How would you have done ROTJ? — Page 4

xhonzi said:

There does seem to be a fear of showing any kind of death in RotJ.  It should be WAR, indeed.

There's tons of death shown in ROTJ. People being swallowed by the sarlacc, eaten by rancor, strangled, killed in speeder bike crashes, shot, ewoks getting killed (complete with one ewok getting all bothered over another's death), Vader dying, Yoda dying.

Reviving an old thread from the depths of time.

What would I have changed about ROTJ?

1.  Instead of Sebastian Shaw OR Hayden as the third ghost, Lucas should have photoshopped Little Ani in with Yoda and Ben.  He could have said "Yippee!" or "Wizard!"

No, wait, you didn't ask what should change in the ROTJ, SE.  Sorry, my bad.  Oh, and all the stormtroopers should be retroactively colored to match the various color schemes of the prequel clones while we're on that angle.  Anyway, onward.

2.   Instead of one Death Star to blow up, there should have been two, just to up the ante.   But maybe they look like giant cubes now, or tetrahedra, just to be different.

3.  Yoda doesn't die on Dagobah.  Instead, he hitches a ride to Endor by hiding in the trunk of Luke's X-Wing like Sprittle and Chim Chim always did in Speed Racer.   

Lum the Insatiable said:

2.   Instead of one Death Star to blow up, there should have been two, just to up the ante.   But maybe they look like giant cubes now, or tetrahedra, just to be different.

 I'm on record rather liking this idea but only if the second one was a surprise.

ChainsawAsh said:

The basic thrust of ROTJ is good - rebels gain intel on a way to deal a death blow to the Empire, but it's really a trap to draw the rebellion out in the open and destroy them for good.

Here's the specific things I would have changed:

- We don't see the Emperor until the final act, when Luke does
- NO FRIGGIN' DEATH STARS!
- The final battle involves an epic space battle above Coruscant, intercut with an epic ground battle where rebels of all alien species (diversity is important here) are fighting to gain control of the capital
- The Emperor isn't actually on Coruscant, he's on another planet
- Luke is forcibly captured by Vader rather than giving himself in
- Vader is a badass who wipes out huge quantities of troops on his own
- When Vader captures Luke, it's very clear what his plan is - he wants Luke to join him and overthrow the Emperor so they can rule together
- Leia is NOT Luke's sister
- Han dies, and Luke & Leia are together at the end (possibly at Han's funeral)

There are other changes, but this is the overall gist.  I'd really like to write a completely alternate ROTJ, honestly.

I second each point of all of this.

Instead of killing Jabba and escaping with Han.

Why not recruit Jabba by pointing out that a Death Star rich Empire is bad for buisiness?

VideInfra78 said:

ChainsawAsh said:

The basic thrust of ROTJ is good - rebels gain intel on a way to deal a death blow to the Empire, but it's really a trap to draw the rebellion out in the open and destroy them for good.

Here's the specific things I would have changed:

- We don't see the Emperor until the final act, when Luke does
- NO FRIGGIN' DEATH STARS!
- The final battle involves an epic space battle above Coruscant, intercut with an epic ground battle where rebels of all alien species (diversity is important here) are fighting to gain control of the capital
- The Emperor isn't actually on Coruscant, he's on another planet
- Luke is forcibly captured by Vader rather than giving himself in
- Vader is a badass who wipes out huge quantities of troops on his own
- When Vader captures Luke, it's very clear what his plan is - he wants Luke to join him and overthrow the Emperor so they can rule together
- Leia is NOT Luke's sister
- Han dies, and Luke & Leia are together at the end (possibly at Han's funeral)

There are other changes, but this is the overall gist.  I'd really like to write a completely alternate ROTJ, honestly.

 

I second each point of all of this.

me too. ROTJ really deserved a story that would have taken it to new heights instead of the same old same old. The next sequel could include the other Jedi hopeful Yoda mentioned in ESB (it wasn't Leia. not if Obi-Wan believed Luke was their only hope. durrr).

I posted this in another thread. Here it is again from those who didn't read it the first time.

