30 Gbs!)

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Originally posted by: vince_the_destroyer
the "faces" set comes in 2 discs, while the definitive edition comes in 3. I assume that the def ed has better image quality since it is on more data


As far as I know, the only difference between the two transfers is that the Definitive Collection LD's are CAV and the Faces LD's are CLV. The picture quality should be the same. The only difference is that you can have smooth slow motion, frame by frame, and such with CAV but not with CLV. The only reason I bought the Definitive set was for the extras.

Patrick

"When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk." - Tuco from The Good, The Bad And The Ugly
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All I am doing is hard-coding the Pro-logic II soundtrack that you would normally get from a Pro-Logic II receiver, and storing it in compressed form. Is this really so difficult for you to understand? It's a tedious process, but it sounds incredible. I would imagine many of the so-called "5.1" mixes you've heard (if any) weren't done correctly, since the method used was very difficult to locate and fine-tune.

This is not a bad idea, but you are assuming that your PL decoder/encoder is better than the one the end user would be using. What if my system is better at taking a DD 2.0 and playing it back in proper PLIIx surround than your 5.1 mix? Youre assuming alot to say your 5.1 is the best solution. At least when you encode in 2.0, its up to the end user system how it is decoded. When you encode into 5.1, thats the only option anyonehave for playback. People with stereo setups would be out of luck too, as 5.1 does not translate well into stereo. The original 2.0 mix would play perfectly. I dont see any advantage to encoding this into 5.1. You are really only taking a step out of the process that anyone with a surround sound system could and should do themselves.

It's a tedious process,


Tedious? Then why do it? Anyone with a PLII decoder achieve the same result from a 2 channel source, so why bother?

Hey Dude...chill out. It gives me a Pro-logic II soundtrack without needing a Pro-logic II outboard decoder (which I don't have), and the .ac3 file takes up far less space than the PCM file. If you knew what you were doing, you'd see the obvious benefits here.


Benefits for you. Its catered to your setup, buts a compromise to anyone who has PLII or PLIIx in their setup, like me.

Im not saying what you are doing is completly wrong, and I know you have the best intentions, but I dont think 5.1 encoding should be done.
If theyre exclusively for you, fine. But overall, not the way to go.

aka nostromo777 on myspleen

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"This is not a bad idea, but you are assuming that your PL decoder/encoder is better than the one the end user would be using."

I made no "assumptions", I simply want to see how good a job I could do at this moment. These discs were only intended for me. If, in the future, I get a PLII reciever and a dual-layer DVD burner, then I'll go back to the digital PCM. I guarantee this will not be the last time I attempt to make SW DVD's.

Right now, I enjoy listening to my Star Wars DVD in DD 5.1. Is that really so bad?

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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I was revising my post to correct my flaw in logic. They are your DVDs, so you should cater then to your system. But if they were intended for sharing, I would avoid it.

Right now, I enjoy listening to my Star Wars DVD in DD 5.1. Is that really so bad?
ITs not bad, but its not 5.1 . Its PLII trapped in a 5.1 body.

aka nostromo777 on myspleen

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<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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I was referring to the SE LD's, not the upcoming SE DVD's. The LD's were done strictly from analog sources. Burtt has digitized all known audio sources (save an occasional line of dialogue or foley effect) to remix the DVD soundtracks.

This is completely and totally false. The soundtracks for the SE LD's were the same soundtracks used for the theatrical re-releases in 1997 which were (for all intensive purposes) 5.1 mixes. The laserdiscs were faithful to this new remix and had some of the best directional effects around. No fidgeting with a 2.0 mix is going to achieve that. Sorry, but you're wrong.

It's not like my soundtrack is causing you physical harm, right? Quit making this into a pissing contest.


I never said it was. If you're creating these for yourself, then fine. I don't care if you make pan-and-scan versions of them. But if you're making them to try and better the versions out there, a 5.1 remix that you've done yourself is not going to do it. Regardless of what you're doing...a remixed and compressed 5.1 remix will NEVER sound better than a PCM 2.0 if that was its original format.

Drop the attitude. I've been nothing but nice on this forum and I'm doing a big service to the fans. Just because I'm challenging what YOU are doing, don't get nasty.
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Sorry digitalfreak but your wrong. Well not wrong, just not correctly understanding what he is say is all. You see the 97 SE LD and Theatrical mix was 5.1. There you are right, but it was mixed up to a 5.1 mix from all analog sources. So there he is right.

