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Evil Empire... — Page 10

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hmm...
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."
Qui-Gon Jinn (R.I.P.)
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Originally posted by: Bossk
Overkill, yes. I agree. But, like I said, I'm afraid to think of what Japan would be like today if the fighting had continued.


The same, but Japan would have a little bit less money. The war was indeed over, if it wasn't for the bombs, Japan would eventually surrender, and everything would be the same. Oh we wouldn't have Godzilla. And maybe the nuclear race between USSR and the USA would never had happened - not as it happened, almost blewing up the world.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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I think Japan would've lost another 50% + of what remained of its population after the bomb. No cities would have been left standing whatsoever. Rebuilding would have taken another 10-20 years. I don't think they were ready to surrender.

These are just what I think though. As I've said, there's no way for any of us to know.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
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Kevin A
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true, and im glad that i wasnt alive back then to witness that.
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."
Qui-Gon Jinn (R.I.P.)
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I'm leaning towards the "they'd have fought until death" option, just like they did on those small islands, where their hideouts were clensed by flamethrowers... and yet they preferred to commit suicide rather than surrender... but hey - I'm not Japanese, I have not studied their history nor culture to the point I could be stating some facts... so these are just my ignorant beliefs.

Anyway, if you are interested in diplomatic "games", go to this page to find an extensive library of old documents, declarations, treaties, speeches, diplomatic notes etc.
I saw the original theatrical release of the Old Trilogy on the big screen and I'm proud of it...
How did I accomplish that (considering my age) is my secret...
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I've heard a lot of this stuff before. A good read nonetheless.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
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yup, quite funny actually.
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."
Qui-Gon Jinn (R.I.P.)
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In a twisted way.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
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kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
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yes. but when will the fucker learn? he is NOT fit to lead the strongest nation in the world, much less and country for that matter.
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."
Qui-Gon Jinn (R.I.P.)
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Ideally when he's defeated in the next election.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
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kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
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Originally posted by: Bossk
I think Japan would've lost another 50% + of what remained of its population after the bomb. No cities would have been left standing whatsoever. Rebuilding would have taken another 10-20 years. I don't think they were ready to surrender.

These are just what I think though. As I've said, there's no way for any of us to know.


to tell you the truth if the fighting had continued then japan would have only become a country 15 years ago when the USSR disbanded. that mean that they would have no money, and they would probably stil be rebuilding. right now i class japan as one of the richest contries in the world. i consider them to be frist world nation and a MEDC. if the fighting had continued they would be a 2nd or even a 3rd world country and definatly not a MEDC. again yes the A bombs were over kill but that is what the US had to do to get them to surrender.
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Shimraa, you mean, they would be communists? I doubt it. The thing is, if Japan had surrendered by its own, there would be a whole lot of sanctions imposed on Japan, even more than it was. Did you know Japan was not allowed to have an army fighting outside it's country until Iraq, because of the WW2 sanctions? Well, they would impose a tigher control on Japan's economy so it wouldn't develop, but it's economy would explode in the 80s-90s. It would be like South Korea today.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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I knew about the Geneva Convention regulations forbidding Japan to have an military presence outside its own country. I didn't know that had been overturned so I was surprised as hell to learn that Japan had presence in Iraq. Threw me for a bit of a loop.

Shimraa, what's MEDC?
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
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kapgar.com
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MEDC is a term used ingeography nowadays. it meas More economically developed country. LEDC means less economically developed country. they use these terms now instead of 3rd world first world etc.
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Thank you. I had never heard that before. I'm so used to First World, Second World, and Third World.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
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Shimraa, you mean, they would be communists? I doubt it. The thing is, if Japan had surrendered by its own, there would be a whole lot of sanctions imposed on Japan, even more than it was.