DuracellEnergizer said:

There are a number or things I'd do differently. Instead of a new Death Star I'd come up with a new type of Star Destroyer, larger than a Super Star Destroyer, like this one:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Eclipse-class_Super_Star_Destroyer

And I probably wouldn't have cast Ian McDiarmid as the Emperor. Don't get me wrong, I liked his performance in ROTJ (less so in the PT, but he still had a bit of charm there), but I would have taken Palpatine's character in a whole different direction.

The dark side is supposed to be seductive, yet Lucas never went and made any dark siders seductive themselves; they all looked old, or deformed, or stereotypically Satanic. I would have done the opposite. I would have cast a woman as Palpatine - preferably young and at least moderately attractive - and brought back Clive Revill to do Palpatine's voice. Instead of snarky and sarcastic, Palpatine would sound calm, sauve, and at times even genuinely remorseful. He would be this great dark father - mother? - figure.

I probably would have also replaced the Ewoks with Wookiees, or some other non-dwarfish race.

Instead of another technological terror super weapon maybe it should have been some devastating dark force attack the Emperor was cooking up. We could have finally seen a demonstration of how the power of the Force is actually stronger than the ability to destroy planet.

i dunno... how about something as simple as the Emperor waving his hand and several Rebel ships getting obliterated?

OzoneSherrif said:

Instead of another technological terror super weapon maybe it should have been some devastating dark force attack the Emperor was cooking up. We could have finally seen a demonstration of how the power of the Force is actually stronger than the ability to destroy planet.

i dunno... how about something as simple as the Emperor waving his hand and several Rebel ships getting obliterated?

 I like the idea of having the Emperor do something that shows how powerful the force can be, but not so much this idea specifically.  I like the idea of the force being tightly knit with living things.  Sure it can move inanimate objects via telepathy, but that's not where the real power lies.  The real power lies in the ways it can be used to monipulate or overcome other people (like the mind trick).

But taking your basic idea in another direction...  I'd borrow the idea someone else had where the rebels are led into a trap, thinking they're going to wipe out the empire once & for all in a big battle on and over the capital planet.  But during the battle, the emperor uses the force to manipulate the rebels & maybe incapacitate them.  I'm invisioning something like what happens when Professor X targets all the humans via Cerebro in Xmen 2....  In the heat of battle, suddenly huge chunks (or maybe all) of the rebel forces are unable to fight due to mental interference, extreme pain, hallucinations, or something (or maybe all of the above?).  This could serve dual purposes too.  First to show the true power of the darkside, and secondly to act as the trigger the breaks Luke's resolve so that he gives into his anger and first strikes out against the emperor (which would then lead into the duel with Vader, just like in the film).

danny_boy said:

theprequelsrule said:

danny_boy said:

What would I have done to Jedi?

 

Nothing.

 

It is fine as is.

Agreed. This thread is unworthy of OOT fans.

Indeed!

I find it hypocritical that fans here curse Lucas for changing the OT,yet have no problems with introducing hypothetical changes of their own!

Then I'm not sure you understand what hypocritical means.

Is there a single fan here that would deny everyone the original versions?  Even kenkraly understands that part of it.

danny_boy said:

Picture quality/Sound quality is not the only pre-requisite for enjoying a movie.

Well, I'd probably have gone with what Gary Kurtz had in mind.

Gary Kurtz:

One of the reasons Jedi came out the way it did was because the story outline of how Jedi was going to be seemed to get tossed out, and one of the reasons I was really unhappy was the fact that all of the carefully constructed story structure of characters and things that we did in Empire was going to carry over into Jedi. The resolution of that film was going to be quite bittersweet, with Han Solo being killed, and the princess having to take over as queen of what remained of her people, leaving everybody else. In effect, Luke was left on his own. None of that happened, of course.

It would have been quite sad, and poignant and upbeat at the same time, because they would have won a battle. But the idea of another attack on another Death Star wasn't there at all ... it was a rehash of Star Wars, with better visual effects. And there were no Ewoks ... it was just entirely different. It was much more adult and straightforward, the story.

There's a lot of undercurrent in Star Wars that, if you take it on the surface, a four-year-old can really enjoy it – but there's a lot else going on, under there. In that sense it's multi-layered, and Empire is as well. That's the thing that bothered me a bit about Jedi and certainly about Episode I, is that those layers, those subtexts – they're all gone. They're not there. You accept what's there on the screen – it either works for you as a surface adventure, or it doesn't. But that's all there is. There's nothing to ponder.