Get that both right.

5.1 yes.
Mixed into 5.1 from analog masters.

What he is also saying is that the new DVD's will be the first time that the movie will be mixed into 5.1 from Digital Sources. That sound guy went and put all the old stuff onto a puter or something like that. I'll try to find the article about it for you.

So yes the 97 versions were 5.1 mixes but they weren't digital 5.1 mixes. A simple miss understanding. But damn they sounded good didn't they?

“You know, when you think about it, the Ewoks probably just crap over the sides of their tree-huts.”

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There you are right, but it was mixed up to a 5.1 mix from all analog sources


There's a difference between a mix derived from an analog source and a mix that's created from a 2.0 stereo mix as he's trying to do. I'm still right.
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Well you’re not wrong or right. I think all he was saying is that he is mixing up his mix from a 2.0 source much the same way the sound team at Lucasfilms mixed up theirs. But I honestly don't care about all that.

Here is the info I promised you. It's taken from www.thedigitalbits.com/rumormill.html about 1/4 the way down the page

“Also, we've heard a reader who recently had the chance to talk with Star Wars sound designer Ben Burtt about the upcoming DVD release. Here's the info (special thanks to our reader for sending this in):

I spoke with Ben Burtt recently. He mentioned the upcoming Star Wars DVDs. It seems that they were able to go back and digitize all of the original tracks and rebuild the show from scratch. For the previous Theatrical Special Editions they were only able to go back and re-mix and edit from the pre-mixes which were sonically limited by the analogue recording and reproduction systems of the time. Since Ben was responsible for archiving all of the sound on A New Hope, all of the sounds were able to be found except for a couple of foley tracks which I'm assuming will be re-done. So it seems that we will be hearing Star Wars in a way we've never heard it before. He did not mention if Empire and Jedi would be receiving the same treatment.”


Can you imagine how good the new soundtrack will sound if this info is correct. DAMN!

“You know, when you think about it, the Ewoks probably just crap over the sides of their tree-huts.”

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"Regardless of what you're doing...a remixed and compressed 5.1 remix will NEVER sound better than a PCM 2.0 if that was its original format."

First of all, it's not any more "remixed" than that which you listen to on your PLII receiver. I've not doctored anything.

Secondly, it's kinda funny, because I've never claimed anything along the lines of my soundtrack sounding greater or worse. ou seem to be an expert on a soundtrack you've not even heard

"Drop the attitude. I've been nothing but nice on this forum and I'm doing a big service to the fans. Just because I'm challenging what YOU are doing, don't get nasty."

Why oh WHY do people create 5.1 tracks. THERE IS NO 5.1 TRACK!!!!!!!!!!! LEAVE IT ALONE!!!!!!!

The Def. Collection is the same transfer as the faces laserdisc. *sigh* Do you know what you're doing?


That's funny. I read two, very definite slams in your inital post to mine, which simply explained what I had done. Is this what you consider "nice"? Treating people who "mess" with your precious PCM soundtrack like they killed your favorite kitten? You were so anxious to put down my project that you didn't even realize my question implied the fact that the Def. Col. and "Faces" sets were the same transfer. I've yet to see what "service" was really being given here. Everyone else seems to be able to respond in an amiable manner to what I talked about. You might consider following their lead, instead of getting "nasty" yourself.

"I think all he was saying is that he is mixing up his mix from a 2.0 source much the same way the sound team at Lucasfilms mixed up theirs. But I honestly don't care about all that."

Agreed. It formed the basis for the 5.1 remix (which didn't just "pop" into existence on its own, ya know), but was not the remix in and of itself. Obviously, it was touched up beyond that for the LD and theatrical releases, which is more than I did for mine. You want to scream at someone for altering the soundtrack, go scream at Ben Burtt and Gary Summers.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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My Dad's bigger than your Dad!

Seriously guys, lets all drop it and move on and back onto topic. I think we are all clear that
a) Anyone here can make whatever version they like for their own use
b) The new DVD's look like they will have a new improved DD soundtrack, different from the one on the SE laserdiscs
c) Everyone was and always is right
d) Everyone here is usually pretty damn nice here, and is here coz they share a common love of the movies. Unfortunately with the intenet being a text only medium misunderstandings occur that wouldn't happen if you were in a room chatting.