Not really, the entire reason that the US dropped the bomb, was because the Japanese were know to be so tenacious. You only have to look at the kamikaze pilots to get an idea of what fighting of Japense soil and man to man would have been like. The casualties that the Japanese inlicted in battle were huge. Taking the war to japan would have been to high a cost in men for both sides. They wouldn't have been a third world country, nor would there have been a country to impose sanctions on, they would have wiped themselves of the map. I mean they still thought that their emperor was God at the time. Think Jihad and then turn it nationalistic and religious. It would have been a massacre. The bombs prevented that. (on a side note, there was no way that Japan would have become communists, for the same reasons as above)
gtfo
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Originally posted by: Skipper
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Shimraa, you mean, they would be communists? I doubt it. The thing is, if Japan had surrendered by its own, there would be a whole lot of sanctions imposed on Japan, even more than it was.


Not really, the entire reason that the US dropped the bomb, was because the Japanese were know to be so tenacious. You only have to look at the kamikaze pilots to get an idea of what fighting of Japense soil and man to man would have been like. The casualties that the Japanese inlicted in battle were huge. Taking the war to japan would have been to high a cost in men for both sides. They wouldn't have been a third world country, nor would there have been a country to impose sanctions on, they would have wiped themselves of the map. I mean they still thought that their emperor was God at the time. Think Jihad and then turn it nationalistic and religious. It would have been a massacre. The bombs prevented that. (on a side note, there was no way that Japan would have become communists, for the same reasons as above)


Berlim was bombed and took over by the soviet army at the end of the war. Is Germany on the map? Last time I checked, yes it was. Japan was ready to surrender, as it became clear the war was stalemated, but unfortunaly people give more reason to the "Enola Gay" than to that simple fact. And no, they didn't think their Emperor was God, ever heard of the Meiji Era revolution?
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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hey you ever heard of the berlin wall. that wall seperated the half of germany that was takin over by the soviets. and when was the wall torn down?
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1989.

Princess Leia: I happen to like nice men.
Han Solo: I'm a nice man.

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thank you and what happened when the wall was torn down?
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Berlim was bombed and took over by the soviet army at the end of the war. Is Germany on the map? Last time I checked, yes it was. Japan was ready to surrender, as it became clear the war was stalemated, but unfortunaly people give more reason to the "Enola Gay" than to that simple fact.

In the battle of iwo Jima, after ten days of bombing, 70000 marines went up against 27000 Japanese and lost a third of their force. Ever heard of the battle of Okinawa? The first battle on Japanese soil was the bloodiest battle in history, more people were killed than in both atomic blasts, that's just an example of an outlying island too. In actual fact, only a few government officials were willing to surrender, the army and the ordinary citizens wished to keep fighting. They did surrender, on the condition that the emperor was kept in power. That was refused. After the surrender, the army tried to kidnap the emperor in order to continue.

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And no, they didn't think their Emperor was God, ever heard of the Meiji Era revolution?

Ater the dropping of the bombs Hirohito spoke briefly to the Japanese people over the radio to announce the surrender. This was the first time his astonished subjects had heard the voice of their Emperor ever. What did he say? "I am not a god." If you don't believe me go google Hirohito and God, the majority of japanese citizens actually believed that he was God on earth.
gtfo
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Yes it was the first time they've ever heard his voice, mostly because the emperor was (still is) recluse, only a few people ever got in contact with him or even heard his voice.

Well, next time I'll also bring some historical facts and numbers to back me up on this.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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Originally posted by: Skipper
If you don't believe me go google Hirohito and God, the majority of japanese citizens actually believed that he was God on earth.

This is largely because of how the Japanese constitution was written @ the time. It vested sovereignty in the Emperor and established Shintoism as the state religion. This, of course, was one of the first things to go when the Constitution was reformed following WWII.

Princess Leia: I happen to like nice men.
Han Solo: I'm a nice man.

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Originally posted by: GundarkHunter
This, of course, was one of the first things to go when the Constitution was reformed following WWII.

Of course, that was one of the conditions set out by the allies. The only reason Japan was able to surrender was because the emperor agreed to this. The japanese people wanted to keep the emperor in power.
gtfo