Given that we can never get our hands on Kurtz's version of Jedi, though, I'd probably do a version which attempts to live up to his ideas while still using that which is good from the original.

The film would open with the Imperial Planet - a very dark industrial world with the Imperial Palace dominating the skyline. Though we would not see his face until the end of the film (except for a few statues which litter the palace's interior), the Emperor would berate Vader for his failure to capture Skywalker. Vader would play the humble servant, though it would be made clear that he is still plotting against the Emperor. These sequences would be based on unused concept art created by Ralph McQuarrie. I'm sure you've all seen it.

http://lostepisodes.fateback.com/graphics/pictures/conceptart-coruscant1.jpg

http://www.theforce.net/episode2/newspics/rmq-coruscant3.jpg

http://lostepisodes.fateback.com/graphics/pictures/conceptart-coruscant2.jpg

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/books/art/coruscant1.jpg

Luke's discussion with Yoda, and the build up to their discussion, would be quite different. Rather than simply appear in Yoda's hut for a conversation, Luke would discover his home in disarray and the fragile Yoda in a rapidly deteriorating state. He would light a single torch and begin their conversation, in which Yoda reveals that Vader is indeed his father. Yoda would mention that there is yet hope not just for the Rebellion but for Luke's father, the "other" trapped in the twisted mind of Vader. After Yoda dies and fades away, Luke would look forlornly around the lonely hut and say to himself that he "cannot go on alone".

The disembodied voice of Obi-Wan would respond with "Yoda will always be with you". Coaxed out by the voice, Luke would enter the swamp and see the spirit of Obi-Wan hovering over the water. I always felt that having Obi-Wan sit down for a one-to-one with Luke robbed him of his spiritual mystery. By placing a physical barrier between Luke and the ghost of Obi-Wan, we can emphasise their separateness.

Rather than offer the incredible explanation of "points of view", Obi-Wan would simply admit that he had lied. "When I first knew you, Luke, you were a young man desperate for guidance. I feared that if you knew your father's fate, you would follow him along the dark path. I don't expect you to forgive what I did, but, please, understand it." After Obi-Wan encourages him to defeat Vader, ignoring Yoda's belief that there may yet be hope for him, he would state that he has already overstayed his time in the realm of the living and begin to fade from existence, offering Luke some parting words of advice. Desperate, Luke would hurry to the fading image, even partially submerging himself in the marsh water. However, the ghost would finally fade, leaving Luke to decide his destiny alone.

The impressive puppet of Jabba the Hutt would be kept, though many of the other puppets would be replaced with more credible alien models, some based on more complete versions of the simple masks which appeared in the first film. The pig-like Gamoreans always bothered me. In some of the Rancor concept art, they appear as slightly Orcish creatures. This is the version I'd go with.

http://www.df.lth.se/~ola/Starwars/Return/images/return6.jpg

I'd keep some of the more iconic images from these scenes - bikini, carbonite reveal, Rancor etc. - though I'd remove the failings, such as Salicious Crumb, the death of Boba Fett and the extremely flawed rescue plot.

The finale of the movie would feature an assault on the Imperial Planet. The Rebels reason that the Emperor's increasing centralisation of power (as we hear of in Star Wars, with the dissolution of the senate) is simply part of his authoritarian style, but there's another element to it. All along, the Emperor has been coaxing the Rebels to attempt an assault on his planet, which houses more and more of all the effective members of government. Centralising power was both about control and deliberately placing a target on his head. His plan comes to fruition when details are "leaked" to the Rebels about the present location of the Imperial fleet, which is spread out desperately searching for them. The Rebels calculate that an assault on the palace could be successful before the Imperial Navy could ever descend on them or take notice of the attack. Of course, it's all a trap.

What the Emperor does not count on, however, is that the populace of the Imperial Planet are preparing to turn on him. The oppressed aliens of the lower reaches of the city, who the heroes encounter, prepare for a violent insurrection against the Imperial military at the request of Leia. The aliens include a group of Wookiees, and we learn a little of Han's relationship with Chewbacca, and how Han had initially been an Imperial recruit. After witnessing the brutal repression of aliens first hand, Han defected and started a life of crime. This revelation is difficult for Leia, of course, who has devoted her life to opposing the Empire and its agents. Discovering that Han is not merely a "scoundrel" but possibly a former participant in Imperial crimes drives a wedge between the two.