Now back to our regularly scheduled topic
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Agreed.

So Laserman, what card do you use (or recommend) for your captures? How does it differ from using my camcorder? Even though they both produce .avi's (I'm assuming they both have 4:1 compression), how are things like chroma changed in the capture process?

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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OH yea,
I'm gonna capture my 35mm reels of the original trilogy that I bought... NO, wait Found in an hidden room at my Great Great Grandmas house (She used to babysit lil' George Lucas you know). THEN I'm gonna take the original STEREOPHONIC sound and digitally remaster the audio into a Digital 9.1 MPEG and a 7.1 DTS soundtrack (The Yamaha RX-Z9 offers 9.1 - REALLY I'm not joking!) and then I'll burn it to a 4-D Holographic DVD

REALLY now children (or 30+ years old men in PJ's in mom's basement that is )

SURE it's cool to spend all kinds of time capturing and converting video I do this myself with my old VHS tapes (parties, my old skate videos and of course my kids!) all the time but to go ON and ON about how you did it and why you did this and that to improve the quality........

Enough is enough - I feel that EVERYBODY should just STOP trying to better everyone else by trying to get the best capture UNTIL the Dual Layer DVD writers are out.

Then at that point capture away!!!

I have like the largest Star Wars movie collection around and when it comes time to REALLY watch Star Wars (you know; popcorn, a tall iced coke, snacks and a few friends)

- I use my REAL and VERY cool Trilogy Laser Discs. Yes that's right I watch the Laser Discs!

And I even get to use the digital PCM audio as my player has an AC3 (optical digital output) out and can output the REAL THX/Dolby Surround signal once sent to my Onkyo 501 and decoded into DTS Neo:6 a process in which a true matrixed stereo signal is processed into 6.1 w/advanced sub-band signal processing= why bother with Pro-logic II and bootlegs?

The resulting audio track sounds WAY AWESOME and I also think that the Laser Discs sound BETTER then the Episode 1 or 2 DVD's
- sure they have real DD-EX 6.1 BUT some scenes just sound so fake, hollow, tinny and way too loud in the rear channels

PROPS to all those that have captured the movie and shared them with all of us.... You all have done a very wonderful job, be it a letterboxed 4:3 or an Anamorphic 1.78:1 widescreen!

BUT

I'll tell you, NO ONE has a DVD version that looks or sounds as GREAT as the real Laser Discs... Nope, not, no one, nobody does and it's not gonna happen PERIOD.

- RiKteR

“My skill are no longer as Mad as the once were” RiK

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I agree about all of the fighting. I myself probably sound harsh, but that is not my intent at all. I'm big on 16:9 as I see no disadvantage to it, but I do not have a DLP projector to test with, so I could see how upconverting to 16:9 would have degradation when viewed on a very large screen like 12 foot. Man that must be awesome though to have that setup.

As far as the widescreen TV's go. I don't know if it is a problem for most of them. I was only able to test out 3 myself. However, most of the people with 16:9 TV's on that huge Star Wars thread at DVDRHelp said they didn't like the way their 4:3 encodes came out on their 16:9 sets, but they were happier when they went back and did 16:9 encodes and played them back.

I stopped calling the 16:9 encodes we do Anamorphic since it is a different process done with different equipment than Hollywood. I could be mistaken, but IIRC, they scan the film image frame by frame at the highest possible resolution into something and the shape is changed at that point. So they create a digital master that is truly Anamorphic. I don't know where they do color correction and cleanup. I guess they do it to their digital master, but I have no idea. Anyway, Anamorphic actually has to do with the shape of a camera lens.

Also, Laserman is right that you do not gain any extra resolution doing 16:9 encodes from 4:3 sources, but Hollywood does when they do their process.

I'm not trying to top anyone elses project at all. I would be happy with the Torrent Files instead of redoing my own project if they had two things. If they were redone on dual layered discs and if ESB wasn't missing 17 seconds (that's a result of the first pressing of the Definitive Collection LD's). I'm glad I have a later pressing. I actually didn't know about that flaw when I got mine, so I panicked when I found out about it and was relieved when I saw mine were okay.

I can't wait until dual layered burners come out and someone writes a guide on how to use them or how they work as I have questions.
1.) Do you split the movies in half like I did on my 2 disc versions and have the authoring software join the two halves together?
2.) Do you keep the movie as one big file and let the authoring software split it?
3.) Can you tell the authoring software where to make the layer break?

All of my questions are basically about the same thing. I'll probably have to upgrade my encoder as well as it looks like it only supports single layer which is understandable since it is a couple years old.

Maybe Laserman can fill me in on how the dual layered burners work since he has access to one. I'm very curious as going dual layer is going to be a big revolution.

Also, mine have very simple menus with no THX logo. I didn't want a THX logo on my discs or covers as THX wasn't involved in creating the DVD's. I'm not knocking them, but I think they would be insulted to have their logo displayed on something homemade.

I hate to make a correction, but all of the Star Wars films are 2.35:1 instead of 1.78:1.

Patrick
"When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk." - Tuco from The Good, The Bad And The Ugly
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"- I use my REAL and VERY cool Trilogy Laser Discs. Yes that's right I watch the Laser Discs!"

I actually enjoy doing that too, buthaving had replace several laserdisc players (being too expensive to fix) I'd like to have a DVD backups for future viewings (two young children, ya know. )

"I stopped calling the 16:9 encodes we do Anamorphic since it is a different process done with different equipment than Hollywood. I could be mistaken, but IIRC, they scan the film image frame by frame at the highest possible resolution into something and the shape is changed at that point. So they create a digital master that is truly Anamorphic. I don't know where they do color correction and cleanup. I guess they do it to their digital master, but I have no idea. Anyway, Anamorphic actually has to do with the shape of a camera lens."

Well, I apologize in advance for the long article, but it no longer exists on the web (I emailed the author for the html page.) Lucas' reference comes at the end.
DYE TRANSFER

A NEW OPTIMISM

Mention “dye transfer” to most anyone in the publishing industry and they’ll tell you it’s obsolete. Ask commercial printers about it and they’ll declare it passé. Raise the subject with a group of fine-art photographers and printers—even Hollywood filmmakers—and you’re likely to get a different opinion.

At least that was the conclusion at an autumn weekend retreat in Vermont hosted by fine art photographer Luke Powell. Over 30 past and present dye printers and photographers from all over North America, Germany and Australia took Powell up on his invitation. A typical conversation-starter was, “Where were you when you heard…?” The question concerned Kodak’s abrupt decision in 1993 to pull the plug on the manufacture of dye transfer products, leaving some 500 photographers and technicians without a source of the materials they depended on for their livelihood.

That decision is still keenly felt among practitioners. The intensity of their response is remarkable, even more so considering the investment dye transfer requires—and not just in terms of money. The process, also known as dye imbibition, starts by creating tricolor separation negatives from a transparency. Exposing each negative onto a specially-coated film creates three bas-relief images called matrices, the degree of relief proportional to the exposure they receive. The matrices are soaked in complementary acidic dye baths and rolled in register onto special photographic paper secured to a pin-register board. The pH difference between the dye and the paper aids the transfer of the dye. It’s a painstaking process that takes years to master.

So why, in this age of instant gratification, would anyone cling to this technology? For one thing, it gives enormous control over color density and balance. And it yields an archival print of spectacular richness and longevity. Bob Pace, a respected authority on color print processes for two generations of photography professionals, is a fervent believer: “I have made over 25,000 dye transfer prints and nothing I have seen in all this time has shaken my feelings about this process.” And Kodak’s dye transfer guru Frank McLaughlin, who taught the process over the phone to generations of image-makers until his retirement in 1986, states simply, “The dye transfer product is the most manageable, most color-pure, most true-to-life photographic product ever invented.

In The Wake of Dye Transfer’s Demise

In 1993 National Public Radio (NPR) aired a pivotal piece by Rachel Maurer reporting on Kodak’s decision and its impact on dye transfer practitioners. Her follow-up article, “The Demise of Dye Transfer”, published in View Camera magazine, chronicled the ways in which photographers and others responded to the news. Some went into debt to purchase Kodak’s remaining supplies, either to finish projects or to stockpile for future use. Others sought new technologies.