Driven by a newly awoken sense of guilt, Han throws himself into the battle with reckless passion. In the chaos that follows, the explosive charges for destroying the planetary deflector shield are damaged and can only be rigged manually. Han must choose between self-preservation or sacrificing himself for the cause of the Rebellion. In this moment, the differences between Leia and Han are reconciled. Leia initially prepares to rig the charges herself, but Han inists that Chewbacca bring her to a safe distance while he does the job himself. In this way, Han truly makes the transition from the-guy-who-shot-first to a martyr for the cause of freedom. Obviously it takes on a far more personal dimension, as it could be said that it was more his love of Leia that drove him to perform the necessary sacrifice.

Vader is similarly overcome by his better impulses and destroys the Emperor just as he is about to kill Luke. The redeemed Vader shares a final moment with his son before dying, as in the original. The Rebels infiltrate the planet, fire at the palace reactor and destroy the Imperial Palace. Luke escapes in an Imperial shuttle which passes into Rebel held territory under heavy watch. After a moment of tension, Luke emerges carrying Vader's body. He is then permitted to cremate him. During the cremation Leia reveals Han's death to him and they embrace in front of the pyre.

Bearing the emotional scars of the battle they have endured, Leia and Luke are then comforted by the sight of the celebrating citizens who have risen up and won their freedom. Luke has passed beyond adolescence. Previously, Obi-Wan truly seemed like an infallible being, but now that Luke has reached the same level, he sees his failures, he sees that he was human too. He forgives him for having lied, but having witnessed Vader's redemption, he realises that the clear dichotomies Obi-Wan had offered him were inadequate. He develops his own sense of the Force, of himself and his potential. Leia, on the other hand, must turn away from the man she had loved and accept the burden of forming a new society. Luke, who has been touched most heavily of all by the conflict, cannot follow her on this new journey. They part ways and Luke heads off into the galaxy, to seek understanding and healing for himself.

Not exactly a typical Hollywood ending, but, hey, I think me and Kurtz would have liked it. Thinking about it, though, it'd probably have to be changed so that both Han and the Falcon are destroyed at once, because the two are so caught up with each other. To leave the Falcon lying around when Han is gone seems inappropriate. At least Chewie could form a connection with the Wookiees, the Falcon would simply be inherited by Lando, which would seem to add insult to injury for Han.

Phew. That post went on much longer than I intended. I applaud any person brave enough to plough through it all.

The irony is if Lucas stayed with the supposed Kurtz Jedi version which is not 'as happy' as the movie ended up being, I probablyl wouldn't have liked it at the time when I was 10 years old in 1983.

But the movie would have aged better, and the overall story arc from SW to Empire to Jedi would be a much better story years later.  As a kid, I wanted all the heroes to survive and have one big picnic at the end on Endor, but seeing the movies now, a bittersweet ending that has alot of subtext would have made Jedi and the Trilogy that much better today.

I'm not exactly an OUT fan.

I'm a OUD fan (I'm fanatically devoted to the first two films).

The others I like bits of but see them as deeply, deeply flawed but historical significant films (the SEs sit in the same area for me as some of the changes work but many of them don't).

I don't have a problem with alternate versions of any film, just as long as the original versions are considered the prime versions and remain available for anyone to legally screen theatrically and watch at home.

This thread isn't about making changes anyway.

It's about how we personally would have done the films.

There are threads on the Fan Edit boards for actually changing the films and I support them wholeheartedly (including the two I'm fanatical about).

The official position that the 'SEs of the the hour' are the sanctioned versions of the films is undermined by having non-official SEs just as much as by people skillfully trying to preserve and maintain the OUT and people signing the petition to register their dissatisfaction with the current state of affairs.

TheoOdo said:

Well, I'd probably have gone with what Gary Kurtz had in mind.

 

Gary Kurtz:

One of the reasons Jedi came out the way it did was because the story outline of how Jedi was going to be seemed to get tossed out, and one of the reasons I was really unhappy was the fact that all of the carefully constructed story structure of characters and things that we did in Empire was going to carry over into Jedi. The resolution of that film was going to be quite bittersweet, with Han Solo being killed, and the princess having to take over as queen of what remained of her people, leaving everybody else. In effect, Luke was left on his own. None of that happened, of course.