And then there was Dr. Jay Paterson, a psychologist and dye transfer aficionado, who now introduces himself as “the fellow from Houston who was driving around a few years ago, heard the NPR piece on my car radio, and got this idea to see what I could do.” That idea soon germinated into active research and development of new materials. With cooperation from Kodak, Paterson began to achieve good results, gaining attention among dye folks.

In the meantime, John Wawrzonek, a high-end photographic printer, saw digital technology as the future. As possible alternatives to dye transfer, he began exploring UltraStable™, a modern tricolor process, and EverColor™ Pigment Transfer, a four-color separation process based on technology used in the graphic arts industry. Others, however, scoffed at the output. Maurer’s article quoted photographer Dennis Ivy’s opinion that an EverColor print “looked like a plastic place-mat.”

Catching Up on Dye Transfer Developments

The Vermont weekend was at first glance a simple gathering of like-minded people. Dye transfer photographer Ctein traveled from San Francisco simply because “we’ve always been a close-knit community, but most of us have never met face-to-face. This is our grand opportunity.” Even more, it was a chance for people to check out the latest in dye transfer product development. Dr. Paterson, for example, related that he had linked up with chemist John DaSilva of Kilborn Photo Products, Inc., in Iowa, to develop materials. Paterson has formed a company in Houston called Dye Transfer Corporation, or DTC. Matrix film and three types of paper have been tested and are now commercially available. The razor-edge sharpness needed for highly technical images is not where Paterson would like it to be, but he expects to be able to correct that with a thinner base “for those of you who wouldn’t mind some polyethylene in the product.” DTC has also released dyes for testing. “We looked at about 50 yellows and 20 cyans and magentas to arrive at where we are,” Paterson states, noting that the dyes he finally selected are similar to Kodak’s but “a bit on the warmer side.”

Do the materials do the job? “Absolutely,” affirms Nino Mondhe of Hamburg, Germany, who owns one of the few remaining dye transfer labs in Europe and remains committed to the process. He’s tested Paterson’s film and papers extensively and is pleased. “The film is good. It’s slightly slower than the Kodak and a hair thinner, but it works very well. The paper is also good.”

Two of Paterson’s ongoing projects are designed to make dye transfer viable for a larger population. One is to produce a less-costly proofing paper by changing to a more common base, but with the same receiver sheet on top to ensure consistency between the final print and the proof. Another is to marry dye transfer with digital imagery. “We want to be able to scan a transparency and produce intermediate output on matrix film or something similar, or expose matrix film directly from a digital file. We’re working on a machine that can do that in perfect registration up to 30 X 40.”

Already blending digital technology with dye printing is inventor Jim Browning, president of Digital Mask, a New Hampshire color photographic print house. In 1993 he began to develop his own materials so he could continue doing dye transfer and still compete commercially with less expensive processes such as Iris™. Browning has invented his own formulations as well as a small-scale sheet coater, all of which he intends to keep in the public domain. Browning claims he can “go from start to finish in three hours” with a machine he built using tricolor lasers that doubles as a scanner and film recorder. “I use the RGB lasers to produce a high-quality scan. Then I use Live Picture™, an application that allows selective modification of the image. I take that file and, using the laser, record each image one at a time in register on 8 X 10 T-Max™ film, then develop them all at once.” Explaining his decision to go digital, Browning states, “You can’t just dodge-and-burn with dye transfer; you have to use masking. Digital technology makes that more practical. Also people often start with digital files today. So this approach makes it possible for me to serve the markets of both digital artists and fine-art photographers.”

Checking Out the Alternatives

The Vermont gathering also gave people a chance to learn how newer technologies are faring and to inspect images offered by printers like Wawrzonek. Ultrastable never did become one of his tools, as it turned out. “Getting consistent results was hard,” he explains, “and depended on things like the pH of the water. By the time we finally learned to live with that, they’d changed the materials to fix the problem.” Then he took a second look at EverColor, decided its colors were better than Ultrastable’s, and changed his focus. When EverColor asked him to run their operation, they merged with Wawrzonek, renaming the company EverColor Fine Art and relocating it to Worcester, Massachusetts.

Wawrzonek’s primary tool is Luminage™, a process that combines tricolor laser exposure using Cymbolic Sciences’ LightJet 5000™ image-setter with Color Savvy’s color management system and FujiColor™ paper for longevity. Frank McLaughlin, in “From Daguerreotype to Digital,” writes that Luminage is “perhaps the first successful marriage of the new technologies. The result is large format (50” X 50”) printing with very high resolution and color quality combined with predictable color.”

As Wawrzonek looks to the future, he sees a merger of inkjet technology and pigments, which can have higher color quality and greater longevity than dyes. He’s encouraged by preliminary announcements of next-generation piezoelectric inkjet printers from Epson-Seiko, Calcomp and others promising improvements in resolution, color quality, longevity and ability to print on a range of surfaces. While he is still dissatisfied with the quality of inkjet images, he believes it’s just a matter of time before “you can do anything with inkjet that you’d want to do with dye transfer.”

Wawrzonek also believes the development of digital imaging is at a high level that will continue to improve. For one thing, he says, “Color management software has brought us to a place where we don’t have to commit to the printer at the time of the scan; we convert the file to the printer of choice just before going to print.” Because he still believes dye transfer has the edge when it comes to color range and intensity, Wawrzonek intends to explore new ways to marry dye and digital. He’d like to be able to give photographers the opportunity, for example, “to bring us the transparency, have us make the separation negatives for them digitally, create the matrices and roll their own prints.” He’s also been considering the possibility of offering a matrix service, using an image-setter to expose the matrices directly from a digital file. The downside, he explains, is that it becomes more expensive to replace worn matrices. “When you have separation negatives, you can go back any time and make another set of matrices. If you’ve gotten your matrices from a matrix service and they wear out, you have to go back to the image-setter.”

The Response: Wait and See

What lies ahead for practitioners of dye transfer and other forms of fine art photographic printing? A wait-and-see attitude predominates. Optimism for Dr. Paterson’s products is tempered by fresh memories of being stranded once before by a sole source. Only Jim Browning—who has taken product sourcing into his own hands—is confident he can continue with dye transfer as long as he chooses. Image-makers are grappling with all the factors likely to influence dye transfer’s ultimate survival: practicality, attitudes towards artisanship, marketability, marriage to digital technology, and acceptability of alternatives.

Practicality is a consideration of time and expense. Noted portrait photographer David La Claire, for example, who began making dye portraits with his father 47 years ago, has decided with his daughter not to continue the dye business into a third generation for practical reasons. Others have made the decision to make prints that aren’t quite as good, but expect to sell more because “I don’t have to spend my entire life printing.” And in terms of cost, some feel Paterson’s dye transfer materials are out of their range. Yet Jim Browning reports that few have expressed interest in his do-it-yourself solutions.

Looking ahead to current and future generations, many wonder if dye transfer will die along with other painstaking artisanal processes. Browning, however, believes the process is no more intimidating than other artistic media and warns, “If you end up using digital to save time, you get garbage.” Andy Cross, an Australian dye printer, agrees the practice will continue: “If you can imagine that in 50 years people will still be interested in learning how to paint or sculpt, which are much more arduous, then chances are people will still be interested in learning dye transfer.”

Survival may also depend on how much dye transfer prints are valued in the marketplace. Some feel it’s a matter of making buyers aware of the differences so they can come to appreciate them. Others maintain that collectors will always see inherent value in the prints because dye transfer is a rare, classic process. And many are heartened by news of the resurgence of Technicolor™, the cinematic version of dye transfer (see related story), hoping the fine art market will benefit as public awareness grows. On the other hand, many feel that buyers don’t care about technology, but will simply buy what they like. John Wawrzonek states, “Dye transfer doesn’t make or break most images. Anyone who looks only at dye transfer will likely miss many of the most important developments in fine art printing.”

For many, the greatest hope lies in the marriage of dye transfer and digital technology, permitting a savings of time and expense. Luke Powell predicts, “If somebody can provide at a reasonable cost a set of matrices from a digital scan then a lot of people can set up. It’s cheap and easy to do. I can easily imagine a thousand people across the U.S. rolling their own prints.”

Regardless of all other factors, the future of dye transfer may ultimately depend on the ability of other technologies to clear the hurdle of output quality. Expectations differ sharply about whether digital can ever match dye transfer—or at least come acceptably close—in the end result. Gerald Storey, a Sacramento dye printer and photographer, comments, “I think digital printing will develop in speed and affordability. But its robotic sharpness is disconcerting—the world just isn’t that sharp.” Guy Stricherz, owner of the CVI Laboratory in New York City, states unequivocally that he will do dye transfer or no color at all, explaining, “Classic continuous tone optical mechanical printing is our specialty. For color, that means dye transfer—its intrinsic beauty and luminosity are unsurpassed.”