It would have been quite sad, and poignant and upbeat at the same time, because they would have won a battle. But the idea of another attack on another Death Star wasn't there at all ... it was a rehash of Star Wars, with better visual effects. And there were no Ewoks ... it was just entirely different. It was much more adult and straightforward, the story.

There's a lot of undercurrent in Star Wars that, if you take it on the surface, a four-year-old can really enjoy it – but there's a lot else going on, under there. In that sense it's multi-layered, and Empire is as well. That's the thing that bothered me a bit about Jedi and certainly about Episode I, is that those layers, those subtexts – they're all gone. They're not there. You accept what's there on the screen – it either works for you as a surface adventure, or it doesn't. But that's all there is. There's nothing to ponder.

 

Given that we can never get our hands on Kurtz's version of Jedi, though, I'd probably do a version which attempts to live up to his ideas while still using that which is good from the original.

The film would open with the Imperial Planet - a very dark industrial world with the Imperial Palace dominating the skyline. Though we would not see his face until the end of the film (except for a few statues which litter the palace's interior), the Emperor would berate Vader for his failure to capture Skywalker. Vader would play the humble servant, though it would be made clear that he is still plotting against the Emperor. These sequences would be based on unused concept art created by Ralph McQuarrie. I'm sure you've all seen it.

http://lostepisodes.fateback.com/graphics/pictures/conceptart-coruscant1.jpg

http://www.theforce.net/episode2/newspics/rmq-coruscant3.jpg

http://lostepisodes.fateback.com/graphics/pictures/conceptart-coruscant2.jpg

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/books/art/coruscant1.jpg

Luke's discussion with Yoda, and the build up to their discussion, would be quite different. Rather than simply appear in Yoda's hut for a conversation, Luke would discover his home in disarray and the fragile Yoda in a rapidly deteriorating state. He would light a single torch and begin their conversation, in which Yoda reveals that Vader is indeed his father. Yoda would mention that there is yet hope not just for the Rebellion but for Luke's father, the "other" trapped in the twisted mind of Vader. After Yoda dies and fades away, Luke would look forlornly around the lonely hut and say to himself that he "cannot go on alone".

The disembodied voice of Obi-Wan would respond with "Yoda will always be with you". Coaxed out by the voice, Luke would enter the swamp and see the spirit of Obi-Wan hovering over the water. I always felt that having Obi-Wan sit down for a one-to-one with Luke robbed him of his spiritual mystery. By placing a physical barrier between Luke and the ghost of Obi-Wan, we can emphasise their separateness.

Rather than offer the incredible explanation of "points of view", Obi-Wan would simply admit that he had lied. "When I first knew you, Luke, you were a young man desperate for guidance. I feared that if you knew your father's fate, you would follow him along the dark path. I don't expect you to forgive what I did, but, please, understand it." After Obi-Wan encourages him to defeat Vader, ignoring Yoda's belief that there may yet be hope for him, he would state that he has already overstayed his time in the realm of the living and begin to fade from existence, offering Luke some parting words of advice. Desperate, Luke would hurry to the fading image, even partially submerging himself in the marsh water. However, the ghost would finally fade, leaving Luke to decide his destiny alone.

The impressive puppet of Jabba the Hutt would be kept, though many of the other puppets would be replaced with more credible alien models, some based on more complete versions of the simple masks which appeared in the first film. The pig-like Gamoreans always bothered me. In some of the Rancor concept art, they appear as slightly Orcish creatures. This is the version I'd go with.

http://www.df.lth.se/~ola/Starwars/Return/images/return6.jpg

I'd keep some of the more iconic images from these scenes - bikini, carbonite reveal, Rancor etc. - though I'd remove the failings, such as Salicious Crumb, the death of Boba Fett and the extremely flawed rescue plot.