Others, like Powell, are more amenable to digital alternatives. He sees Luminage as a way to produce “an image of museum quality that will last longer than your grandchildren, available for $200-$500 instead of $1000.” Fine-art photographer Jim Wallace, who admits he came to Vermont to shop around, is also encouraged: “Computers give us the resolution we need and the ability to manipulate at least as much as dye transfer if not more, but we haven’t had decent output. Now John Wawrzonek—first with EverColor, then with Luminage—is closing the gap.”

As fine-art photography professionals wait for that gap to narrow, where will they turn in the meantime? Richard Jackson of Flagstaff, Arizona, is a fine-art printer who has carried his knowledge of dye transfer into the realm of Ilfochrome™ with stunning results. After examining his portfolio, more than a few people now see Ilfochrome as a worthy alternative, Wallace and Storey among them. “I’d never considered it before, but then I saw Richard’s prints—absolutely beautiful,” raves Wallace.

The Bottom Line

The question for dye transfer printers is whether or not they will choose to see themselves in a more generic light: as creators of fine art prints who take advantage of whatever tools, technology and materials exist. But the bottom line—for them as well as for those who buy their work—remains the uncompromised quality of the image. Frank McLaughlin sums it up best as he reflects on the Vermont gathering: “Museums, image collectors, designers, archivists—anyone who can see the difference between good and poor imagery—should care what happens here. In today’s world of screaming TV advertising, poor-quality periodical publication and generally deteriorating visual taste, well-made images of pleasing color have become like pearls to the eyes of those who have learned to see.”

SIDEBAR: The Re-Emergence of Technicolor™

Dye transfer printers are elated at recent indications that Technicolor—the cinematic version of dye transfer—is returning to the big screen. The re-release of Giant in 1996, the first American-printed Technicolor feature film in 21 years, has heightened interest in its revival within the film industry.

Technicolor is also called IB printing (for “imbibition”, after the photographic term “dye imbibition”). Technicolor, Inc., ended IB printing in the U.S. in 1974. Technicolor London closed its operation in 1977, but not until they’d made five IB prints of Star Wars for George Lucas.

The restoration of the Star Wars trilogy brought IB printing back to the forefront. According to Leon Briggs, who worked with Lucasfilm on the restoration for over two years, the original negatives had faded only 5 - 15%, well within normal range. But he explained that George Lucas wanted the original color in the restored version. Lucasfilms technicians were able to accomplish this goal for Star Wars, but only because they had an IB print to use for color reference.


I have more articles on this, if anyone's interested.

"1.) Do you split the movies in half like I did on my 2 disc versions and have the authoring software join the two halves together?
2.) Do you keep the movie as one big file and let the authoring software split it?
3.) Can you tell the authoring software where to make the layer break?"


Good questions. All I know about the format is that it's possibly in DVD +R format. On regular 4.7 DVD's, I've seen some bootlegs where each layer was a separate file on the DVD, and had to be accessed manually (how lazy!) I can't imagine why you couldn't designate the split point, but such specialized software might mean we can't use our old, favorite programs with the new hardware (or, at least, not without buying an upgrade. )

"Also, mine have very simple menus with no THX logo. I didn't want a THX logo on my discs or covers as THX wasn't involved in creating the DVD's. I'm not knocking them, but I think they would be insulted to have their logo displayed on something homemade."

I had kinda the opposite reaction. I put in the THX Lucasfilm logo "Let's see it in THX" as kind of a silent "Where's the O-OT on DVD, George?" protest, though I understand your concerns about THX.

"ll of the Star Wars films are 2.35:1 instead of 1.78:1."

Yep. I put my Greedo subtitles in the lower bars.

So, which software is being used to put up screencaps? I'd like to show some examples, if anyone's interested.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Wow, thanks for the article. Most of that was completely over my head, but very interesting indeed.

What a strange time we live in, where Old-Fashioned technology is replaced with new technology that tries to replicate the old (but not quite). People can now tailor make there own specialized versions of movies that are almost as good as the real thing just in their own home (like the OT boots!) when just a decade ago movie studios themeselves probably weren't that flexible.

Who knows what the future may bring... (as long as we don't further ruin the planet)
The original Star Wars trilogy: Our cultural history deserves to be preserved and should be available to the public like all great works of art!
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To answer your questions.

1) You can just keep it as one big file, your authoring software will take care of it.
2) If you have pro level authoring gear, then yes you can choose the layer break.
3) Unfortunately you have to burn a completely full disc. That's right, you have to burn all 8 1/2 GB even if you only use a tiny part of the layer. Means a longer burning process.
4) I am using Sony brand +R dual layer discs that came with the unit.

Re the question about using the camcorder for capture. Read the article I linked to about decimating the Chroma.
Basically I am not talking about 4 to one compression, but 4:1:1 instead of 4:2:2
So you lose 1/2 of your colour resolution by going via DV, plus ON TOP of that you also compress 4 to 1 in size, and then encode for DVD. So it is a bad way to do it if you are after utmost quality (But in reality it looks OK)

I am not using a 'capture card' as such, I am using an SG workstation with an on board lossless 4:4:4 capture system, and then encoding to DVD from that.

but to go ON and ON about how you did it and why you did this and that to improve the quality


I'm only telling people about it because I thought they might be interested in some of the more technical aspects of video, in particular the decimation of colour by the DV format, and the evils of multiple compression.
It's my job, so I kinda waffle on about it coz I love it

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No complaints here. It is kinda what this thread is about, ya know?

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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To LaserMan:

I can see you have been preparing for an very high quality capture!! Perhaps it will turn out as one of the best ever made, and I just want to help you out on doing it.

I read that you were using TMPGPlus as a MPEG2 encoder. I think the best should be CinemaCraftEncoder, you should really use that one.

As regards to making anamorphic, and people saying its uselles because it is done when taking the movie out of the reel and all of that....you are right, at least in a way.

To make it clear, since the original isn't anamorphic there are no quality gains. We will have to resize the picture, and some can say that it will degrade quality, I say it will but if done right, it's so litte its impossible to teel the diference.
Using as a resizing method Lanzcos for example, will give superb results. It wont be better, but it won't be worse to the eye either.

And then everyone with their widescreen TVs will be happy

LaserMan, I suggest you use AviSynth scripts. I don't know if you are familiar with it, but it's an extremelly powerfull way of editing video, and gives you amazing tools.
An excellent place to get advice on video capturing, editing and encoding is www.doom9.org.

To sound, just get the PCM track directly from the LD and its done.
Quality wise its the best option.

Two possible versions:

Non-anamorphic video, PCM sound, no extras or menus, just the dual layer disc full with the best possible quality audio and video.

Anamorphic version, PCM sound (AC3 if not enough space), menus, comments, extras, etc...

As to reauthoring the upcoming DVDs, I'm already warming up for it also

If the deleted scenes came clean and remastered as extras it would done in a few hours, if not it's gone be something to get busy for a long time.
Then we can think about seamless branching and making a SE/OT DVD.
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Hey guys. I just had a couple of quick questions.

1. I know this has probably been answered before, so I apologize for the repeat, but what is the best Laserdisc copy to have. I'm specifically refering to one that is Pre-Sp-Ed., has the missing C3P0 dialogue and the Princess Leia wielding scene, and is good quality. (I'm not even sure about CLV vs CAV).

2. Also, I wanted to know if anybody here was doing a transfer on a Mac...if so, I'm curious to see what hardware/software they are using to capture, encode, clean-up, etc.

3. Also, what have been the bitrates people are using for their encoding...like if it's variable, what are your min. and max.? Also, for anyone preparing to do a dual-layer transfer, like Laserman, what bitrate are you going to use?

Thanks for the help and info!

Jashun
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Just wanted to drop a note to say that I received my DVDs from digitalfreaknyc and the picture looks great. I previously had the Five Star collection (SE), but I wanted the OT so I sent my blanks to digitalfreaknyc. The turnaround time was fast, and I was surprised to find the quality of the digitalfreaknyc set to be superior to the Five Star set.

And what did it cost me? The price of 4 DVD-Rs and a couple of bucks for postage.

Thanks digitalfreaknyc!