The finale of the movie would feature an assault on the Imperial Planet. The Rebels reason that the Emperor's increasing centralisation of power (as we hear of in Star Wars, with the dissolution of the senate) is simply part of his authoritarian style, but there's another element to it. All along, the Emperor has been coaxing the Rebels to attempt an assault on his planet, which houses more and more of all the effective members of government. Centralising power was both about control and deliberately placing a target on his head. His plan comes to fruition when details are "leaked" to the Rebels about the present location of the Imperial fleet, which is spread out desperately searching for them. The Rebels calculate that an assault on the palace could be successful before the Imperial Navy could ever descend on them or take notice of the attack. Of course, it's all a trap.

What the Emperor does not count on, however, is that the populace of the Imperial Planet are preparing to turn on him. The oppressed aliens of the lower reaches of the city, who the heroes encounter, prepare for a violent insurrection against the Imperial military at the request of Leia. The aliens include a group of Wookiees, and we learn a little of Han's relationship with Chewbacca, and how Han had initially been an Imperial recruit. After witnessing the brutal repression of aliens first hand, Han defected and started a life of crime. This revelation is difficult for Leia, of course, who has devoted her life to opposing the Empire and its agents. Discovering that Han is not merely a "scoundrel" but possibly a former participant in Imperial crimes drives a wedge between the two.

Driven by a newly awoken sense of guilt, Han throws himself into the battle with reckless passion. In the chaos that follows, the explosive charges for destroying the planetary deflector shield are damaged and can only be rigged manually. Han must choose between self-preservation or sacrificing himself for the cause of the Rebellion. In this moment, the differences between Leia and Han are reconciled. Leia initially prepares to rig the charges herself, but Han inists that Chewbacca bring her to a safe distance while he does the job himself. In this way, Han truly makes the transition from the-guy-who-shot-first to a martyr for the cause of freedom. Obviously it takes on a far more personal dimension, as it could be said that it was more his love of Leia that drove him to perform the necessary sacrifice.

Vader is similarly overcome by his better impulses and destroys the Emperor just as he is about to kill Luke. The redeemed Vader shares a final moment with his son before dying, as in the original. The Rebels infiltrate the planet, fire at the palace reactor and destroy the Imperial Palace. Luke escapes in an Imperial shuttle which passes into Rebel held territory under heavy watch. After a moment of tension, Luke emerges carrying Vader's body. He is then permitted to cremate him. During the cremation Leia reveals Han's death to him and they embrace in front of the pyre.

Bearing the emotional scars of the battle they have endured, Leia and Luke are then comforted by the sight of the celebrating citizens who have risen up and won their freedom. Luke has passed beyond adolescence. Previously, Obi-Wan truly seemed like an infallible being, but now that Luke has reached the same level, he sees his failures, he sees that he was human too. He forgives him for having lied, but having witnessed Vader's redemption, he realises that the clear dichotomies Obi-Wan had offered him were inadequate. He develops his own sense of the Force, of himself and his potential. Leia, on the other hand, must turn away from the man she had loved and accept the burden of forming a new society. Luke, who has been touched most heavily of all by the conflict, cannot follow her on this new journey. They part ways and Luke heads off into the galaxy, to seek understanding and healing for himself.

Not exactly a typical Hollywood ending, but, hey, I think me and Kurtz would have liked it. Thinking about it, though, it'd probably have to be changed so that both Han and the Falcon are destroyed at once, because the two are so caught up with each other. To leave the Falcon lying around when Han is gone seems inappropriate. At least Chewie could form a connection with the Wookiees, the Falcon would simply be inherited by Lando, which would seem to add insult to injury for Han.

Phew. That post went on much longer than I intended. I applaud any person brave enough to plough through it all.

impressive! leaves the possibility of sequels following Luke on some new journeys. with R2 of course.

danny_boy said:

TV's Frink said:

danny_boy said:

theprequelsrule said:

danny_boy said:

What would I have done to Jedi?

 

Nothing.

 

It is fine as is.

Agreed. This thread is unworthy of OOT fans.

Indeed!

I find it hypocritical that fans here curse Lucas for changing the OT,yet have no problems with introducing hypothetical changes of their own!

Then I'm not sure you understand what hypocritical means.

Is there a single fan here that would deny everyone the original versions?  Even kenkraly understands that part of it.

Well as I already said-Lucas has only deprived fans of seeing the original versions in good quality(Blu ray/anamorphic standard def DVD)-as opposed to denying them the original versions in any quality-big difference.

Oh, ok.  Forum closed.  :-/